Stay NA or go to the Dark Side?
 

Edit: Added a new poll up top, please feel free to explain your choice

Alright guys, so I'm at a fork in the road with my Z. I'm in Afghanistan again, this time as a contractor. With that being said, I now have some cash to put into my Z. As you can see from my sig, I have a lot of parts on it already. The problem is, it is not making the power that I thought it would or should. It's currently at 306 whp and 236lb ft of tq. With the Motordyne manifold, it was 304 whp and 243 lb ft of tq. At it's highest (end of march), it was at 316 whp and 248 lb ft of tq. I replaced the precat passenger side 02 sensor because it had some funny readings, or not reading at all. Still, with the mods t has, on a dynojet, I was guesstimating in the 320-330 range in hp after tuning. I know there is something else going on with it that I haven't found yet, I just don't know where to look anymore.

Here are some mods that will be going on the car regardless of what I choose to do. I want it to perform regardless if I take it on a track day or cruise around the streets of Las Vegas.
New flywheel and clutch | new rear diff | new sway bars and coil over setup | brake lines, fluid, and pads.
I do want to replace the front bumper with a Stillen unit or something similar, to improve airflow into my intakes and brakes (Stillens brake cooling kit). I am also looking at a hood replacement to help vent some of the crazy heat coming out of the engine compartment.



Now the big question that I have is should I stay NA, or go some type of forced induction? If I'm sticking NA, I seiously need to find a way to push at least. 350whp. It's not because I want a bigger Z penis, it's because I want it to stay in line with the current and future crop of performance cars coming to market that the Z competes with.

If I were to continue going NA, I'll most likely be looking at the JUN cams. Anything else would cost an astronomical amount of money.If I were to go with a supercharger, I've been taking a serious look at GTM's twincharger setup they've been building. The three big questions with that setup is will my big a$$ oil cooler fit with their intercoolers, and will my headers fit with their system. Lastly, is I have NST pulley's installed, I'm not sure how it would hold up with a SC's running on it. And lastly, if I were to look at a turbo setup, I prefer twins. With dual intakes and a V6, symmetrically it makes sense. Again, big question is will my 72 row oil cooler fit. Problem is, I will have to remove the headers. With the turbo and supercharger option, I'm not chasing numbers. I know they will perform. With the exhaust still being a Y pipe, and having 18" resonators, I'm thinking that would have to be replaced with something else as well.

So what I need from you all and your combined brainpower, expertise, experience, and opinions, is what option should I go with. Anyone can chime in, excluding Trolls and flammers. The build won't happen for a while, but parts would start ordering while I'm out here. At the earliest, the build will start is i January, at the latest, probably in April or May next year. And thanks all in advance for your help with this.

if i could do it all over again to save a few pennies that is
id do a gtm supercharger or turbo kit and be done with it more power then you can use. with out displacement its hard getting cars over 3000lb to move fast and its costly less you gut the car to save weight something i cant imagine doing
get a nice kit get the car running properly believe me you will not be mad even thought i am not super happy about the stillen kit i cant be mad with over 400rwhp

bad side is its a little more maintence on your side since the car did not come that way and worst case something goes way bad and the motor pops

good luck and do your research theres a lot of info out there on this stuff

Being out west the GTM is out because they are not CARB legal, For one, Two I still dont trust blocking the whole front of the car with oil coolers and twin intercoolers and you trying to drive around in 100+ temps. If you go FI I would look at the Akuma turbo kit or the Stillen SC, Mine out of the box (Custom tune only) Made 412 WHP. So if your only looking for 350 WHP there you go,

Pay the Z down sell it get something with more power. Your in a position where everything is on "hold" other then you paying for it to sit there.

Your going to easily spend another 12-15 into the car. I pesonally if i were in your shoes would just pay it down, or save money which ever work better for you let the car go, and then buy something else. you going to end up spending over 50k all said and done easily. You will never get that return out of the car.

When you get back and drive it the way it is you will feel awkward as it is driving the speed limit. Or at least that how i felt coming back.

If you really are going to keep it, then do as you wish.

What does carb have to do with Vegas?

CARB is California Air Resource Board. And being he in California, it isnt as bad as people make it out to be. Yeah are there more "rules" sure, dont break the first couple that will get you pulled over and you will be fine. my 2 cents.

Just going off of what I have read on here, Wont he have to pass the same test as the CA guys. I know most of them wont get the GTM kit just for that.

No carb is CA only there are other lesser tests nation wide. He is not in California so he should and will be fine.

I gotta agree with this.

and this.

TT it... I may be biased though. Look out for fast intentions TT kit coming soon!

Regardless, I'm paying the Z off while I'm out here, as well as my Wife's car, doing home upgrades, a disaster fund, etc. I'm getting paid pretty good here. In regards to selling the car, that's probably not going to happen. I love the car, I love that it's purposeful. The only thing I really feel is that it's just down on power compared to the competition. I haven't taken it in for warranty work at all in the year that I've had it besides a checkup where they checked off that I had no check engine light (it did) and that the windshield washer fluid was full an operational (I removed it). I also could care less about a CARB approved kit, That's for the tree huggers in CA. Vegas only checks the engine codes and sticks some sh1t up your pipe. No visual inspection. Most don't get paid enough to care. Please keep in mind that I'm on shift for 12 hours with no forum access (internet is locked tight), so responses will be delayed....

Sounds like you love your Z... boost it man :tup:

Alright so I added a polling system, take note, selling my car was not on the list :P I'm really trying to get a discussion why I should go one route and not the other. I've read most of this forum front to back. I'm just trying to get some relevant feedback from you all. After all this is said and done, I really don't want to have to troubleshoot my car. I just want to know it works, and works reliably.

If you got some money to throw around, get the JUN cams and let us know the results. Everyone is waiting to find out the gains on these.

I kinda like this option because it requires less modification than the others. I can keep my existing parts and install these with some valvetrain upgrades and retune. I would definitely take it to a bigger shop that knows their way around the Z compared to my local place. I would imagine maybe around $4,000 with parts, install, and tune

TBD....

i would say whoever takes the plunge on the jun cams will be opening a whole bag of worms. BUT i would love to see what they do on a car. BUT i voted gtm tt....

:rofl2:

I voted TT but fir the cost of opening and messing with the heads you would have near parts cost for a stroker motor, that would be guaranteed NA power, but the most cost effective approach is boost.

Lol, I was looking on GTM's site on their stroker motors. They had long blocks available installed for a bit under 10k. They had an option for high compression too. They said it was for the VHR, but the description was all VQ35DE. I also saw an option to just buy everything needed for it, but that still entails a lot of work to the block (boring, balancing etc) Something like that, you just can't click add to cart button and have the full solution.

What really peaked my interest was when they said it's rated up to 600hp NA, but again, it was vague and saw no proof. I do agree that turbo's are the easiest and cost effective way to make a bunch of power. It would still be pretty damn awesome to be pushing 400+ whp without snails. Oh, good idea fairy appeared. JUN cams on a bored out stroker motor. If it's torn apart, would it be that much more to implement? And I can keep my existing parts. So many choices. Luckily I have plenty of time to figure out the way ahead.

Edit: I think I'm going to PM GTM on the gazillion options that they have. I may be shooting past the moon with this one lol.

So I've been doing a bit of research on the power bands of superchargers and turbochargers. Consider this me thinking out loud. It doesn't matter if the hp ratings are the same on the supercharger and the turbo kit. The turbo kit makes way more power under the curve and the torque output is just glorious. Someone needs to do an overlay of a 500whp dyno with a supercharger and a turbo. TT's cost serious coin, but they are definitely worth it.

Anyone reading the GTM twin supercharger thread, Mike just confirmed that long tube headers will fit and the oil coler can most likely find a place as well. I know they have a TT kit with a similar intercooler setup up front that should be wrapping up as well.

I'm still trying to figure out why SC's lose boost with headers compared to stock stuff. Everything is before the intakes. From what I can see, it would be a huge benefit as is will reduce back pressure and increase the velocity of the exhaust. Not only that, but shouldn't the scavenging effect of the headers have a positive impact in preventing back flow into the combustion chambers? I'm wondering if it's because there is decreased back pressure throughout the combustion process. This means that there is less resistance as the supercharger is compressing the air into the intake manifold. I'm also assuming this does not affect positive displacement superchargers. Can someone tell me if I'm on the right track? I've been trying to google my a$$ off and haven't found a concrete answer besides that it happens.

Edit: Didn't want to throw another new post down.

So I talked to the Wife about my intentions. I threw out $10,000 and she didn't flinch. She said she doesn't care what I get so long as everything we need is done. IE new floors, countertop, paint, back yard, bedroom set. So I'm in the clear. :happydance:

So far, the poll is kinda close, but still not enough votes for anything decisive. So far, GTM TT is in the lead. I also emailed them regarding options, as they are probably the best source of information.

Pay the car off first.

Realize that you're on the internet. So discuss your goals and concerns with experienced engine builders/tuners only. Tell them exactly how YOU want your drivetrain to perform? Don't just talk peak HP numbers.

Consider this:
More power...potentially more problems. Do you want to have fun, or have headaches? Have spare cash for a blown motor/tranny as Nissan won't cover it. What if your wife gets pregnant...what happens to the Z?

In the end...is it really worth it? You could always put that money towards your house or kid's college fund. FI or not...you still drive a Z. You win either way.

I just never understood this & no answer requered.
 

Your car has very nice H.P. but I don't see your name on the top 1/4 mle time list. You can't & I'm sure you don't race on the street. So what will another 200 H.P. do for you?

Reminds me of when this young guy showed me a very high H.P. dyno sheet. I was impressed, so I asked him how quick is the car. He said that person doesn't race, and besides the engine blew up on the dyno.

So why are you showing me this piece of paper? I asked :confused:

My Wife won't be getting pregnant by me any time soon, so if that occurs, there are bigger issues at hand. I emailed GTM for assistance. We don't have kids either :) But as I've posted before, it's not something that I can do any time soon. I already have a plan in place, both the Z and Maxima are on the list of things to pay off. As well as my Wife current school debt. The money to be used on this endeavor is a bonus I'll be receiving at the end of my contract. I appreciate the financial concern, and that's exactly why I talked to the Wifey about it.

Regarding Andre's comment. I don't take it to the 1/4 track very often. I last went in April and I'm no John Force. What I do intend to do thoughis go out to Sprint Mountain Raceway, Fontana, Laguna Seca, and some other places my buddies are going to take their Z's, GTR's, S200's, EVO's etc and let loose. So I have my places to take it out and romp around. And what does it matter what 200hp will do for me? It's my car, my money, and it's for my pleasure. We all drive Sports cars here, we bought them for entertainment, not for practicality.

And lastly, I'm not a number chaser, but it infuriates me that I spent $5.5k on parts, labor, and tuning, and I gained 36whp as of where the car sits right now. That is not normal, and should have been around another 20whp. What this is is my way of guaranteeing that I get what I originally intended, and then some, just because I can.

I didn't open this thread taking everything as gospel. I wanted some input, for ideas, debate, just like now (Thank you BTW for this :) I enjoy healthy arguments), I'm gauging interest. I'm not ignorant in the least bit with this platform. I do A LOT of research on my own and gain a full understanding before I pull the trigger on anything with this car. I'm not investing anything into the car, I'm dumping money into it, as long as I understand that, my Wife understands that, and I can afford it and any technicalities, I'm good with that.

I think intention wise the new GTM TD06 turbo kit would fit the bill and my own for that matter, it's a good amount of power before overkilling.

I understand the want for an NA setup and I wouldn't want to try to turn you away from it as it would be a very different and enjoyable build, but from the money standpoint a simple bolt on turbo option will be the best per-cost ratio.

Adam from Z1auto did a build back when I had my 350Z where he did an NA non stroker setup, but that car screamed with Tomei 268 cams and 11.3 compression (where I believe most of the power bump came from) and full bolt ons. That being said the DE motor was never as potent as our current motor nor did it have the thickness of powerband. After his build his power was comparable to our cars bolt ons, pushing 303whp. I dyno'd my stock 350Z at 228whp, so being an *** and assuming that the VQ37 is as advanced over the 350 as it is, I wouldn't be surprised to see 400 or just under 400 to the wheels.

Factoring all the parts in, going as budget as you can on it, you would probably be pretty close to 15g's into the motor build at that point...and as stated before a GTM TT will sit you at 430 to the wheels pretty easily and without breaking a sweat.

I don't think it's wrong to go for numbers personally as you will be enjoying the car in whatever form you choose, it is your car and if you want 500hp you can enjoy that just knowing it is lurking underneath your foot. :tiphat:

Personally I would go with the BP turbo kit when Sasha releases it. They have proven themselves on the 350z's. The NA route is going to be really expensive with minor gains. Cost to performance, FI is going to be the better bet.

The boosted performance kit is a single twin scroll turbo kit that is very DIY friendly. Maintenance would be very easy if something should break. Not to mention Sasha is on top of his customer service game.

It really depends on what you want this car to be OP. Your most demanding setting is being able to get this on the track without problems. If that's the case, keep it NA and focus on making it reliable and adjustable all around. Wheels, tires, suspension, fuel system, weight reduction, brakes etc etc. Massive power is a lot of fun, but its kind of limited to where you can use it. Pushing the stock engine internals on a track with any type of forced induction is a bit risky, so you should pretty much account for double your budget should the unforeseen happen. You hear a lot about cars on the forum going twin turbo's, but rarely hear about those that trashed thier engines... which have been known to happen. I know it's tempting to want to be the guy with the most HP, but there's always going to be another guy with more. You just really need enough for what you use the car for.

Thanks for the replies. As for taking this car to the track, I'm definitely concerned over reliability and temps. I feel I can work around the temp issues. The oil cooler I have has way more than enough to cool oil on a boosted motor. I think an upgraded radiator and fan unit will handle the fluid temps fairly well. Now I feel that different types of boosted applications are going to affect some component of the vehicle more than the other. Turbo's will definitely put a lot more stress on the driveline. The amount of torque they create and how it builds it's power is not linear like an NA Z powerband. There is a torque surge and hp starts shooting for the moon. Does anyone know how 5th and 6th gears handle this power on a MT tranny? Now with the supercharger, it puts more stress on the motor as it's belt driven and requires it to spin faster to reach similar power levels as a turbo. Centrifugal superchargers build power very smoothly, but it's not an off the line rocket like a roots type or a fast spooling turbo/s.

Speaking of NA, I saw that GTM sells a 500bhp NA VHR motor, ticket price of that sexy beast is 20k+. It's a competition engine and cost competition money, but I still eye raped it for about 45 minutes.

Edit: Via email, Mike @ GTM is recommending the twin charger setup based on my budget, mods and goals. It makes sense, and it was a setup I showed interest in. We shall see. On the polls, forum members have TT as 1st, JUN cams and NA 2nd, and then the twin charger 3rd.

has anyone (individual or company) done an NA 370 build...

Nothing major because no one (individual) wants to up front the R&D money to do some new parts for the car and hope they show gains for a NA v6. For a company/team they are limited in racing leagues on mods many times so they focus on other upgrades they can do (suspension/aero/cooling/etc).

Well that sucks. we may be sitting on an NA gold mine and never kno it...

It's going to cost a Gold mine to do it as well, and therein lies the problem. To push 400whp, your going to spend twice as much than running a supercharger, to push 500whp, closer to 2.5x the cost of a TT. The only people who will be paying for that are teams that have rules to play by. Starting price for a wetsump 500hp motor was almost 25k... not including install. A dry sump 400hp na motor was 35k. That sir is the price of a used 370 and a new 370 respectively. t makes no sense to do unless costs are no concern and that person most likely makes enough money to buy something better than a 370Z.

So I got my quote back from Mike@GTM and they will be running a promotion on the new twincharger system. There were a few recommendations that he added to the quote which I had an eye on already. All of which were massive cooling upgrades to keep the Z running cool during hot laps in this SW heat. He also stated that this will work with my existing oil cooler which is reassuring as I paid a small fortune for it.

I'll let GTM make their pricing announcements,but he recommended, radiator, shroud, and SPAL fans. He also recommended running their external water/oil cooler in series with my oil cooler. This is primarily due to the extreme climate here, so I don't see everyone needing such heavy duty cooling with their vehicles unless they are running them hard for an extended period of time. The only thing not included on the quote that I think I'll be picking up is their traction control system. It's a good safety feature as opposed to either the crappy OEM TCS or off and having that much power. Total price I'm looking at so far is just over $11k for the parts alone. Add another $1200 for the traction control module and $1500 for install and any additional tuning, I think $15k is a good estimate. I would anticipate a turbo setup to cost more with the same cooling options.

I personally say save that 15k even though you got it like that! Congrats on the contracting job and stay safe man!

Stay NA...

I would look into other supporting mods! Gears/clutch/flywheel/tires/aero...then driver mod! If you need to line up on the street...NOS...folks over look it but it comes on faster and is a huge jump in power without the heat factor of other FI systems. Plus you won't have I baby the car around all he time like a regular FI car!

I plan to stay NA yet want the same things you looking for. Especially with UpRev I can have my maps for ever occasion...

/bench modding

Thanks for the input. I'm surprised by the number of people hat chimed in to push the NA route. The polls have NA just behind the GTM TT. It would definitely be easier for me to pick up the other mods I was looking into if I didn't go FI. I can get a new clutch, flywheel, rear diff, the cams, buy back the motordyne manifold, new spark plugs, injectors, fuel pump (e85),new seats, harness, 2nd set of rims/tires, and necessary brake upgrades. I would still be way under in terms of price.

With NA, you can still purchase a lot of items which will improve your car a lot, clutch/flywheel, brakes, cams, intake, etc. You will hit a point where you need to pick a direction and just go down the rabbits hole and do not turn back. Both routes will be expensive.

I would vote for NA also, even though I have SC, because I really want to see a great NA build for the 370z. You look like you have the time, patience AND money to do it properly and enjoy the results.

I wish VVEL was something we could tune already. I really think it has great potential to change the game on every front. FI really needs it to tune overlap at higher boost pressures. NA can really use it to open a new can of worms. I think it has the possibilities of allowing some crazy exhaust cam profiles to run with it. I think the combination of VVEL tuning and a custom ground set of some aggressive exhaust cams can push this engine to the next level. If I knew when that day would come, I would be on that faster than Sir Mix A Lot on Nikki Minaj. I do have a year of waiting regardless of how bad I want to do anything.

Before I do anything to it to it, I will be replacing the spark plugs as I think they have been affected by a few thousand miles of being untuned and running pig rich. I think While I'm home on vacation, I'll get them replaced, the Motordyne manifold thrown back on, and retuned with temps that aren't in the 100's to see where I stand. I'm planning on a small trip to Cali as well while I'm home, I'll run on a dynojet while I'm there as well so I an see the elevation difference and if my shop back home has a stingy dyno.

I put down 270whp DIN bone stock on that dyno (avg was 266whp), and at it's highest 316whp DIN. He give me everything in DIN because it reads higher and I convert it. My friends bone stock 2012 M3 put down 332whp DIN on that dyno and that's rated at 414hp. Doing the math tells me that drivetrain loss is at about 20% when measured on this dyno.

Reversing the formula put my car at around 395 hp at the crank when I made the most hp. With it sitting at a tuned 306whp DIN right now, it's right around 381hp. If I can find that lost hp, I won't be as frustrated as I am now. Adding exhaust cams may just be all I need at that point. I'll be running M3 levels of engine performance in a car that weighs 400lbs less. I won't be chasing LS3 C6 vettes any time soon, but I'm also not 50+ or b!tching about my sh!tty seats and as$tastic interior either.

Am I making sense here? I want to be sure I'm not extrapolating out of the realm of what's considered common or realistic with the 370Z. I want to be realistic. If I can put down over 330whp on that same exact with those cams, I'll be happy with it's NA performance. 25whp from where I sit now is in my opinion, absolutely achievable with those cams.

EDIT: For clarification, I started my calculations with known hp at the crank. Example 1: 332 x .20= 66.4 (265.6whp) Example 2: 414 x .20= 82.8 (331.2whp)
I took factory crank hp and determined the difference between it and the dyno results to be 20% which is shown above. I then extrapolated the known crank hp and compared it to my dyno results at 316 and 306 respectively using 20% as my drivetrain loss to determine the new crank hp results. (I'm no mathematician, but this is the best way I could explain)

na can be badass on these vq's. idk if anyone caught this months modified (or superstreet. cant remember) but it had an article on an 04ish 350z that was a built NA car and it was making 377whp. thats with the old single mani configuration too. 400whp na is not unattainable for our cars

you will not see anyone getting 400whp N/A with the VVEL !!
hell even with those custom parts that I made which I spend hours for the research on how and what to do, Im still quite far from the 400 mark !!
but lastly on that dyno I had a good 15whp edge over other peoples who where also fully bolt-on.

that vq35 which did 377whp was probably a quite expensive NA built with some big cams and lighter rotary parts (fywheel/clucth/pulley) and other parts.

just an exemple from a guy I know