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This is gonna be long!
SS firehawk we WERE in the same position only difference is you have the money lol I love the 370z! why else would you get this car if you didn't? it's less practical, more expensive then the competition especially when you have cars like the 5.0,SS, EVO, STI around. I say Put the JUN cams in and with all your mods you will have a respectable car. This is a NA car stay NA. It's the least expensive project you listed in the polls. Even with stage 1 SC kit Cars like C63, M3, full bolt on 5.0 that can reach 450 NA will still kick you in the teeth and if your not out running around racing then whats the point in going FI? Just to say you have X amount of power? I dont want you to be one of those guys that does a project like this and then a year later sales the car! not worth it. Plus if you go with the JUN cams you will be unique and can always add other things down the road like if they do crack VVEL! You seem like you love the Z as i do too. I had a 350z and now a 370z. I want my Z to also keep up with the new and up coming cars on the road And i wanna see if the Cams can add a good 20 RWHP. If you go FI get a Twin turbo kit. I like SC kit's because you can run LTH but turbo kits are the better technology. Go hard or go home! for me its not worth spending big money on the 370z because im getting a used GTR thats the kinda car you wanna put all your money into because you actually see results. With a 370z I have to spend 30K just to beat a C6 ZO6 Ha no thank you. Spend 18K on a swizter p800 and blow 90% of cars off the road. Granted the GTR cost more. Like i said I would get a greddy twin turbo kit - The Greddy Twin Turbo tuner kit - 6 new upgraded Denso injectors - Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump - osiris ROM editor license - professional installation - professional dyno tuning would cost you 12,775.00 (Zfever price) But if i were you and you had 20k to spend i'd go NA all the way! you have the supporting mods just get the Jun cams ($675) with a Brian crower stroker kit ($5,184) maybe ACL rod and main bearings (dont touch the heads) and little other things. Lets just say 8K in parts. Brian crower stroker kit comes as a fully balanced system and ready to install all orders are Special Orders you can get any bore size, any compression ratio and while your over there working they could be ready to go for you when you get home :). My next point is people say the cost to do a NA build is to much!?! but yet i see Z's and G's with a stroker kit plus FI kits! and supporting mods! Volk rims, Body kits is that not expensive? Member Coxjchollywoo said he has seen a NA G37 make 400 with a Stroker kit. It can be done. Member GAbe3d has a all motor g35 with 350 HP and 320 TQ. id much rather have a NA beast with a crazy powerband and a bad @$$ sound. Mind you a NA car is lighter the a FI car no? Member Rednezz on the my350z has Tomei 272 cams, Cosworth heads, pistons, rods stock crankshaft mad 320 RWHP on a VQ35DE motor! So 400 to the wheels on this motor can be done. yes you need money but gosh how much would labor be on a stroker kit?! Stroker Kit + labor how much could that really be? NA delivers strength and reliability to your Z but a TT Z is a time bomb. Going FI and if your car is your DD you will have headaches and issues and your car will be down one time or another no matter if it is a small issue or big issue. FI is the best way to get power we all know that but it's to risky to me because if my motor goes bomb im screwed. But that's me, that's my opinion! |
So I spent the better part of 18 hours putting a list together of things I wanted or could get with a NA build. I tried to do as much research as possible with everything I picked, some stuff I'm still very ignorant of, or may be a better choice and I don't know. Here's the list
Tanabe Sustec Z40 Coilovers $1686 (captwholesale.com) 44.63 shipping Tanabe Sway bars F+R $352 (captwholesale.com) 40.00 Shipping Cusco Differential $1299 (captwholesale.com) 23.26 Shipping Eibach Front Camber Arms $377.58 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping SPL Rear Traction Links $280 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping SPL Rear Toe Links $259 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping SPL Rear Camber Links $245 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping SPL Lockout Kit $59 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping SPL Wrench $39 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping Nismo Diff Cover $119.95 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping Motul RBF 600 Brake Fluidx2 $31.50 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping Teflon Coated Brake lines $109 (conceptzpercormance.com) 15.80 Shipping Hawk HP+ Front pads $180 (conceptzperformance.com) Combined w/ above Hawk HP+ Rear pads $120 (conceptzperformance.com) Combined w/ above JWT Clutch / Flywheel $760 (conceptzperformance.com) Free Shipping DBA 5000 front rotors $524 (captwholesale.com) 24.10 Shipping DBA 4000 rear rotors $255.55 (captwholesale.com) 17.20 Shipping Hood struts $80 (conceptzperformance.com) Stillen Brake Cooling Kit $299 (Z1performance.com) 39.99 Shipping OEM Spark Plugs $95 (Z1performance.com) Combined w/ above Redline Oil Change kit $63.50 (Z1performance.com) Combined w/ above M370 intake manifold $400-585 (Unknown) 10.00 Shipping Y pipe resonator $154 (motordyne) 9.71 Shipping JUN CAMS $640 (JUN) GTM Upgraded Fuel System $1699 (gtmotorsports.com) GTM Traction Control System $1299 (gtmotorsports.com) Any suggestions would help. BTW, this entire list was about as much as the twin charger and cooling mods needed. And I have no idea how much getting all this installed would run me. Granted I can do some of it on my own. The Resonator is just incase I want to run that instead of my Cat, and my dumb *** sold my M370 manifold, shoulda kept that thing. |
Last time I checked Gtms racelogic tcl is around $2300, kinda pushes the numbers a bit more
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It may have been, I was too lazy to find it with my super slow internet here :) Everything is an exercise of patience
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I am continually stunned every time I look at this thread, and people are pushing the "NA=reliable" claim. In reality, at power level that are even REMOTELY comparable, you are going to see better reliability with boost every time. You can get to 400ish whp no problem with mild boost and a conservative tune, and probably run the car for 100k+. Trying to get to even 360whp NA is going to mean cracking the engine open, and running a significantly more aggressive tune...not to mention probably cutting down on the air intake filtration. Look at the 350 Megan370z posted... it is running ITBs, and a hella aggressive tune, not to mention all the other crap. Trying to wrench power out of an NA build means a whole lot more risk to the engine, all with a much lower reward. If SS wants to do it because he can afford it, I'll be one of the first people to subscribe to the build thread, but if he does it, it should be with eyes wide open to the risks. |
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On the other note....GTM kits installed correctly with reasonable boost are also lasting the test of time also.... So it goes both ways! NA has a little more pride it in...:tiphat: OP don't forget gears/TUNE/100shot |
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NA with JUN Cams and existing mods 1st place!!!!!!
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I didn't stroke my motor for reliability...I did it for POWER http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3...26_4281768.jpg Quote:
b) happens all the time, especially when you are only picking up a couple of horses Quote:
To get results of a similar magnitude from an NA build, you are having to run an extremely aggressive tune that kills driveability and generates a whole ton of extra heat to deal with. You are fundamentally limited by atmospheric pressure, and this leaves you no other option than trying to get closer to the edge. It comes down to basic chemistry and physics. The only way an "NA build" is going to be more reliable than an FI build is if: A) you put together a crappy FI system B) you are talking low-dollar, low-power builds (ie, bolt-ons) |
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For the average Z owner yes! All bolt-ons/a tune/supporting mods is what I'm talking about I rarely see folks dive into a small engine build due to the minimal gains seen from cams or anything else. Haven't seen/followed your build...do you still drive with the same confidence? I'm not trying take anything away from boost, it's just the way a boosted Z car is driven 9 out of 10 times is sadden that's all. |
Both NA and FI have proven reliable, given a proper budget and knowledge. IF that were not the case, half the new cars coming out wouldn't be small displacement and turbo'd. It's all a big physics game. Not every motor needs to run a closed deck and low compression to run forced induction. But damn near every motor will have to be re engineered if that boost is turned way up. Keep boost pressure low, improve flow, and you get more performance per psi. Driveline reliability, good luck to those half shafts if your tires hook up. Our motor's as will only get so far without increasing displacement in naturally aspirated form. There are really only a couple things left to do. Exhaust cams, VVEL, increase compression, and octane. We don't have the luxury of Direct Injection. The JUN cam's don't seem like they are going to make a drastic difference looking at the specs. I'm sure I can get some custom ground ones taking it up just a bit further. Our Heads have a lot of unlocked potential if we could ever figure out how to take advantage of them.increasing compression doesn't make sense, because if we are going that deep, we might as well increase displacement. Regarding octane, E85, that's as easy as replacing a fuel pump, lines (if necessary), new injectors, and a tune. I like both options and they have their advantages and disadvantages. And thank the Car Gods we have a tuner market supporting both!
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You know see a lot of good arguments but those people who have voted for the jun cams why don't you get the cams and get them installed. So far I am the only one so far that is getting these installed. There are great discussions for both sides. This is a good thread. I don't expect massive gains from getting these cams installed and this is.and sucks so bad they don't have a dyno here so I can't post numbers but I will show video so you guys can see it. My car is going in next week to get them installed so stay tuned....
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firehawk? so what are you leaning toward? And believe me i would have been the first to get the jun cams if i had the money its not about waiting to see someone else do it it's about cash flow. Lost my job. Thank God for savings. I hope one day ill be starting a thread about having a NA stroker Z
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I'm still a bit up in the air on it all. But talking with GTM, their twin charger kit is sounding the more enticing route regarding FI options. I think if I were to do FI, I would do that. Labor would be less than the TT specifically because I don't need to touch anything on the exhaust. My shop cringes at the word "headers" and this car. I don't think I would run the tandem oil cooler like GTM recommended, mine is F'n large. I would rather use that money on something else. I know full install cost on this would be around $1500 including tuning if needed.
But I keep being drawn back by NA because it is the least expensive option. It allows me to focus on other aspects of the vehicle besides the engine. The two biggest things are flywheel/clutch and a new diff. Brake upgrades are minor, and I consider the suspension as the best thing they got right from the factory. Tires alone go a long way with this car. I think overall it would be the better car at this point, but would only bring it up to par with the likes of other track duty cars coming from the factory like Boss 302's and 1LE equipped Camaro's. I'm still up in the air on it all. I haven't heard the definitive argument for one or the other. If there was a way to put together a stroker Z within my budget though... |
Noticed this morning that GTM lists JUN cams on their website for order now. They are selling it for $699. Doing the math, trying to purchase directly from JUN was $640ish. With the changing exchange rates and hassle of ordering, a $60.00 difference isn't bad.
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*wispers softly*
Do it |
Well my Bday is next month, and my sisters punk *** just got an Ipad 3 from the folks, (our family still goes out of the way to get gifts for each other [and I'm turning 30...] I think a little group effort on this won't hurt :P I'm out of country still, so even if I do buy it now, it won't be until either December or when I return before they are installed. Wait.... LIGHTBULB. (in a "Despicable Me voice"). I kinda like the sound of December. I'm supposed to be home on vacation for about 10 days.
Regardless if I go boost, the increased overlap shouldn't affect it much when running under 10 psi. It would be breathing better, so there would be less pressure overall, but the power will still be there. I would have to take it to my local shop to have it done within a reasonable time. They quoted me $1500 for the twin SC install based on what they saw on the forums. That was a pretty good deal. On the other hand, they do specialize in FI. I think I just may do that. I'll get my spark plugs replaced while they are at it. |
ummmm you forgot the Boosted Performance mid mount twin scroll turbo kit..... That's the only way I would go IF I went turbo....
http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...rbo-build.html |
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When Sasha gets up to full production on these kits, there will be some very happy boosted customers all over North America and a user installable, friendly, reliable, powerful option for single turbo customers... Choice is great! |
So I didn't want to create a new thread on this, so I'm raising this one from the dead. I have a lot of new questions to ask...
After looking at Staples results on his Stage II on meth, it got me thinking. What is the weak link on the our stock bottom motor? I was thinking pistons. And what was the 550whp limiter that came up to this "max" number? I know torque was a big factor, but I saw that as more of an impact on drivetrain. I was looking around on here for a couple hours and couldn't find the concrete answer I was searching for. Now here is the second part of the question. If high octane (E85) and meth injection prevent detonation, why do I only see meth injection as the defacto way of doing things? Why has there not been a FI'd E85 running stock guts or compression? Hell, is it possible to tune the motor to use both? I'm still going back and forth on what I want to do, but it's coming down to BP's kit and the GTM twin SC kit. They are both very different from each other. I know that no matter which way I slice it, the turbo will make more hp and tq in the middle of the power band and at lower boost pressures. But this is what my concerns are and it's not the kit, but my environment. It routinely breaks 100 in Las Vegas, I would say for 1/4 the year is over 100 degrees. The turbo is going to put a higher heat load for the oil cooler and radiator to dissipate. I will be upgrading the stock radiator with what ever I choose to do, even stick to NA, it's just the smart thing to do. I don't know how much overhead is in my system and I don't want hot weather to impede on my fun button on the floor. My headers, intake and Y pipe all have to be removed and sold. Yes money back in my pocket, but it's a PITA to sell things, and even a bigger PITA to remove the headers. There are a lot of exhaust changes to make it happen. I think the whole system is top notch and a much larger value than any FI product available. The twin supercharger packaging allows me to keep everything off my headers the same. And I still have the choice to run with or without a cat. The motor still keeps it's stock characteristics, but with a lot more go. I wouldn't have bought the car if I didn't like the motor and how it build power. The Rotrex SC's are pretty awesome. They basically have a mini CVT. They have their own oil cooler. There is no additional load from them on my existing oil cooler and it can just work on keeping motor oil cool. Again radiator will be upgraded and with the whole front end coming off for the install, that makes things super easy. The torque doesn't go anywhere but up, almost like the hp curve, and the motor doesn't stop making power until redline. No flat spots, no dips, just smooth power. With wanting to jump into some track events on occasion, I think the supercharger might be the better way to go. Lastly, does it make sense for me to run E85 instead of meth or have ability to run both depending on fuel? I'm looking at this as a cooling and reliability standpoint. I don't know how meth/water is tuned or if it can be turned off with a map change. Can't help but think about the benefits these have with the hot weather and elevation. I know I asked a bunch of questions and appreciate the help. My Wife is on board with everything. She is taking the car in December for an oil change, spark plug change, resonator install, a M370 reinstall, tune check and some dyno passes with the resonator and HFC. I'm hoping the cooler weather will give me a more accurate look at my baseline and untuned numbers from Feb and March earlier this year. These are the last round of mods before she goes dormant till I get home. Thanks all in advance for the help |
To try to hit a few of your keys points.
-You can do meth & E85, just need a good tuner which there are plenty that can do it. -E85 is not popular because 1) a lot of guys are getting the power they want on just 91/93 octane fuel 2) E85 is slowly going away in many cities. I have seen some stations stop offering it which limits the ability to run the fuel. Now the plus side to Uprev is you can run multiple tunes so if you want E85 for a week then you have that map and then want 93 you can run on that with just a quick switch of a tune. I am honestly curious to see how the engine will run, without any engine work, on just E85 & meth and to see if there are any benefits. You might send an email off to Sam at GTM and to BP about your ideas and see what they say. They both may jump at it or maybe caution that meth plus 93 oct is enough. |
Thanks for the suggestions and answers Dreamer. With me being away from my car for another 9 months, I emailed GTM over the weekend. Gave some options regarding my car, their twin SC kit, whether they want to do it, or have my local shop do it. Didn't discuss the fuel and meth questions I had as this was an epiphany last night while looking at Staples dyno sheet. And down the rabbit hole I went looking for answers. But haven't been successful.
I guess the big underlying question that I've failed to point out is will E85 or 91/93 (only one station in Vegas carries 93) + meth or e85+meth help stock motors hold up with forced induction. 12 PSI was kind of known as the glass ceiling before reliability is compromised. Would the aforementioned push those boundaries of reliability further? What physically breaks if detonation is not the culprit? I don't know all what the FI guys are modifying in their motors besides lowering compression or increasing displacement. If the only purpose of reducing compression ratio is to have a larger safety net when running FI, why can't the E85+ meth do the same job with the benefits that comes with it. A cool running high compression FI motor sounds like a dream for performance and efficiency. Lean out the fuel and advance the timing, it could be a wrecking ball on or off boost. Disclaimer: I am only theorizing and am no expert. I'm presenting questions because I'm ignorant and could not answer these myself. Please don't tell me to buy another vehicle or build my motor, I'm just throwing ideas out that could be useful in some capacity, and maybe not anything I'm doing, but for someone else. |
The part that holds us all back from passing 550whp 500tq is the connecting rods. They will break if put under anymore strain. Boost is not a limiting factor. I am working on a custom setup myself. E85 will be run full time in my car. We are using a turbo that hasnt been used before but we are aiming for 15-20lbs. E85 makes it almost impossible to predet.
E85 is not going away.lol The US is looking to roll out different grades of ethanol based fuels. Also Every Sheetz gas station in central PA has undergone the process to carry E85 so if anything its growing in popularity. |
Being in Las Vegas, I haven't seen a problem finding E85, but 93 is nearly nonexistent. There is seriously one gas station I found off of I15 and Charleston Blvd.
I mentioned the 550whp limitation in a previous post, I understand what your trying point out, I was just mentioning another limitation number being thrown around. The primary reason I'm looking at these options is the extreme heat. It will help maintain consistent power and prevent timing from being pulled because of heat. I do have the NST pulley system on the car, but the belt size difference is so minor, I'm not sure if it will pose a problem with this kit, I believe the same serpentine belt is still running through the crank and alternator. Would it be recommended to upgrade the fuel pump and injectors on w/e I order? And if so, what size would be recommended? |
FWIW, I was running 93+meth on my STI. I asked my tuner about E85+meth, and he talked me out of it. From what he said, the E85 is actually a higher octane than 93 with a 50/50 water/meth mix. In effect, I would be lowering the octane of the fuel by adding the meth in. If you're staying with bolt-ons, you would only need a fuel pump and injectors if you plan on running E85. 91 shouldn't need it.
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If I had regular access to E85, the thought of meth never would have crossed my mind. The additional octane was nice, as it allowed me another 4 psi. The cooling effect dropped my EGTs about 150 degrees at WOT. Still, I never felt 100% comfortable with it since it introduced another point of failure to the system. Even with the failsafes, if the kit fails under boost it's likely you just bought yourself a new motor.
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How much psi are you pushing? Ever get it to the dyno yet? Weather is starting be friendlier in your area.
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On the Z? Only 9psi. Haven't gotten it to a dyno yet, but that's on the to-do list for next month. I was referring to the STI I used to have. I was able to go from 20 psi to 24, with a drop in egts by running meth.
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E85 is a lot more complex to run.. You'll need fuel pump injectors and lines to make it work properly.. I've only seen then used on big builds with big numbers. For stock block e85 is not necessary as you'll be reaching the limits of what the stock block can handle on pump gas. You COULD run either e85 or meth for extra piece of mind I suppose.
Firehawk you got a lot of questions there but u need to decide which route YOU wanna go. No FI is safer than the other, it's all in the tune. Superchargers r nice, turbos r even better IMO. The torque is a blast and to get kicked back in the seat is something only turbos can give you. If you're lookin to build the motor later down the road then I'd suggest turbos. If ur sticking to stock block I'd still suggest turbos. Judging by how you seem to be worried about keepin the motor safe then you're "safest" bet would be supercharger. You'll get hp but no real torque. That will help you stay somewhat on the "safer" side with a good tune. Just remember once you go FI it is hard to ever go backwards. You won't wanna ever turn down boost, you'll almost certainly want more. More boost, more mods to turn up boost "safely". Best bet is to decide ur future goals and go with that plan in mind to grow later down the road. A nice turbo will keep u happy on stock and if u ever decide to build you can always turn up the boost and still be happy. Once u to supercharger that's about it, to get more gains will cost u more money on an upgrade when a turbo can do all that from he beginning to end. I'd suggest either Gtm or Sasha's kit. Good luck. |
I'm not looking at E85 as a plateau buster of power. In terms of power output, both will reach my goals and have plenty of reserve to hit 650-700whp with a built motor, possibly more. It runs so much cooler than 91 or 93, and don't need to run meth. With E85, I can run at lower boost levels, lower temps, and it's readily available. I can switch the tune to 91/93 if needed.
Now, if someone offers to buy my long tube headers and Y pipe with a cat and optional resonators at a price that makes it worth it to take off, I'm all ears. It's $1800 brand new and would only be worth the trouble if I sell for 3/4 the price. Now if someone offered $1800 for my full exhaust setup, I'd get rid of it and go BP with the F.I. exhaust on it. But selling stuff is a different thread and haven't put much thought into it. My exhaust sounds like no other 370Z I've heard, much higher pitched, it's an anomaly. I now have sentimental feelings toward it :P It's a PITA to part stuff off, and a big reason I'm looking at the GTM TSC kit. |
It's always hard to part out.... But would definitely be worth it if ur goin FI.. You'll definitely be much happier with the end result.
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Cars are terrible investments, so it depends on how long you plan to keep the car and whether it is worthwhile. Honestly, forced fed is super fun and well worth it! It sounds so good.
Yet, I still lust for an NSX (let alone a twin turbocharged one). [shrugs] |
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cars aren't investments
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Yeah, in my opinion thinking about a car as an investment is well, a bit retarded. |
It's no different than a woman, there is no ROI, it just keeps taking your money with the only return being "satisfaction".
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