My initial performance goal is 370hp at the flywheel, which should equate to about 315whp. I know this is easily possible with JUST high-flow cats, cat-back exhaust, and Cobb AccessPort Stage 2. The AP Stage 2 out for the G37 with this setup claims about 11% gain (about 38hp), so I expect the Z will have similar #s.

Adding an intake to this setup with a Stage 2+ tune would more than likely result in another 10-15hp gain, which brings flywheel horsepower close to 400 at the flywheel, but not quite. I think getting 400 even at the flywheel will be tough to do, but maybe with a plenum spacer, pullies, and some other stuff it will be possible. Now, 400whp, that is a whole other story. I honestly don't know if it's possible at all naturally aspirated without doing some major work.

I REALLY doubt that those mods gives you 40HP more at the crank...

Read the quote.

(Ignore the nitrous part) That's with basic boltons. I don't know what full boltons are to you but I/H/E and a tuned AP isn't much. ~350whp (or was it 340???). Anywho, they didn't push it on the tune so there's some more left. Also, there's a few more boltons they can add to that to increase the power.

What other boltons can be added to increase power? Intake manifold? Pulleys? What else? Ignition? Switching to E85?

I'm pretty sure no one even dared to think that I/H/E with a tuned AP would net anywhere near 90 whp above stock either. Never know until it's tested and tried...I'd like to see the outcome.

But 400 is a bit far fetched now that I think about it, lol.

Yeah. I think with I/H/E you'll see about 350 crank max until tuning becomes a science for this motor. VVEL is impressive, at the least, but imagining that you can tune out the equivalent to a mild cam, you can hit 400 crank and maybe even with a big cam-type tune, 400whp.

350 Crank!? That's obsurd...that would be a gain of 18 HP at the crank...intake alone is showing 18 at the wheels.

^ Do u really think an intake setup is gonna add 18 at the wheels? Lets wait for mass production and independent results before we start eating Stillens #'s. I dont doubt that their intake system performs, im sure it performs well, but im just a bit pesimistic on those claims.

Anyways i also am a member on my350 and guys with VQDE's and Revups all manage somewhere around 250-270whp on average with full bolt ons and their respective tunes. I have seen guys with 270-290 range with cams and head work and the only 300whp + NA ive seen is Adam's from Z1 but he has a fully built 3.5. Now the HR has been showing that it responds better to bolt ons because guys with 07-08 Z's are getting 300whp with a I/E setup. There is a guy with an auto 07 making 320whp with full bolt ons and TS reflash. Now the 3.7 also seems to respond well to bolt ons and im gonna go ahead and guestimate around 300-315whp with I/H/E setups and 320-330 with I/H/E/TP/pullies/tune setups. Now to go higher than that we are gonna need cams but someone needs to crack the VVEL on the intake side first. This is all speculation tho. We are just gonna have to wait and see until more parts come out and more people mod their cars. But i cant wait for that and cant wait to see what GTM, Technosqare, Top Secret, Amuse, and all the other compaines come up with. I hope that the 3.7 gets the same aftermarket support like the VQ35 did but seeing how compaines are going bankrupt and the value of the american dollar dropping, parts are gonna be harder to come by and more expensive...

^Yes, I really do. Stillen has been around for a long time, they have no reason to fudge numbers or out right lie, they service a niche market. My point was merely that 350 Crank HP was an absurdly low estimate for the mods listed, it would be a gain of only 18HP for I/H/E. Also, I would be weary of drawing parallels from the 35DE/HR to the 37VHR they act completely different regarding mods, as you yourself said. I'll stick by what I said earlier in this thread.

-CAI
-Header Back Exhaust
-Injectors
-Ignition (like the HKS DLI)
-Pulleys
-Aggressive Tune

Should Yield over 400 Crank or Near 350RWHP

Are you insane? You think you're going to pick up about 70HP to the wheels on intake and a header back? Keep dreaming my man.

-First, injectors - why? What for? You cant tell me the stockers are being pushed that far to their limit.
-Ignition - why? The stock system should work just fine with those mods as they are minimal.
-Pulleys - going to be MINIMAL gain seen from these.

This isnt Need for Speed: Underground here, dude. I bet people will be lucky to get maybe 310-320 to the wheels with a TOP QUALITY I/H/E setup and tune. Either way, you'll just be disappointed if you want to play the numbers game on this car, and drag it to a Mustang Dyno...which is where you should rightfully go for a tune, anyway.

I haven't been on the g37 forums so I personally don't know but I don't trust that 90 horsepower gain. They were most likely taken on different days considering that headers were installed. That brings up a ton of variables between the 2 dyno runs.

Oh my god...I just posted this link a few pages up. They make ~350whp with I/H/E and a tuned reflash...

Final Dyno Numbers - MY350Z.COM Forums

Son...On a mustang dyno, Final Dyno Numbers - MY350Z.COM Forums

~350whp...On a mustang dyno with I/H/E and a reflash...VQ37VHR. From ~260whp bone stock to ~350whp with room to make a more aggressive map. That's ~90whp from 3 mods. Hard to believe but the proof is there.

How many times do I have to post that link? Is something wrong with the dyno? Are the numbers off?:confused:

You mean the one dyno with just the intake and the other one with I/H/E?

Not insulting your intelligence or anything but don't be ignorant about what you see. Be proactive and ask questions. Join that site and ask the user whatever you need to know.

On a side note, that tune was backed off as well. The tuner didn't want to push it so there's room for more.

Your posts are about as abrasive as they are wrong. Thanks dude, I can tell the difference between reality and video games. People like you are what is wrong with the forums, you come on here and play the Internet tough guy, but I guarantee you you won't talk like that to me, or anyone else, when we are standing right in front of you. I doubt if you have read any of the findings from G37s (which is a much better comparison than the 350Z) but they support my estimations fairly closely.

Apparently you can't tell the difference from one engine to another. If you knew anything about cars you would also know that hotter spark (ignition) will yield power even without any supporting mods. It results in a better more efficient burn. Pulleys may be a small gain, but that's how you make power slowly through an intelligent selection of upgrades. Injectors are for good measure, the other mods will result in a leaned AF ratio; better injectors provide a margin of safety rather than your assumption of it. Anyway, I said 400 Crank HP in both posts. 400 Crank with a 22% drive-train loss is right in the 330-340 RWHP neighborhood. So, it would appear to me you have no idea how Crank and RW horsepower interrelate. Maybe you should read more and post less.

What I mean is there are a lot of variables between the the two dynos on different days. Such as ambient air temperature and humidity whether or not the car had multiple dyno runs and was heatsoaked and the correction factor on the dyno may have been different between the two days. I still say 90 horsepower is a bogus number for those mods. Here are more realistic numbers MYG37.com Member Dyno Sheets - MyG37 a lot of them are stock dynos except for post 13 and 16. They don't show anywhere near 90 horsepower gains and they have similair although not the same mods. I think those numbers are pretty low but tuning is still somewhat of an unknown on this engine. I bet in a few months when more is known about tuning these engines they will be able to make more horsepower with those same mods. It seems like everybody who posted in his threads on my350z and myg37 believed it but I'm very skeptical of whether or not they're accurate. I hope he really did get 90 horsepower but it seems unbelievable.

Alright, so I really don't want to add to the drama, but MightyBobo is right. Those 3 things (injectors, ignition and pulleys) may get you 3hp. And that's just because the ignition can more effectively start the combustion process and the pulleys free up some mass that is stealing hp. The injectors are pointless. That is complete video game theory (Forza? NFS?) when you are talking about modern day cars...

90WHP out of an N/A 3.7L like the one on the 370Z is impossible on an exhaust, intake and tune. You are not going to point me to one stupid thread because I will point you to 6,000 other ones that say your numbers are bs.
If the motor is turbo, like an EVO or STI, then yeah you can do that, but not without compromising reliability.

Congrats, I'm not even going to go in that thread because its probably a bunch of idiots congratulating him for the super amazing gains. You know dynos can be tweaked to read whatever the hell you want them to read right? Do you believe everything you see on TV too? You own a snuggie dont you?

Find me some more threads that claim 90RWHP gains with a stage 2 car. Please. Really, I want to believe it!

Tune was backed off, wait...so this is a conservative tune that made 90WHP? Oh dear. :rofl2:

Listen guys, you are arguing over something that has no real basis. As much as I would love this to be true..it does not make sense. The parts that were chosen aren't even full-race no-compromise parts and the tune is "backed off." Clearly by reading your rationalization of the mods, I can tell you have the theory down JoeyD, but you need to be a little more skeptic about the results that people post up on the internet.

This is the same subject over and over and over again... I would be very very very happy with a 40RWHP(30RWHP on a mustang) gain on a stage 2 setup, with a very aggressive tune. That might even be fantasy too though...

But hey, in due time we will see which one of us is right, so there's no point on arguing about theory right now. I dynoed baseline at 256whp. If I get an exhaust, intake an a tune and I come back with 346WHP, then I will gladly take back everything I said. Until then, I'm going to get my feet back on the ground and hope for 290-300whp.

Lol, As they come I will. But there's no stage anything. It's a re-TUNED reflash. The maps from COBB aren't on there. But again, ask the guy and the tuner himself. If the proof is there and you question it, ask questions. Don't be so quick to be so skeptical. Just ask. All of those dynos in that other thread are all pre-mapped and untuned. All of them. But if more pop up then so be it. If not, oh well. But it's intake HEADERS and exhaust and a TUNED reflash. So get it and tell us the results. If it's wong, then hey it's wrong, but if it's not then hey, learned something new.

Are you aware at all of the difference between a pre-mapped car vs a custom tuned one? At all? A walk on the other side of the world but K-series motors make a considerable amount power from a pre-mapped K-Pro vs. A tuned K-Pro.

And since you're questioning the integrity (or validity) of respected members info on that site, I'll see if I can drag them over here for you. Maybe even get a video of a dyno run? We'll see.

1) The headers are part of the exhaust, hence the term exhaust covers it all.

2)Stage 2 on cars isn't a name given by tuners to a map or kit, stage 2 is widely understood to mean intakes, exhaust and a tune.

3) I don't need to ask anything, I know the bs answers already. Not to mention that if the guy is clueless enough to post a 90RWHP gain with those mods, then chances are he doesn't know his *** from his head about tuning.

4) You are asking me if I know the difference between a shelf tune and a tune? give me a break:bowrofl:. I had over 40 hours of dyno tune time logged on my 04 STI alone. Also you call this a "re-TUNED reflash" do you even know what that means? I've had dinner with Trey Cobb, nice guy.

5) I don't give two flying bleeps who that guy is or how respected he is.

6) A video of the run lol, what is that going to do? I can have my tuner adjust the dyno and then video tape a run on it and make 400RWHP on my untuned intakes; what does that prove? I will believe it when I see an independent dyno with a stock VQ37 doing a pull and setting a base line and then he can do a pull right after. I want to see that 90WHP gain. I can't see the graph, what's the AFR on it? Race fuel? not that it matters..

7) Don't bother, we don't need that kind of nonsense here.


Listen, you are telling me this guy threw on an intake, an exhaust and a "re-TUNED reflash" and gained..lets see...a 35% gain of power over stock? Don't you at all think there is something wrong with that? Like at all??? You are in for a rough brush with reality...

+200. Agreed with everything you said. King David..it doesnt matter how many times u post that link. Thats only one dyno of a 370 making 350whp. Now like i said before, if i see more independent dyno runs then ill be a believer. Till then im taking that graph with a grain of salt. If u really knew anything about tuning, u would know there is no way u can squeeze 90whp from any VQ with just and intake/full exhaust/and a tune regardless of how good the tune is. Thats why i said in my previous post i would expect around 300-330whp from a dynojet with a setup like that depending on variables.

Also RCZ i do agree with u that on a car like this ignition mods are useless but a underdrive crank pulley actually helps. I picked up about 7whp from my 350 with it so it does add up.

Just giving you a little dose of reality. I'm sorry you're getting so hurt over them. If you think I wont call you out in person, go ahead and try it. Ive heard BS responses to power claims, 1/4th times, and mods done plenty of times. Ive called them out everytime. But I prefer to do it in an intelligent way, rather than simply call the person a moron or a liar to their face.

Sorry, but I HAD a car that put down these numbers, and more, on a Mustang Dyno. I know what it takes to reach these power levels. I/H/E + tune wont do it. I'm sorry, but this is real life. Go out and do it yourself if you think you can actually do it.

The other mods will result in a leaned AF-ratio - but, hey, he got it tuned - so wheres the problem? Once again, I ask, are the injectors THAT strained? As far as not understanding RWHP versus Crank, who cares about crank HP? I was talking WHP the whole time.

You go right ahead and read "reported" dyno gains and assume everything just keeps adding up so simply, that you're going to pick up 70HP at the crank with basic mods. Sure, 400 crank translates to 340-350 WHP...on a Dynojet dyno, maybe. NOT a Mustang Dyno.

You know what, I dont even know why I mention all this stuff in here - why do we even say anything RCZ? Lets let the bench-racers get their mods, spend the cash, and just be disappointed. Let them go to the dyno, get a tune, and come back with their heads hanging low wondering, "why oh why, did I not get 350 WHP on a Mustang dyno? THE PEOPLE ON THE MESSAGE BOARD SAID THEY DID IT! IT MUST BE TRUE!"

cute kitten time



http://z.hubpages.com/u/303298_f520.jpg

:icon18:

Bravo, it was about time for a cute kitten wasn't it?

dont think we needed to pull out the kittens just yet haha.

Good to know about the underdrive pulley, thanks for the info.

Anytime man. I dunno if there is a difference betweeen an underdrive crank pulley and a light weight one like the one stillen offers. Maybe one and the same thing :confused:.

I know a good UD pulley on my LS1 was worth 6 or 7 HP, too. All depends on the car you're throwing it on, of course. But, I certainly would NEVER expect more than that on ANY car.

Exactly. I dont get why one person belives that you can get 90whp from a simple intake/full exhaust + tune on a mustang dyno. I have all the bolt ons on my 350 and i wanted to stay NA so i picked up everything that gave me more area under the curve rather than focusing on peak hp. The UD pulleys gave me an extra 7whp but made throttle response more crisp. Anyways King David needs to know that this is not a 4g63 or a 2jz or a LS motor where simple mods give big gains. The VQ no matter which form is almost fully tuned from the factory. Bolt ons usually will add some hp but mostly it serves as a sound and cosmetic upgrade. :twocents:

An underdriven pulley isn't the same as a lightened pulley. UD Pulleys are different sizes than the stock ones and as used to reduce hp-stealing parasitic resistance from the system. The problem with that is that there are some associated issues with under driving accessories like the AC and the alternator and may cause them to not perform the way they are supposed to. Most of the pulley derived power gains aren't from underdriving though...they are from weight savings. Underdriven pulleys seem to perform better than lightened ones because they too tend to be a lot lighter than stock so they have both added benefits.

The sad part is this is just the beginning for this site. There's going to be more people like KingDavid on this site spouting off bullsh!t numbers and trying to argue with us. They come from hondas and think they know everything about motors and think you can get 70 hp from headers. Over on my350z they get flamed and never come back and judging from him not replying I hope he doesn't come back either. In about a 4 years when you can buy a used 370 for a reasonable price they will be coming on and saying I have $3,000 I want to get a twin turbo kit and make 750 hp and have it as a daily driver.

Lol @ coming from Hondas and getting flamed. :rolleyes:

Get serious. I just left the thread alone. I believe I said "if it true, then it's true, if not, oh well." I couldn't really care less or more. One thing that stuck out is that if it really did make that much more power off a tuned reflash is that MORE people would have done it to begin with. I never said I knew everything about motors or anything like that. I'm starting to believe you have a problem with comprehension if it isn't illiteracy alone.

Ehhh, you're right, if it were true a lot more would have happened. Not to mention that this was supposedly in December.

http://smiliesftw.com/x/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif


What was I smoking...Lol.

Please keep the discussions going "without" any attacks or name calling. Everyone has an opinion and they can express it since it's a public forum. YOU also have the right to disagree with that opinion. Just explain why you disagree with it in a civilized manner with your constructive post WITHOUT any flaming . I am sure they will appreciate your post and knowledge. Thanks.

^^^^ what he said or there will be more kittens

You two (RCZ and Bobo) are making the mistake. You are comparing the VQ37 to the VQ35 and still assuming that they are similar enough to draw conclusions. THEY AREN'T. The whole basis of my argument is that the aren't. And you can spout off all you want about 4gs, and 2JZs and LSwhatevers I don't care. Do any of those motors have VVEL? Nope!

The question of how much power can be made is a little flawed as well. A significant portion of the power to be made comes from freeing up restrictions that Nissan built in (purposefully of incidentally). I'm sure in it's final years the G37/370Z will probably be advertised with 350HP or more. Nissan of course engineered in room to grow with 3.7L. In these early stages we figure out where the room is and milk it for all it's worth. For all we know this motor could be capable of 425HP NA and it's been down-rated to 332 for the whole "room to grow" philosophy. We just don't know.

You can also talk about mustang dyno vs others but that's a stupid way to claim that the mods didn't make power.

At 332 Crank Horsepower:
270RWHP DynoJet = 19% Drivetrain Loss
Est. 250RWHP Mustang = 25% Drivetrain Loss

Did the Crank HP change? I doubt it, since the engine must be within 5% of the marketed HP value. So lets add some mods...

We'll just use an arbitrary number like 400 Crank Hp (about where I estimate the mods I listed would put the 3.7L)

Dynojet 19% Loss = 324RWHP
Mustang 25% Loss = 300RWHP

So the mustang reads less, it doesn't change the power output one bit. Admittedly these numbers are abstract but the point is valid regardless of the numbers you plug in.

The original question was can you make 400HP NA? If you are looking for RWHP probably not (not to say it couldn't be done, it's just a hard claim to defend). If you are willing to accept that 324RWHP on a given dyno = 400 Crank HP then yeah you can probably get there with bolt ons and most importantly tunning (especially VVEL tunning).

P.S. It wasn't that you "called me out" that I have a problem with. I can listen to alternative opinions without taking it personally. That's called being objective (you should try it sometime). It was, however, the rude, diminutive, abrasive, and disrespectful manner in which you called me out that I guarantee wouldn't happen twice if you were looking me in the eye (although, I highly doubt it would even happen once).

I apologize for my earlier hateful post. I was out of line and I shouldn't have said that. What I mean by the dyno not being correct is that mustang dynos allow for correction factors and that can lead to inflated horsepower numbers. Dynojets are the standard for comparing hp because they do not allow for a correction factor. That leads me to doubt the 90hp gain on the mustang dyno when no one else has gotten gains close to those numbers. The VQ37VHR already produces almost 90hp per liter. That's a higher output than most motors. That leaves not as much horsepower to be gained N/A. Without VVEL tuning the VQ37VHR there is probably only going to be 40hp to 50hp gains. We all know that the stock exhaust on the 370z is very restrictive and there's a lot of horsepower that can be gained with boltons. This differentiates it from other VQ's but without the advantage of VVEL it's still the same engine layout as the 350z there's not much difference. I just don't think anywhere near 90 horsepower without extensive modification. No one knows how much horsepower can be made once VVEL is cracked. That's the biggest if and there's no point arguing about it because no one knows. I'm guessing 320rwhp with boltons without vvel tuning and 340rwhp with VVEL tuning. Those are my predictions on a dynojet starting at 280rwhp.

In the end final horsepower numbers mean nothing it's the horsepower over stock. Every dyno is different and some read higher than others and some are more accurate. Correction factors can cause a lot of arguements and I don't want to debate them I've already sated my point of view.

No, they don't have VVEL...they have turbos and a lot more displacement. VVEL doesn't stand for "magical power" either.

:roflpuke2:

No one said it makes a difference. The truth lies in the % gain over stock, not in the numbers. You are arguing for a 30-35% gain that is realized through "freeing up" 75RWHP (Down from your 90RWHP at least) from restrictive exhaust and intake systems. :ugh2:

A claim you were defending before. Lets stop talking about theory, use my experience. I dynoed in at 256WHP on a Mustang. That is a 23% loss from 332BHP. In order to have 400BHP, I would have to have 308WHP. That is 52RWHP more than I started with. As a percentage that is a 20.3% power increase from stock. Now, while that is MUCH more decent than the claim you made before, which was 35% increase, it is still pushing the boundaries of what is possible IMO. I think that you are closer to reality now though that you cut your expectations by almost half...I mean, I don't want to say I told you so, but...I kinda told you so. I think with every bolt on and tuning, it is possible to pick up around 45WHP... thats not quite 400BHP, but it is close...

I know this comment inst so much for me, however, I have no problems with anyone until they start questioning how much I know or don't know without much tact. If you want to argue a point, argue away, but be prepared and knowledgeable enough to cover all the angles. When you have a higher degree of certainty and proof to back it all up, arguments like this one can't turn into pissing contests. They go to hell in a hand basket when the "my boy did this and that's" start flying.

Everyone has a great POV on this topic. But going N/A and trying to obtain 400 HP to the crank. I will doubt it. I don't want to go and say it's impossible for I have no proof of whether it is or not. A car that puts out 332HP and your trying to go for a good 400HP, that's only a 68 HP increase. But now, when your on a dyno, let's say you have 282.2 HP to the wheels, that's exactly -15% loss. Your trying to gain, 400 RWHP? That is another 117.8 RWHP. Practically adding a RSX base model engine without, an engine. If your talking about CRANK, you would need to hit 340 RWHP, [going with the -15%]. That still means that you need to gain 57.8 RWHP. 57.8 RWHP doesn't seem like much of a gain. But believe me when I say this, an INTAKE system will NOT give you any RWHP gain. In fact, the stock intake system will give you the best gains. Headers, Full Exhaust, and tweaking with the compression ratios [which i believe will only allow you to run gears quicker or longer], and other bolt on parts. It's hard to say you will reach that high.

BUT here's the thing. Going TT is a beautiful thing for these Z's. First of all, dealing with the compression ratio's with these cars. They have plenty of space for the cams to intake those beautiful cold air to push it higher.

BTW, this is my opinion. If you disagree or hate me, fine. Cause my mom still loves me.. hahahahaha :P

Stillen supercharger for me :)

I'm definitely interested to see what Stillen comes up with!

I think you've still missed that my original post was regarding BHP not RWHP and I've always said 400BHP was attainable. My RWHP may of been quite off, but that was from a poor estimation of drive train loss. Anyway I think the end result is the same. We agree that 400 BHP should be attainable without forced induction. Also, let me remind everyone that this thread was asked as a complete hypothetical, it just simply hasn't been tested yet. All we can offer are estimations and in my estimate 400BHP is a reasonable goal.