Clutch problems
 

Alright guys, so I recently bought a Southbend TZR clutch and flywheel with ZSpeed's CSC. I have 2 problems.

After the clutch was installed it felt good. Engagement was at the top (like stock) and I had about 1'' or less of pedal play. After I took it out for a drive everything seemed ok pedal wise. After about 5-6 miles of driving, pedal play increased to almost half of the total pedal swing (60% play 40% engagement) and engagement point was no longer at the top.

Since then I have tried adjusting the pedal inside the cabin, gravity bleeding for about 20min, then regular bleeding for about 30min pumping about 20 times between valve openings. After I am done pedal feels ok but the same thing happens after I drive it for a a few minutes.


The other problem I have is that regardless of the pedal feel, it is hard getting into any gear after putting the car in neutral. This only happens with the engine on...
I start the car in the morning, force it into 1st and drive around, all gears engage ok. I get to a red light, put in neutral, release clutch... when I try to go into 1st it doesn't want to go, I have to force it in again. It does the same thing with any gear I try from neutral. Once I push hard on it and get it into gear, I can row through all gears again with no problem..

I think issue number 1 is air in the system but I don't know how that could be since I've bled the sh1t out of it. Issue number 2 sounds like the clutch is sticking or CSC is not pushing all the way in.

Advise?

You're having issues like me? I thought SB already remedy this issue by now.

I had my clutch pedal readjusted near the top as well, and it's still sticky getting in and out of 1st and 2nd gear on cold starts. I have to put it in 3rd the back to 1st to get in. While stuck, the car still crawls.

Weather hasn't been so great, so I've not had a chance to test the 1-2 shift at high RPM. Always get locked out and grind.

maybe air bound?

Read the post I just posted, There is air getting trapped up by the master. Fix this and all these issues will go away for you and Ron and I have a feeling all the others that have had this issue, I have already talked to Ron and he is going to do what I have found and get back with me, I Installed his exact set-up with all new parts just like his in our 370Z today. It works perfect with no issues, Just have to get the air out and adjusted correctly. There are plenty of these out in use working perfectly and some that do not, The ones that don't are either not adjusted right or have air in the system still.


This> http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivet...ml#post1547822

Let me know if that works Ron, about to do my install w/ new CSC etc.. sounds like Joe found the problem with bleeding the system when installing a new CSC. Good stuff!! Johnny was telling me they spent forever bleeding your car. That explains it.

Status update. All the fvcking air is out!!! Drove 30+miles. Pedal remained the same. My god does this thing shift fast.

Here's what I did:

-Drain the system to the last drop.
-Gravity bleed until you go through about 5-7 reservoirs (don't let it go below "min"!)
-Close the bleed valve from the CSC, pump pedal about 30times. Hold pedal in. Open valve. Repeat this about 10 times.
-Adjut pin on the pedal to where it is about flush with the clevis or about 1 thread inside.
-With pedal all the way out and no pressure whatsoever on it, crack the slave valve open and close it quickly. Do the same with the master.
-Pump a couple of times.
-Go drive and enjoy the clutch!


Bad news... Issue number 2 remains. I am still having the problem getting into gear after putting the car in neutral and releasing the clutch. When I force 1st the car moves a couple of inches forward, like the clutch is not disengaging completely. Once I get a gear in and get the car moving there is no problem shifting.

Do it Monday and I'll go help you... If Gabe doesn't mind being watched that is..

Gabes my bitch. don't worry about it. I'm planning on Tuesday, I have to go to S.A., sis having the baby. Yes, I'd like you there so we can discuss what might be the issue with yours. Plus we need your clutch bleeding expertise aparently.

I can do tuesday, but be there!! Lol

Ron, Where does the clutch start to grab when letting up from the floor?

A little after the middle, so toward the top. So there is some space at the bottom before it starts to grab. Does that make sense? Lol

I know your setup is pretty gnarly, any way this is a break in issue?

It does but what isn't making sense to me if nothing happens in the bottom area it's released all the way and should not be causing issues.

If you just sit there for a sec after depressing the clutch does it still happen?

Mine was bled twice, so pedal pressure is good. Like Ron, we both have have the sticky gear issue still. My clutch now engages near up top now as well (nice without the extra play). Although it gets notchy at times, it's much better than before. Plus, gearbox fluid flush makes seems to have improved shifting effort as well (smoother).

Yes it still happens. I start the car, let it sit. Depress clutch all the way to the floor, wait a few seconds and go for 1st. Won't go in and have to force it. Once it is, with the clutch still pressed I can shift through all gears with no issue. Drive until I have to stop and the same thing happens.

Yup... or get in 1st, release, depress, and get in 1st again. It gets stuck in 1st and R. Get in 3rd or 4th, then back to 1st and you're fine. Unfortunately it's second nature habit to me now.

Have you done some 1-2 shifts at high RPM? If you can do it many times successfully, then I'm jealous haha. Weather hasn't been so great, so I've not been able to drive the car as hard. Believe it or not, boost controller was installed last week, and I still haven't played with it yet.

I know yours has a possibility of a disk with too much marcel which I have agreed with you to take care of before, but Rons should have no issues at all with release.
I spent all day verifying this by installing the exact set-up he has. I had the same basic set-up as yours before this one and it worked perfectly also.
Not sure what is going on and I wish I could be at both your places to figure it out.

Clutch installs are pretty strait forward, sounds like maybe CSC issue? But then you can go into all the other gears after 1st w/o issue. This is why I didn't get twin disc setup, too race car for me, and now I have a slipping clutch :/ lol! I know it's a quality product and we will get to the bottom of it.

I have no problem getting stuck on a gear and I can shift fast from one to another even at high rpm (sorry digi). The issue is getting that initial gear to get in, regardles if it's 1,2,3,4,5,6 or R. Once I get any of those in it's ok.. Until I have to stop the car and start again. I'm sure you all get what I mean lol. I'm gonna stop repeating myself now. :icon17:

There are only a few things that can cause it then, I know this set-up has perfect release, I have now proved it to myself twice on my own car and have done about 4 other 370's that have had no issues either, Not the exact same clutch, Still south bends though.

Did you clean the splines and make sure the disk slid easily across them before install?

Other possibilities are that the disk is bent from installation, this can happen from letting the trans hang on the disk while stabbing the trans.

The splines are dirty and not allowing the disk to slide freely or burred up causing the disk to stick on the input shaft

The pilot bushing is damaged from install and spinning the input shaft.

The disk is scored and has a high spot from slipping it too much before break in was completed, If it is this it may get better after wearing some material off.

That is all I can think of for now, I will think more on it while I'm not sleeping tonight :(

Put some more miles on it and bring it by the shop Tuesday maybe Wednesday, txt/call me Monday, I'll let Johnny know whats up. I want to drive it, you can drive mine Oo!

We will actually be there Saturday having a party(margarita machine & keg) for their kids 1st bday if you want to stop by and let us check it out.

I'm working sat. I can do Monday or Tuesday. Unless it's sat at like 8pm lol



Joe I emailed u the answers to those scenarios too.

-Not sure if they cleaned the splines, gotta ask them
-Tranny was on a tranny stand/jack when being reinstalled
-New nismo needle pilot bushing installed
-I have not pushed the car over 5k maybe 6k once and already after 220miles, this was actually tonight after getting the air out of the system. Always waited for revs to come down before shifting. Issue has been happening since day 1 of the new clutch. I just figured once I got the air out this would go away too.

Thanks, Joe. That's what I was wondering about Ron's situation. I'll live with mine for now until I get around to ordering a new clutch disk from you. Heck, I might wait for aftermarket master cylinder when it becomes available.

It's a daily driver, so it's not much of a big issue right now. It's much better now after the recent adjustment. Other than getting used to the higher engagement point, shifts are much lighter now. Once I get everything else (other priorities) squared away I can get back to this hobby.

What should I do? Take it back to nissan or any mechanic should be able to do this? Im only having little bit of a trouble going into 1st and have very high engagement? Does this mean I have air in the master too? Im thinking I should just wait and shop around for a new master.

You either still have air in it somewhere and they probably have you adjustment too far out to try and make up for it causing the high pedal release.

My release point is in the same spot as it was when it was stock.

Ron, did you do as I had recommended and back the adjustment off before breaking the line loose at the master and letting it sit? Did you see air or fluid come out up there?

Must also have resv cap off while doing this. If the air is trapped you will not get full slave travel even if the pedal feels good. Air compresses, fluid doesn't

My experience is close to what Joe has said. Once the air is finally removed from the system, the stroke adjustment must be reset.

It also takes awhile before the clutch breaks in and 1'st gear creep with the clutch disengaged at a stop, goes away.

My southbend clutch system operated flawlessly now that it is properly adjusted and broke in. I haven't replaced the CSC yet, as the stock one is still working well with the CSC cap installed. But we both know it's just a matter of time before it fails.

When you say back the adjustment off, do you mean adjusting the rod to where it is flush or 1 thread inside the clevis? If so, then yes. When I cracked it open I saw nothing first and then I got some fluid drops. Resv cap was off like you suggested.


I sure hope that is the issue and that it goes away with a little more mileage.

Joe, as requested here are some videos that I took

Do you hear the noise at .16 in the 2nd video when you try to put it in gear? That is almost for sure a damaged pilot bushing, I absolutely hate the nismo pilot bushing or any needle pilot.
They are very easy to damage during install.

The video has helped tremendously.

Once you get a gear you then have no issues going into gear, What this means is it is not the clutch dragging causing it. If the clutch was dragging it would do it over and over not just once.

You are getting the disk/splines and gears lined up when it finally goes in.

This is what is going on,
The pilot is damaged, My #1 guess. Please change this to a OE bronze type pilot when you pull it to do the turbo kit.

The input shaft spines were not clean and are causing the disk to bind on the input shaft, Once you get it in gear by forcing it slightly the disk moves and releases from the splines allowing it to be shifted easily after that.

If the clutch was not releasing fully it would never allow you to flip through the gears at idle even after you get it in the first gear.

Thanks Joe! It makes sense.. Can it wait till the install or should I avoid driving it like this? I don't care about transmission damage since it is gonna be replaced under warranty due to a 1st-2nd synchro acting up. I don't wanna damage the TZR disc though.

I know Johnny mentioned your clutch is made up of some different material and will make a lot of chatter and probably take 1k miles to break in. Typical twin disc issues. How many miles have you put on it. Go drive in stop and go traffic @ 5:00 pm today lol!

I retract my last statement, didn't see the recent post.

It's a single disc kevlar. I do remember Gabe playing with the needle pilot bushing trying to get it in.. he actually never took the stock one out until I told them it had to be replaced every time you change a clutch.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...3/DSC00441.jpg

:p

I don't think it will hurt the clutch or anything else besides the input shaft were the pilot bearing is riding on it and gouging it up if that is the issue.

I would like some pictures of the disk when it is pulled and before you put it back together, Just to make sure it is not damaged from the previous dragging when the air was in the system.

When you say chatter, do you mean noise? Noise comes from the single mass flywheels, This only happens at below 2500 rpm under load and slightly off throttle when free revving the engine.

This clutch although rigid drives perfectly smooth if installed correctly and IMO drives way better than the stock clutch and DM flywheel.

I'm asking Johnny about it now, I'll call Gabe too and see what he has to say about it. Nismos and Sport share this pilot bushing?

No stock nissan car that I know of come with a Nismo needle pilot. I have had many issues before with the needle pilots and always advise against them. No matter how careful you are with them they are just way to easy to damage during install.