Hi rpm oil starvation
 

Can a stock z generate enough g forces in a sustained turn on stock Advan tires to cause high rpm oil starvation?

Pulling far less than 1 G, you'll hit fuel starvation first.

At high enough revs, any oil pump bearing may fail, but I know of no such problem associated with hard cornering in this car.

A good general answer to a general question.

How about this specific infrequent but very possible driving event. Imagine your daily driver on some cloverleaf interchange: fuel tank at least 1/2 full, sustained left sweeping turn at around .9 G, 7000 rpm. There probably won't be fuel starvation. The hi rpm will tend to hold oil in the upper part of the engine and lower the oil level in the pan. The G's will push oil to the right side of the oil sump and away from the pickup.

This may seem picky but if an aftermarket oil pan will prevent engine damage in this situation, I want one.

Dry Sump will solve that problem. Initial cost expensive, but worth it if you plan on tracking the car and sustaining high rpm's

Actually, on a hard right (I think), you will almost definitely see a loss of fueling, even at half a tank -- it's been documented numerous times on here.

Regarding oil, I don't think that has been a problem relevant to the oil pick up on the track -- revving over 7700 RPM has been associated with some issues, but not g's, at least to the best of my knowledge.

The primary oil problems that seem to crop up on the track are all due to oil temp (ECU imposes "limp mode" at ~260* F).

You might try posting/searching through the track forum, but I'm pretty sure no one has managed to blow a motor due to oil starvation (well, other than those who were unlucky enough to get oil burning motors...).

As to a dry sump, I only person I know of one person who did that, and it was to deal with safe rev levels, not g-related oil starve.

How about a baffled oil pan? Like the one I have. :D

huh, that's cool. has fins too for cooling. :tup:

Lets point out that your pan is not simply baffled, but that it has active baffles!

Big, huge, epic difference. A static baffle will block fluid transfer just as well as it retains it, and in a pumping system a static baffle will only promote pickup starvation rather than cure it as the pickup will deplete the reserve fluid immediately and the baffles will slow the refill.

This is also why designing fixes for fuel system starvation is NOT as easy as everyone thinks.

Yep, there is 4, one-way trap doors in that pan.

It appears that the surest non dry sump solution to oil starvation available today would be the GTM pan with extra oil capacity and active baffles. Also the increased surface area of the pan will offer a little extra cooling relative to the stock pan. If the conditions of operation (rpm’s, oil temp) remain the same for the new pan, the oil change interval could be lengthened too.

Thanks for all the inputs to this thread.

For more on oil starvation occurrences go to this thread:

http://www.the370z.com/track-autocro...ml#post2714032

Well, the GTM pan doesn't have active baffles. And good luck on getting anything from GTM.

Rusty, where did you get yours from?

My oil pan is from AM Performance, which is no longer in business. :( I got mine from Shamu when he was rebuilding his engine, and went with a dry sump system. Think there was only about 20 of the oil pans made. :(

:yum:

Too bad it's no longer available

Rusty, did you install it yet?

It's been on since last summer and did 2 trackdays with it. Knowing you, I know the next question. :icon17: Text me tonight about 8pm est. Ok? :icon17:

If Phunk is going to use it as a template...I wants one :excited:

LOL I dont really need the pan in my hand, I can just as easily get the bolt pattern and flange off my Z. Its only a nights work of CAD. But I am curious about the hinge system for the baffles. IMHO its very important that it be a reliable system that remains active. If it ever seized up, its going to be bad news by drying out that pickup in short order. Rather than wing it as a first-timer in active oil pan baffling, I would like to at least examine how others have done it first.

Simple 2D billet parts like that are by far the easiest products to get from concept to reality. I dont have enough of those. Do we know for sure nobody else is going to sell that pan? I dont want to step on anyone's toes.

Not sure what is meant by "active baffles, but the GTM pan has one-way trap door baffles that help keep the oil at the pick up tube. It's a great pan from a lousy company. :cool:

^ It is comically wide... but might be a decently functional part.

Me too !!!!!!

The pictures of inside of the GTM pan that I seen, just had the baffles cast into it. Didn't see anything that looked like trap doors. ;)

The GTM pan looks strange but there might be a useful function served by the width of the pan beyond that of the gasket surface. The oil held in the “wings” of the oil pan is mostly stagnant in normal street operation. However, I would think that in a high G turn at hi rpm that extra quart of oil in the wing on the inside of the turn would tend to flow through the active baffles into the pickup area to keep the oil level around the pickup high enough to avoid sucking air.

I think the largest impact it will have is making it very difficult to change your oil filter.

It's not too bad, but if you have a Z-speed under-tray, the trap door will be useless.


I believe your thinking of the Greddy pan http://www.greddy.com/upload/img/13525904_HRpan_b.jpg, this is optional baffle insert on the GTM pan
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps3785078c.jpghttp://i313.photobucket.com/albums/l...psac3ca6c9.jpg

You make it, ill buy it, baffled oil pan that actually works aka am perf or "phunks oil pan forthcoming" (fingers crossed) along with nismo oil pump are on my short list.

Am I missing something? Has this been a problem for anyone or is this just you more oil in the car to help keep it cool? We trashed a Trans Am engine because of oiling problem and I remember looking it up about the Z right after that and the only problems I found were when the rev limiter was moved up.

I remember seeing the GTM pan without the optional baffle. ;)

Yep. solutions to a problem that only exists hypotheticly. And the oil pump gernading at high rpms won't be solved by baffles, the nismo race oil pump will solve it for much less then a dry sump setup.

I wish there was some solid information on the NISMO pump. Last I heard, the nismo DE/revup pumps grenade just the same with increased RPM. Havent heard any first hand information on the HR/VHR versions but I assume its the same case.

This is why the Grand Am race teams went dry sump - the NISMO oil pumps gears are just a better steel - they just tolerate the harmonics for longer, but are still subject to failure under sustained rpm >8500. The only place for definitive information will be Doran Racing or NISMO Japan and the key is getting the information - they are usually reluctant to provide information to other than race teams.

This is not a "road-user" issue, but a "race" issue. Since my engine is ultimately destined for a race series where 1-hour and 3-hour races are the norm, I am vitally interested in oil pump reliability and I am happy to contemplate dry-sump from the get-go as a consequence.

Ross Performance in Albury, NSW (see here :| Ross Performance Engine Parts - Metal Jacket - ROSS Tuffbond Harmonic Balancers - Crankshaft Damper - ROSS Performance Parts |: and follow links for dry-sump/oil pump drives) are working on an external oil pump (Gilmer belt drive) for the VQ/HR as well as an "affordable" dry-sump kit (by comparison to the Dailey Engineering "gold-standard" - it won't be "cheap").

I would be happy with 8200 or so regular use.

I have played a lot with the idea of getting a GT-R oil pump in here, even bought the pump... But it would require quite a bit of custom work and I am not sure I have the time for it. If the NISMO pump is good for 8200 I am all over it and that is good enough for a powerhouse straight-line engine. Otherwise I dont think I would take a stock pump past 7800.

My whole reasoning for wanting to get the nismo oil pump is b/c i want to build a moderate n/a car with all available mods along with a raised redline of 7800 -7900 rpm and have it be reliable as if stock. Were i wanting 8k rpm +, i would be looking into dry sump but honestly, for a noncompetitive track car, its just not worth it so nismo oil pump, baffled pan (eventually) or worst case spacer and just under 8k rpm limit and try to max out power with those constraints.

Btw, last nismo was tracked reg for 3 years with a 7900rpm redline, stock oil pump no issues.

Any more thoughts on when you might have a production oil pan available?

I am going to order some billet material for other production today or tomorrow. I just ran out under my Z and measured 14x8x2.5 would be large enough to just barely stay above the crossmember. I will get some bricks on the way for it. Maybe try and push through a quick batch of 7-8 and see how it goes.

If you are measuring the cross member clearance, would I be wrong in assuming that it will increase oil capacity or does the active baffle system eliminate the increased depth?

I dont have a stock pan anymore to measure its depth, but I doubt it goes down 2.5"... so we would be increasing capacity a little bit I believe. The baffle system will no-doubt consume some of the added volume.

Do you need mine for a mock up? :tiphat:

Well... if you arent using the car it sure wouldnt hurt. But I would never ask you to make the car immobile if its otherwise all together and running! I might be able to find some more detailed pictures with what I am looking for. I remember there being a lot of posts about that pan back when it came out.

I still have my stock pan and spacer to use.

On another note. The AM Perf oil pan uses a modded stock pick-up tube. It's cut and rewelded at a different angle.