Pushing past 9k rpms! Wet sump solution...
 

So as many of you know the oil pumps on our cars begin to go at just over 7500 rpms. The option most of us say to go is dry sump which is costly, complex and will cost you your air conditioning. Well as I was working on my build I had several conversations with GTM on the issue. They came up with a wet sump system that is rated to 10k rpms... However, I would say it is best suited for the 9-9.5k rpm range! This is the solution I will be going with in my builds here in the near future as soon as it is in stock.

By extending our power range an additional 2k rpms this will allow me the opportunity to get better runs and use out of our stock gearing. For those who track their cars, this will help eliminate oil starvation and ensure reliability.

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What ever your stance on GTM's business decisions please keep it to yourself.

Holy moly, what is the difference between wet and dry sump? I've been dreaming about something like this. Where is the mounting location? Last but not least, how much for this bad boy.

Some of the main benefits with a dry sump is constant oil supply, more power can be generated (by creating extra crankcase vacuum) and since there is no "oil pan", the engine can be lowered thus improving handling and a lower center of gravity. Oil capacity is no longer an issue, oil is no longer splashing against the crankshaft (which can lead to hp loss). While cornering, accelerating, braking and so on there is always the same amount of oil supplied (so no more oil starvation).
A wet system is what most cars come with and the cons to it are the opposite of what I mentioned above.
The bad about a dry system is how complex it could be and the extra weight due to additional pumps

Nice. Ok, I see how the oil gets out of the pan to the pump. Now where does the oil go back into the engine?

There is a tank that can be mounted anywhere in the vehicle. There are at least two pumps. One pulls the oil from the engine while the other pushes the oil back in. (in a nut shell)

There are more parts to the kit... I am curious to see the rest of the kit. As for a dry sump I would love to run one but don't need an extra complexity or weight and if a wet sump system can handle the extra rpm's I will take it all day.

So.... What your saying is that even with this wet sump supporting 10k rpms there is still a strong possibility that
It will fail, and with a dry sump you wouldn't have to worry about it?

Bullitt, what are the dimensions of this oil pan? and how much oil is designed to hold?

Lol, c'mon now...

Could our stock block handle anything past 8k reliably or is the jury still out in that?

Stock, no my friend.

That's a dry sump. Wet sump. Usually one pump. The oil pan is the tank. There is no external tank. That's why you see the oil pan for the GTM kit being so deep. Usually routing of the oil flow for a wet sump. From the pan to the pump, to the oil filter, to the cooler, and back into the engine oil gallery.

Dry sump. From the pan to the 1st stage of the pump, to the tank, to the 2nd stage of the pump. to the filter, to the cooler, back to the engine oil gallery.

Airborne!!

Fudge

Impressive piece of CNC work, but I don't see any baffles/flaps/trap-doors in the sump and to my mind, that makes the sump design a bit of a woftam.

It is not clear to me how the oil gets from the external pressure pump into the oil gallery either - modified front cover ??

Not a bad idea in principle, but if you are going to spend this much money, go Dailey Engineering and do it right.

This is going to be a very affordable option. Going Dailey is going to be $$$.

As for the size of the pan I'm not sure I just was told it's bigger than their other pan so I would guesstimate you would be closer to 9-10quarts.... Just guessing here since their other pan is in the 7-8quart range.

This is an upgraded wet sump system. As soon as their are pictures of a full setup I will share them.

Could a stock block sustain higher rpm's? So far yes... There hasnt been a failed VVEL yet that I know of and anyone who has run 8k+ rpms has blown their motor due to the oil pump failure. I guess I will have to try it out on my Nismo... 9k NA muahahahaha

There's another thread (or several) for that :icon17:


Bullitt, congrats on continuing to innovate and push your build :tup:

Thank JARBlue! That was the point of that statement. I will say this... These will not go on sale unless they are on the shelf ready to go. I had a long conversation last night with GTM and they fully recognized the issues from the past. With that said I will only be getting it when it is on the shelf. And depending on the interest it may be something regularly stocked. I should know general pricing in a few days but from what I was told this is a much less expensive option that will be a nice safe guard for our motors.

Ohhh and there will be a conversion path to the new V3 manifolds for those who are interested. After last nights discussion I made it very clear that the people didn't want the same issue from the old design and that they would be better suited upgrading people to the new design and new material construction.

The stock engines crank, cant handle high rpms with the stock rods n cylinders, even though u upgraded to a better oil pump system. You still need to change internals either light weight rods n cylinders on stock crank, but you must keep ur temp below 220F and rpm cap of 85xxx, or fully build internals, buuuut if ur going that route its better to just boost. If ur chasing #'s.

In my opinion its just a competition build, just for classification. In reality its tooo much $ for high rpm build. Or maybe u got that N/A build bug going.

Thank you for sharing bullitt5897!

I am curious about the manifold development, and previous GTR 370z manifold is there any more information and will number of gains be provided?

Thanks :tiphat:

YOU MADE MY DAY !!!

I've always wanted this mod for my stroked HR, Car easly capable for higher rpms but been always asking tuners to set the limiter @ 8k only due to the stock oil pump.
Yes there's Nismo Oil Pump for our HR/VHR but never trusted it ..

umm.. how much roughly you think it's going to be ?!

I'll believe it when I see it...

yea, why are they investing time in this when OneslowZ showed of the GTM manifold in his Z. I bet more people will buy that before this.

Dwnshift mentioned that they was changing the stock cranks after every race last year. This year, they're allowed a strong crank. Last year he said the cranks had cracks in them after most races. BUT remember this is on a full flat out racecar, not a DD/track car. For someone like me. This would take the worry out of doing trackdays. :D

So from the little bit of information I've gotten off this is that just like with any build on a stock block it all depends how you hard you drive the car. Cooling seems like theJpr issue.

Main*

Cooling and the fact that the pumps fail at higher rpms... If the pump fails the engine fails... This is a great safeguard!

Wonder how a stock VQ will perform 12psi tune at 10k RPMs..

If you could get maximum performance safely why not?

You would need turbos designed to flow efficiently at that high an rpm, which I think would be difficult. For example, in an interview with an engineer for the ferrari 488 gtb said they limited the rpm to 8k because the turbos couldnt keep up and it would be spinning the motor more without making anymore power.

But dont get me wrong, if I could have a 9k TT Z I would rev to redline even if it doesnt make more power :tup:

Pushing past 9k rpms! Wet sump solution...
 

Ive kept my limit at 7500 (even at track days) waiting for something like this. Wet sump is a bit heavy and very expensive that Ive seen...

Subed to see how this one goes

(Edit I just had a chat with Z1 and they apparently run 7800 rpm all day on their track cars with no problems. I'm sticking with 7500 anyhow just to be safe until I upgrade my oil pump/sump)

There is a guy that spins an evo at 12k and makes god like power. Takes some deep pockets to make it work.

I guess he is running a humongous turbo and in order to keep it "spooled up" he needs to rev that high. And yes, deeeeeep pockets are needed since at those levels of rpm's there is something giving way all the time.
I remember the Mazda RX-7 when people where pushing the 9,500 rpm band and flywheels were coming of the vehicle thus injuring the drivers. But it can happen in any engine that spins that fast.

Geez, thats not cool

What's not cool? The flywheel severing the driver's feet and injuring others or revving that high? :stirthepot:
I know what you meant.

I like my feet hahah

I knew I had this pic somewhere.

Think the Revving 9k with a good manifold like 1slow370z and jun cams could make 400whp on a stock block or with some head work if that is even possible?

How long do you want it to last ..........

Talking as I will not drive the car hard. More for pleasure and the mind set if it blows rebuild the motor. I figure it is like boosting the car for max power as long as you don't abuse it, te car will last. What are your thoughts.