Get out there and do it if it can be done.

Yes I realize that and trust me, I was quite close to getting a WRX, but it doesn't come with 265's. We're getting away from a stock for stock car again.

I don't have all of the stats for either car. The weight distribution for the Z says 53/47 which seems pretty good... I don't know how good or bad that is... I never cared much. The Z (and i'm talking about the standard or sport model Z) that is labelled a CS car is still stock for stock ahead of the WRX according to the SCCA ratings... but since you yourself have said that your WRX has been ahead of Z's by "1-2 seconds" it would appear that their way of classing cars is flawed and that the WRX should be in at least CS correct?

Now if we want to start talking modding... the WRX is likely going to have an advantage because of the turbo and tuning and such (now getting back on topic) it can get more power out of a tune. The WRX guys themselves have told me that once that car gets to 350-400 whp that the tranny will have to be upgraded or replaced to handle that power... and while some say it's different, other suby guys have told me that's not the case and that the drivetrain is still weak and again... I haven't done the research, but this is just what was told to me and this was on the Subaru forums. Either way, there are more parts for the WRX than the Z... pretty obvious why.

I can only go by my own personal experience... I have seen Evo's on track overtake GT-R's and been close to top of the line Vette's... but this is also pretty highly modded. Then you also have the video of the lamborghini murcielago that was pretty easily overtaken by a FQ-400 Evo... and while those are modded, that's not 400 whp as far as I know that's bhp... yet the Lamborghini has much better power and common sense would tell most people that it doesn't make sense for a 4 door sedan to be able to overtake one of those cars with the power output and such.

AWD is my answer. IMHO if you put the WRX in a RWD platform it wouldn't be near what it is now. It also has the symmetrical system and this (take from Subaru's website) "Side-to-side balance, along with a compact layout and lower centre of gravity help give the vehicle greater stability. What's more, the system instantly reapportions the engine's torque between the front and rear wheels as conditions demand, providing powerful traction for more capable performance on any road."

That's not exactly comparing apples to apples here IMO. You still have a computer controlled car in a stock vs stock situation. Many of us have bought the 370z because it's a drivers car... the driver is responsible for the work and for the stability of the car.

Ugh. Stock class isn't stock. That's the whole point. Z's with stock tires compete with wrx's with stock tires (in numbers, not class). The class is based on how the car does with the mild stock class mods.

Beyond that, it makes more sense to pay attention to a change in class than absolute class...

Its not that easy for me to pack up and jump onto a track. There all about 100+ miles away. But I will one day and I will probably suck at it and get killed by a Miata because I have no track experience. What are you trying to prove by saying "go out there and do it" The Nismo was over 4 seconds faster around VIR then the WRX, say what you want about Mag test but that is a fact. It was also faster then the current STI.

There's a weekly autocross probably within 10 miles of you.


VIR is not a track I would use to evaluate performance. At all.

It's a fun track, but not at all indicative of how a car will do on most tracks--and it heavily favors the nismo. Stock for stock, i would pick the nismo for VIR. I'd go with the Sti for pretty much everything else that comes to mind

Boy you have an answear for everything. So an AutoX in a crappy tore up parking lot would be a good way to evaluate cars? Just wondering? Cause thats the kind of AutoX events I have near me. VIR is a track correct? Cars go around it and race the clock correct? The Z was faster then the WRX and the STI correct? Why does VIR favor the Nismo?

I'm shure he'll come up with something. I think all his discussions always become heated because he's old. :icon17::p

go easy on the old guys... i'm gonna be 33 in 8 days lol

I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that the WRX (a car that I like a lot) stock for stock is not in fact in the same league as the 370... numbers show this. You can put down some magazine numbers and thats fine, but when you have one source and then another and then another it gets pretty hard to deny IMO anyway.

I also stand by the fact that the WRX still has much computer help from the SAWD system and even though based on stock the Z is still faster IMO, the fact remains that the WRX SHOULD be faster anyway... it's lighter and so the power can be very consistant during corning ... no wheelspin, the torque is always being distributed to optimize speed and therefore lap times.

Either way, fun debate, we should just start a thread on this.

Red_Zed is in his 20's, he is not old.

ouch... so since i'm in my 30's I am !!!! :confused:

LOL, y? He called you old?

no... you said that he wasn't old... he's in his 20's lol

Oh, you did the little guy with question marks on top so I thought you where asking a question LOL.

/\ if it makes you feel better, I'm older than you. :icon23:

Ummm the Z needs the V12 from the Lamborghini Aventador ==> winning! :tup:

You know, I keep thinking each year that it's going to bother me ... especially since I turned 30... it has yet to do so though.

First off, there's a little bit of confusion going around about a lot of things, so I'm going to try to clear that up.

For the purpose of track discussion, stock-vs-stock is kind of pointless. First off, the Z can't run stock, so it is really not in it's favor to do that. Second, no one runs a completely stock car. Things like brakes, tires, and a reflash are a pretty safe bet, and I think allowing that and a oil cooler makes sense. So let's assume all the cars are running a lightweight set of rims that fit comfortably on the car in question-- something like the beefed up setup most of you are running on your Z's. Add track pads, etc, and give the cars a reflash. You're talking a very different game in this case from cars that are artificially limited by various things from the factory (less extreme version of the oil issues on the Z). You can uncork 30+AWHP with a $300 AP on a Subie, and the tire difference is huge too. The fact that the RE050a's grip better than SP's doesn't make the Z a better car. Part of the reason the Nismo tests so much better (besides just wider tires, etc) is the superior Advan's it comes with.

For the stock classing on autocross, you do need to understand there are a lot of other factors that come into play, like rules that benefit certain cars. Also, it's less important what a car runs in, but it is big deal when it gets moved. It means people are running the car, and failing-- and it usually means skilled people are giving it a go.
With the Z, the Nismo is basically allowed to run much fatter tires than anyone else, and in AutoX, that is huge. So Stock classing can give some misleading results-- from things like Nismos running 305s and WRXs running 245 series tires. That alone can be 5-6 seconds on most courses, and it's not really representative of the car's performance.

In regards to VIR, certain tracks benefit certain cars.
A car with good aero and a decent trap speed is usually going to dominate at VIR. At Here, the Nismo having an oil cooler is also going to be a huge benefit, since most cars are cooking it at the end of that straight--kind of an unfair benefit. Consider it offset by the fact that C&D maybe didn't get in a killer lap (though they claim they did).
It has always frustrated me that C&D uses VIR for their Lightning Lap...I wish they would pick a more balanced track. If they chose, say, Summit, the Subaru would probably be tearing things up--which is also not representative of performance. So quoting those numbers is pretty misleading. Allowing $500 to be spent on cars, (oil cooler for the Z, tune for mustang), a V6 mustang will put several seconds on the Z, and Jared will tell you that's not possible...

Like I said and to finally get back on topic... i'm happy with the car the way it is... sure there are a few things i'd change... adding more torque would be a plus for one. For two, a TT option would have been cool as I said earlier in the thread, but it would be SOOOOOOO expensive and IMO people would be doing all kinds of damage to these cars.

The car isn't slow, it's the fastest stock Z in the history of the car and we all know this.

I think that ultimately just more tuning options and more aftermarket options would make those who aren't completely happy with the car a lot more happy. Then again like I said before, if 400 whp was as much as the car would make NA, people would complain they wanted 425 and then 450 and then 500... where does it stop? Then people make jokes about modding being addictive... it actually is if you ask me.

The problem is again... that you can pick a more "balanced" track basically meaning one that has less top end since the Subaru will get outrun badly by a Z in that area is that THAT track is now more favorable to the Suby because of more turns, and many of those turns that again a car with S-AWC or SAWD will benefit greatly ... like the Z's tires.... so while the Z can get wheelspin, the little Suby can just be getting through the turns easily because a computer is doing all of the work and the work it's not doing, the AWD system is.

There is really no fairness in trying to contest a RWD Z to an AWD turbocharged car. Yes, you can get 30 whp JUST from a tune on a Subaru.. I don't know on a stock 370 what you would get, but it aint that.

Anyway, there are benefits to each car... IMO the wider tires and them being Advans is equal to the WRX being a computer controlled AWD car. That's my opinion at least.

And a V6 Mustang? Come on man.

I said that. Summit point is an example of a track better for the subie. But doing something like Laguna Seca would be great-- it's an epic track, and I care about LS lap times.

Again, they are different cars, but they do "compete" in that people cross shop them. People that plan on tracking their cars almost universally pick something else.

The V6 beats the Z on most US tracks, just so you know. It's actually faster than the GT on tight tracks, and is usually just a few seconds behind on other tracks. With the limiter removed (top speed is 117 for insurance reasons), it puts .5-1.5 seconds on the Z around VIR.

The WRX has gotten soft and fat. It is no where near the cheap killer handling car it use to be. And its slower then Z. I have given you fact after fact about how the Z does compete with the WRX/STI. Go ahead tune your Rex, a Z is still gonna walk you. And if a V6 Mustang with a tune (because it has a limited speed of like 117 or some crap) is going to put several seconds on a Z then its gonna do the same to a WRX/STI. I dont understand how you go off saying the Z does not compete with the WRX/STI. The Z is faster, weighs around the same, has more HP, brakes better, and pulls better skidpad numbers. Guess the Cayman S cant compete with a $26,000 WRX let alone an STI huh?? But no I'm sorry that is all info I learned from reading so that means its all made up correct?

I say it doesn't compete because since it has come out, it has trailed the B stock class. It now trails the C stock class. It's lays slower times than the WRX on most tracks.

There's no doubt that the Subie's have gotten fat. My 04 would literally destroy my 11 around most course. That doesn't change the fact that I can put down some brutal times in the WRX. I borrowed an 11 from a guy down here, and was A stock competitive....In the Z, I'm middle of B stock.

Magazine test numbers mean very little. Get some track time in, then come back once you have enough knowledge to speak on this subject.

Where are you getting all this infor?? The V6 Stang is faster on most US tracks then the Z?? I'm just curious? How do you know the V6 Stang puts .5-1.5 seconds on the Z at VIR?? CarAndDriver never tested one that was modded with a tune.

I believe the guy that actually has both a Z and a WRX :ugh2:

curiously, car and driver isn't actually the only source for number. In fact, they are one of the worst.

That's crazy talk.

Your just a regular Mario Andretti huh? A stock competitve in a Rex?

Who asked you? You're obviously wrong. People with red Z's are always wrong. :stirthepot:

worst part is, I'm a mediocre driver at best.

All this arguing makes me want to go AutoX. Brb gonna go check the dates for it.

Nothing compared to me. I'm so much better :driving:

What the hell I'll throw it in there now before it's too late

IBTL

I believe the guy who doesn't know what autocross classes are, and has never owned a car faster than a Z.

People that install human faces on their bumpers are simply unqualified to judge who is competent.

ZOMG watch out for that truck!:eek:

Believe what you want. But then you also have to say your gonna get walked by a V6 Stang, and your Z cant even hold its own against a $26,000 Wagon

They make a wrx wagon here????

Walk refers to straight line. The Z will win. No doubt.

Sorry its a 5 DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR. You knew what I was talking about stop being a d***. Sorry, you say put seconds on I say walk.

which pretty clearly shows what we each have experience with.

I know dude your so cooooooooooool, we all wish we could be you. An average race car driver that drives car faster then they should really be able to go. You have had sooooooo many cool cars ooooo ahhhhhh.. I'm done. All your comments are negative every forum has a cool guy like you. Maybe I'll see ya at ZDayZ 2012 with your M3 that kills Enzo's around every track in the world. Nice talking to ya.