Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger
 

Can you get the 370 up to 400 hp or as close as possible. Without being turboed or super-charged. Please list out the parts or modifications if possible.

Im just guessing here since Im a bit new to the VQ world (but quite knowledgeable in the LSX SBC world)...but you'd probably need...more than likely, the best of the best bolt-ons, and some internals for this. Heads, headers-back, a DECENT intake, custom-ground cams and upgraded valvetrain to match, maybe swap your bottom end for something a bit higher in compression. Cant forget your fuel system (pump/injectors), and a tune to go with it.

The price would be quite high, more than likely.

On the other hand, going boosted the safe (and "correct", to many) way would be to swap to a nice forged bottom end, upgrade your fuel system, and get a nice intercooled turbo/supercharger kit. That'd probably last a long time, assuming its all installed correctly. Oh yeah, and beef up that tranny and potentially your rear end if you plan on launching it ever...

This kind of work is common place in the SBC world, and people can, now-a-days, fairly easily put down close to 500 to the wheels in their N/A F-bodies and C5 Vettes for minimal cost. But with these VQ motors, finding aftermarket manufacturers for a lot of the parts would probably be quite difficult, and/or prone to raping your wallet of funds lol.

Why do you want to go N/A when you can spend half of the money and get more power with boosting? I bet you have a lot of mob money... :tup:

So I did a little searching around youtube, found this video. Long and short, he has longtubes w/ no emissions, their own custom exhaust/intake setup, Nismo street cam's, and everything else is still stock. Now I know its the 3.5L, but none the less - they still only squeeked out 313WHP.

YouTube - SG Motorsport Longtube Racecar Development

I question "half the money", unless you're piecing together, and installing the kit yourself. Tack on another $400+ for a chassis dyno tune.

All good feedback
 

Thanks, BTW would you estimate the cost to be of your suggestions...Just round about

Well, I guess a good way to guestimate would be to take what it costs to do it on my Camaro and double it just about haha.

Longtubes + full exhaust - $1800-2000
Heads - god I dont even want to guess. $2000-3000 I'd say
Cams - $1000-1200 maybe?
Intake - $400-500
Valve springs - Looks like $250ish
Some nice lightweight valves would be on my mod list too, but I cant seem to find a price for them. Probably quite a bit.
Bottom Ends can vary in price - Im going to guess $1500 here or so. Factor in needing to send it out to be balanced, and installed by a professional. Another $500 or so.
Fuel System - $500 for injectors it seems, $155 for a walbro pump, plus another $400ish for a tune.



So using my medium prices, around $9000 or so to make high 300's to the wheels. Some people would shy you away from this and simply say go boosted. I say, you do all this, and all of these would support a boosted setup. Slap the turbo kit on and nothing else, retune, and shoot for the moon :). Forged bottom end + boosted setup w/ a fuel system to support it? Delicious...

Forged Crank, Forged piston heads, higher compression (maybe in the 12s), BIG cams and matching heads, good intake, full exhaust with test pipes. Should be good for 400. It's harder to get lower displacement motors to higher HP without FI or Nitrous.

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.

http://www.stillen.com/media_files/S...ust_504355.jpg

They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

^^^ Interesting. I don't totally agree with your "turbo shenanigans" description, but I do know what you mean. I DO think it'd cost about the same to make the car 400whp N/A as it would to make it 500whp through FI. BUT, that's because 400 is a HIGH number for a small displacement motor.

Also, I just thought about it, why not bore and stroke? Make the car either a 3.8 or a 3.9 (or if you're crazy, a 4.0) and THEN go for more power. Obviously the 3.8 parts are already around.

I know what you mean about having the power when you want it, but a good turbo setup doesn't have to take forever to spool. In fact, with a lightweight flywheel the turbos spool a bit quicker, and to make the 400-500whp mark, you don't need big turbos, so they'd spool even faster.

Just a thought.

Your on track for sure...
 

I like your thought process...

It of course doesn't have to be so bad of an experience, I know. I just see people thinking you can slap turbo kits and keep driving the car like nothing happened. I mean it is possible and it does happen with well designed kits, but all inclusive kits are going to run you upwards of $10,000 all said and done. Of course the potential of a turbo car is MUCH greater, there is no denying that.

I wouldn't mind a 4.0L.

You can't have your cake and eat it too though. 500whp is almost twice the stock whp. You can't run very small turbos to get that kind of power unless the compression is really high, which you wouldn't do because you would end up blowing up. So you would have to get lower compression pistons at which point the setup wouldn't make as much power with the smaller turbos and you would have to get bigger ones to do the trick. I don't know where the limits of the stock block are as far as boost is concerned. That is why we have those guys who are in a hurry to be the first to have turboed Z's to do all the experiments before we do :). I would assume a pair of GT28's or 30's would do the trick for 500WHP. I would expect full boost with those on the 3.7L engine with lower compression internals @ 3700RPM. 18-21PSI. With stock compression, 500whp...12PSI @3300rpm with twin 20G's.

I'm still with Q_USAF though, I like the idea of a free revving N/A responsive engine..hope it makes power :)

Intake
Headers
Exhaust
Cams
Heads
Intake Mani
Flywheel
Tune

Check these estimates out...
 

These are only estimates based on a average from the various manufacturers in terms of horse-power. These bolt-on's are available now or coming soon.

1. Intake - 8 - 12
2. Exhaust - 10 - 16
3. Headers - 8 - 10
4. Race pipes - 5 -7
5. Pulley 9 - 15
6. Fly wheel & Clutch - 8 - 10
7. Cams ???
8. ECU Flash - ???

Any thoughts??

^^^ MORE actually. Keep in mind, every mod makes the other work better. CIA may help to make 8-12, but add a light weight fly wheel and flash and that CIA is pushing 15-18 on it's own.

However, 12PSI on GT28's is going to spool pretty quick. A friend of mine has dual GTK350's on his 300zx and they spool pretty fast with his light weight flywheel and 3" exhaust. His setup is designed for 600whp, but he doesn't push it that high. Usually keeping it around 450-500.

I'd love to have 500HP N/A. But I don't see it happening without a seriously silly cam set with this 3.7L.

There's only one cam in the VQ's head and that's the exhaust cam. The traditional intake cam is no longer available. The ecu controls the duration of the intake cam. CRAZY!!

Are you saying that the valves are controlled by a servo set?

The intake valve opening and closing events are actuated by Nissans VVEL system. This complicated system uses a rotating eccentric activating a rocker arm with a moving fulcrum which can quickly change the motion ratio of the eccentric to the rocker. This gives the ability to steplessly change the duration and lift of the intake valves on the fly. The command authority of this mechanism over valve moment is great enough so that controlling valve opening is the primary means of controlling the throttling of the VQ37VHR, instead of the throttle itself. 370.com

Geeeeez. OK. So a silly tune? Can we hack this thing? (Well, I'm sure we CAN hack it. I guess the question should be HAS someone hacked it yet?)

Somehow, somewhere, somebody(tuner's) is going to crack the VVEL. I'm guessing they can tune the ecu to increase the duration through the use of VVEL and replace the stock exhaust cams with more aggressive aftermarket cams.

The head is where it's at. That is where N/A's can make the most power.

A lightened flywheel will not add hp. It might release a little rotational mass which is going to be the equivalent to adding hp, but the change itself doesn't add HP.

I just put flywheel in my answer for responsiveness sake, not for power.

BoBoTee - great info.

it adds RWhp not engin HP

and at the end of the day that is what matters.

im pretty sure we will be able to get over 400hp NA in time. check out the work cosworth did for the vq35 for the castrol syntec top shop challenge. i think they pushed something near 430hp NA...which is pretty amazing. granted it will be expensive, its def. do-able. all we gotta do is hit up eric hsu at cosworth and make it happen

Cost wise it's not worth it, especially just to get a mere 430hp on 100 oct gas. A turbo set up would cost less, make more power and still use 91-93octane depending on boost levels. I prefer boosted cars to N/A's, more fun to drive I guess.

Not enough that it'd matter. As many found out in the LSX world, running a high HP setup with a lightened flywheel only ended up making the damn flywheel a weak point in the system heh.

And parts gaining power from each other isnt nearly as exponential as some think heh.

The funny part is, in the end, 400 WHP would make this car faster than 99% of the cars on the road, and people seem to think they ALWAYS need more. More more more.

This car was built for the track, and any more than that, may seriously affect vehicle dynamics.

Sure, some 800 WHP boosted ground pounder may be cool, but does anyone honestly think they'll put that power to the ground EFFECTIVELY?

true. especially parts adding or muliplying the HP numbers. The G37S has dynos to prove that is not true.

Sure 400whp might be enough for some, but I don't think that it would make it faster then 99% of the cars on the road. In my area there are a bunch of Evo's,STi's,Supras,Rx7s,Cobras, and Vettes running 400whp,500whp,600whp and up. I had a 400whp Evo8 myself before I wrecked it. I think a 450whp 370z would be good for street and track. It all depends on the setup.

Seriously? You dont think the vast majority of cars on the road are stock and/or completely riced out w/ no mods? Not to mention all the grocery getters, vans, daily drivers and whatnot out there.

Being the fastest from stoplight to stoplight means **** anymore, really, except the high possibility of losing your license and hurting someone. Straight line racing is boring, too. Street racing is and has lost so much allure now that states are cracking down on it. Go do some legal Auto-X or road racing.

I dont disagree, 400ish HP on the 370 would probably be pretty optimal for a VERY fast track car. Anywhere north of that though, I think you're now just going into the realm of wanting to be a stupid powerful street car with no purpose other than to brag. Who cares about the ridiculously powerful local cars are, do they even track them? Or do they just street race? How often do you go to these car shows and see these blown classic muscle cars that never see anything other than a garage when they aren't at the show?

Its just not worth it for me, career and insurance wise, to get caught racing on the street. I'll stick to legal methods now, thanks.

Who said anything about street light to street light racing?

Ah geez... I nap for an hour and see a billion things to respond to in one thread... LOL

OK, MightyBoo, I live in Los Angeles, and the muscle cars I see out here are not just garaged. There's a LOT of them out here that are being driven like they were meant to be. Trust me on that. I see races all the time. In Compton, some of the best races go down. 10, 9, and sometimes 8 second cars race down there... The street races there NEVER lose their allure... Especially when both cars are doing wheelies off the line... Yeah, people can get hurt and no cops almost never show up.

Lightweight flywheels don't add HP at all, they reduce the amount of potential HP lost through the drivetrain. However, since we're talking about N/A that won't make it to 500HP crank, a lightweight fly wheel is NOT going to be a weak point in the system. LSx motors make 500HP VERY easily so yes, in an LSx application, there's no need to use a lightweight flywheel. Also, keep in mind that an LSx has plenty more torque (345Lbs+) and therefore can get the drivetrain spinning a lot easier. The VQ can use all the help it can get to speed up the revs.

Multiplier does depend on the motor. LSx motors LOVED mods. Little mods made big differences and every mod did help the other quite a bit. The VQ, not so much. I think that other mods to the VQ won't help each other enough until you FI the motor anyway.

I think we need to get away from the FI vs NA discusion a bit and focus more on the thread topic. I could go on all day about why I won't FI another NA car. Upgrading FI on an OEM FI car is one thing but on a stock NA it's a whole different animal.

I would like to see 350RWHP (that's over 400 at the crank) naturally aspirated out a 370. The cosworth build did involve a stroker kit to 3.7 I believe. The stock head has great potential. So here is what I think will do it:

-CAI
-Header Back Exhaust (although when looking a the stock headers I think they are going to be tough to beat)
-Injectors
-Ingnition (HKS DLI)
-Underdrive Pulleys ( I hate using these but NA it should be ok)
-Aggresive tune taking full advantage of VVEL

On this car 350RWHP will be incredible to drive. Match that with the longevity you are sure to have without boost and you have a streetable, reliable, monster.

Amen. I literally couldn't have said that better or agree with it more.

Actually, with the experience I've had building cars for 14 years, it is just as easy as snapping on a turbo as long as you have all of the supporting modifications. I don't really have the time to go into detail about all of the costs associated with going N/A, but it is not cheap. If done right, you can piece together, fab, and install a turbo system for cheaper than a full N/A setup. Tuning knowledge is extremely important though, so turbocharging a factory N/A car is not for rookies. :tup: Then again, as long as there is a reputable tuning shop in your area, you should be golden.

The way I see it is if you're going to break your warranty, you might as well do it for more power.

Oh and as far as longevity goes, low boost is your best friend. At 5-6 psi, your car will last longer than you will own it.

Anyway, I'm done. It's all in what you want to do and there is no right or wrong. Just opinions. I just hate how some of you folks blast people about things and try to make them feel like a fool. Hell, it is almost as bad as my350z at times.

Have you ever thought that maybe those people enjoy building motors just for fun? Not everybody that has a powerful car is a meat head that pounds the public pavement for the hell of it. Remember, there are idiots everywhere you go in ALL horsepower classes and ALL kinds of vehicles. Quit your whining and go back to your Enfamil formula.

Ninjaman...I too have some substantial experience building, and destroying cars over the last 8 years. And one factor that remains constant is "boost fever". When it is so easy to increase power it's almost impossible to resist the urge to do so. This, ultimately, is what results in blown motors. More so than generic mechanical failure at least. Have you met a single motor-head that could resist cranking it up, if even only one time? I haven't, to include myself.

You will not convince me that ANY turbo setup will last longer or be as maintenance free on a 370 than the simple mods I listed above. I don't care how well the work is done, or how well the motor is tuned, all things being equal the NA setup lasts longer. Sure I would love to have a 370ZTT, but I would only consider this if I had something else to drive when it does break.

Oh geeze, someone's upset over a lot of nothing. For the record Im 25. And secondly, of course there's idiots everywhere - where did I say specifically that 370Z owners were the plague?

You're reading into what I was saying far too much - the short point is that, from my side of the fence, I plan on modding with the purpose to race the car at a track. If you want to mod it to have some ridiculous amount of horsepower, have at it I guess. But I see that on par with getting chrome 24's on a Hummer - a vehicle that'll never do what its designed to do.

Sounds like you did a little street racing with your SRT-4 and I hit a nerve, to be perfectly honest. I never said I was innocent, myself. But after a couple eye-opening incidents, never again.

:drama: Drama! :drama:

For those who have been around the VQ community, my guess will be no. And if it ever was possible, get ready to spend over 10k in a full NA engine build. Not worth it...

Its what makes the world go 'round!

To be quite honest, I think people just take things to harshly on a message board sometimes. Im very opinionated and not particularly shy about sharing it. Others who don't like my opinion, but are just as opinionated themselves, will naturally clash.