Brake Fade a risk for first time tracker?

Island_370 · 12-17-2011, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

don't mix different types of fluid, ie dot 3 oem with dot 4 rbf 600. Do it again, it's a safety issue.

There are no safety issues with mixing DOT3, DOT4, or DOT 5.1 fluids. It is like adding 5w-40 to a motor with 5w-30. They have different properties and will change from being blended, but it won't hurt anything.

DOT5 brake fluid should never be mixed with the others.

FL 4Motion · 12-17-2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island_370

There are no safety issues with mixing DOT3, DOT4, or DOT 5.1 fluids. It is like adding 5w-40 to a motor with 5w-30. They have different properties and will change from being blended, but it won't hurt anything.

DOT5 brake fluid should never be mixed with the others.

won't mixing dot 3 and dot 4 lower the boiling point for the fluid tho? He's going to be trakcing the car so with a lower boiling point, he will be more likely to cook the brake fluid thereby, on the track, increasing the risk of having a brake failure, ie, a safety issue on track, not on the street.

Island_370 · 12-18-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

won't mixing dot 3 and dot 4 lower the boiling point for the fluid tho? He's going to be trakcing the car so with a lower boiling point, he will be more likely to cook the brake fluid thereby, on the track, increasing the risk of having a brake failure, ie, a safety issue on track, not on the street.

Dry DOT 3 is better than wet (meaning old) DOT4. So if the fluid in the car is old DOT4, adding fresh DOT3 will actually help. Fresh fluid is always better than old fluid. Per the standards.....Wet DOT5.1 (the best glycol fluid) boils lower than new DOT3.

So leaving in old RBF600 may (and I emphasize MAY) be worse than new DOT3. But mixing DOT3, 4, and 5.1 is not like mixing those with DOT5. DOT5 can only be used with DOT5. The fluids cannot be mixed.

I agree with you....if going to the track, shortcuts are never good.

brucelidat · 12-18-2011, 02:59 PM

So did the track day/course at Buttonwillow yesterday. Had no brake problems, but I wasn't braking as much as I should have probably. Hit a few turns too fats, heh. But in cold temps, even on the track, my oil temps were only getting up to like 190 and sometimes was under 180. I may need a new smaller oil cooler block off plate just for winter track days.

FL 4Motion · 12-18-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island_370

Dry DOT 3 is better than wet (meaning old) DOT4. So if the fluid in the car is old DOT4, adding fresh DOT3 will actually help. Fresh fluid is always better than old fluid. Per the standards.....Wet DOT5.1 (the best glycol fluid) boils lower than new DOT3.

So leaving in old RBF600 may (and I emphasize MAY) be worse than new DOT3. But mixing DOT3, 4, and 5.1 is not like mixing those with DOT5. DOT5 can only be used with DOT5. The fluids cannot be mixed.

I agree with you....if going to the track, shortcuts are never good.

thanks for the explaination.

We (wife and I) just do a full brake/clutch fluid flush every 6 months with RBF 600, I prefer to be safe than sorry, even if it is a bit of overkill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brucelidat

So did the track day/course at Buttonwillow yesterday. Had no brake problems, but I wasn't braking as much as I should have probably. Hit a few turns too fats, heh. But in cold temps, even on the track, my oil temps were only getting up to like 190 and sometimes was under 180. I may need a new smaller oil cooler block off plate just for winter track days.

/\ sounds like you had fun. I'm sure as you get faster, your oil temps will correspondingly go up a bit.

brucelidat · 12-18-2011, 09:20 PM

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martin82 · 12-18-2011, 11:22 PM

how did your tires hold up?
My stock tires look like this after willow springs!! only 2,500 miles.

SiRay6 · 12-19-2011, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brucelidat

So did the track day/course at Buttonwillow yesterday. Had no brake problems, but I wasn't braking as much as I should have probably. Hit a few turns too fats, heh. But in cold temps, even on the track, my oil temps were only getting up to like 190 and sometimes was under 180. I may need a new smaller oil cooler block off plate just for winter track days.

Exactly what I thought would happen. No need for race pads (yet)

BW does not need that much braking...all about momentum. How did the AMS pads hold up? Did they feel better than stock by a little, almost the same, or much better? Do you have a review?

Also, what config did you end up doing? CW or CCW? Did you do a write up of your first track event or one of BW?

It sounds to me like your oil temps were great. Were you hoping for higher temps?

Nice pictures...were you doing CCW? one of the photos looked like a ccw config? Lastly, VDC off or on?

-Ray

brucelidat · 12-19-2011, 02:39 AM

Yeah, we were doing counter-clockwise. in the morning session they had the track split. First timers on one shorter half and the returners on the faster half. After lunch, they had us on the whole track with us and the returner group alternating for 20 minute sessions. There are a bunch of former racecar driver instructors there and you can stop by anytime in the pit and ask for advice or for them to ride with you or drive you for a lap. Lunch was pretty good too.

The slower half of the track is tough. There are several cirves one right after another and if you don't set up right for the first, you're basically screwed for all 3. Also, the passing zone is short and right before a slow turn so it make sit tough to pass if the other driver isn't really letting off the throttle and assuming you can just zoom by them by giving you space because you hit that turn too fast then. It's also a wide double apex turn which make sit tricky also. There are much better passing zones when the whole track is combined.

The AMS pads felt fine, didn't notice a huge difference, but my main goal with them wasn't really improved braking, but just to avoid brake fade. Not sure if the stock ones would have faded but these didn't so they worked for me that day at least.

Oil temps were actually low some times. Only when i was really getting on it did it get up to like 190. Most of the time it was barely hitting 180 or below. I have a 7at, but I was driving in manual mode. Was in 4th most of the time with RPMs between 3.5k to 6k. When I started getting close to 100 mph ( I only made it up to about 110) on the straights and the RPMs were hitting 6k+ and sort of staying there I would switch into 5th, but was mostly in 4th. Don't know if it was my driving style or what, but oil temps weren't going as high as I would think would be ideal.

Outside temps were probably in the 50s. Dropped into the 30s at night and was probably 40s during the morning sessions. I was a little nervous when the instructor was driving me (it happens when you first get on the track and when they first combine the tracks full so it's at the beginning of those sessions) before the car could get up t temp and he was going fats and hard and i was saw the temps were below 180. I didn't say anything to him, though, haha. If I track again in this type of weather, I may make a smaller block of plate for the track even, maybe a 20% block off.

brucelidat · 12-19-2011, 01:32 PM

btw, I am a beginner and have no ego about my driving ability. I was just explaining how I was driving for oil temp context. If anyone has advice or if I am totally driving in the wrong RPM range/gear, I will gladly accept your words of wisdom.

martin82 · 12-19-2011, 01:35 PM

When I was at buttonwillow with a cayman S, I was on 3rd and 4th gear a lot. At willowsprings on my 2012z I was on 3rd and 4th a lot with barely touching 5th on the high speeds but I was pretty much redlining.

brucelidat · 12-19-2011, 01:41 PM

Hmm, I'll try to keep it in higher RPMs next time. First real performance driving for me, not used to driving up in that RPM range.

SiRay6 · 12-19-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brucelidat

Hmm, I'll try to keep it in higher RPMs next time. First real performance driving for me, not used to driving up in that RPM range.

Bruce, you have a great attitude and I don't think it should matter how high your rpms are...some drivers are hard on their cars...some are not. For example, that Tarzan guy I heard was hard on the cars he drove...but when Billy Johnson drove my 95 integra...he was always shifting early and not redlining and his times were always faster than mine

I think rpm range depends on power band, driver and course layout. I wouldn't want to be redlining on Riverside @ BW...I'd rather be lower in the rpm and not need to shift by the end of that 90+ mph turn.

You're off to a great start and having instruction is a great idea. I'm surprised they divided the track into two sections. What driving clinic was this? I assume you started on the cotton corners side based off your description of the turns. This seems like it would be very helpful in improving and getting faster. Maybe I'll take this driving clinic next time myself

Thank you for sharing...I haven't been on track for 2 years so I'm living vicariously through you. I sold my integra and I only took my Sti once...I'm hoping the Z will get me back into hpde's except I'm afraid of rwd

-Ray

brucelidat · 12-19-2011, 04:13 PM

They split the track in the morning session with the faster half for returners and the slower side for first-timers. After lunch, they combine the 2 tracks. I forget which side Riverside is on, but Mazda turn which is the slowest turn out there is on the faster half along with the esses.

martin82 · 12-19-2011, 06:05 PM

yeah good advice ^, only reason why I asked about the higher redlines etc was because it was also first time with my Z at the track. First took it easy shifted around 6K, then after lunch started really getting on it, you can see the front tires pic above. Towards the end of the day I was reving higher to 7.5K to get my shifting better on the car once I started to get to know this car. A lot of times I was up a gear too high at the beginning. Got a lot faster towards the end pushing the car harder and hard, I actually lost it on turn 3 with vdc off fishtailed twice until I got it under control!

To tell you the truth I shouldn't have been pushing so hard with everything stock, but car felt good, suspension bit too soft, will need sways, springs or coilovers, and brake upgrade.

12-18-2011, 02:59 PM	#94 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 30	So did the track day/course at Buttonwillow yesterday. Had no brake problems, but I wasn't braking as much as I should have probably. Hit a few turns too fats, heh. But in cold temps, even on the track, my oil temps were only getting up to like 190 and sometimes was under 180. I may need a new smaller oil cooler block off plate just for winter track days. __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

12-18-2011, 09:20 PM	#96 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 30	[IMG][/IMG] [IMG][/IMG] [IMG][/IMG] __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

12-19-2011, 02:39 AM	#99 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 30	Yeah, we were doing counter-clockwise. in the morning session they had the track split. First timers on one shorter half and the returners on the faster half. After lunch, they had us on the whole track with us and the returner group alternating for 20 minute sessions. There are a bunch of former racecar driver instructors there and you can stop by anytime in the pit and ask for advice or for them to ride with you or drive you for a lap. Lunch was pretty good too. The slower half of the track is tough. There are several cirves one right after another and if you don't set up right for the first, you're basically screwed for all 3. Also, the passing zone is short and right before a slow turn so it make sit tough to pass if the other driver isn't really letting off the throttle and assuming you can just zoom by them by giving you space because you hit that turn too fast then. It's also a wide double apex turn which make sit tricky also. There are much better passing zones when the whole track is combined. The AMS pads felt fine, didn't notice a huge difference, but my main goal with them wasn't really improved braking, but just to avoid brake fade. Not sure if the stock ones would have faded but these didn't so they worked for me that day at least. Oil temps were actually low some times. Only when i was really getting on it did it get up to like 190. Most of the time it was barely hitting 180 or below. I have a 7at, but I was driving in manual mode. Was in 4th most of the time with RPMs between 3.5k to 6k. When I started getting close to 100 mph ( I only made it up to about 110) on the straights and the RPMs were hitting 6k+ and sort of staying there I would switch into 5th, but was mostly in 4th. Don't know if it was my driving style or what, but oil temps weren't going as high as I would think would be ideal. Outside temps were probably in the 50s. Dropped into the 30s at night and was probably 40s during the morning sessions. I was a little nervous when the instructor was driving me (it happens when you first get on the track and when they first combine the tracks full so it's at the beginning of those sessions) before the car could get up t temp and he was going fats and hard and i was saw the temps were below 180. I didn't say anything to him, though, haha. If I track again in this type of weather, I may make a smaller block of plate for the track even, maybe a 20% block off. __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

12-19-2011, 01:32 PM	#100 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 30	btw, I am a beginner and have no ego about my driving ability. I was just explaining how I was driving for oil temp context. If anyone has advice or if I am totally driving in the wrong RPM range/gear, I will gladly accept your words of wisdom. __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

12-19-2011, 01:41 PM	#102 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 30	Hmm, I'll try to keep it in higher RPMs next time. First real performance driving for me, not used to driving up in that RPM range. __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

12-18-2011, 11:22 PM	#97 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 19	how did your tires hold up? My stock tires look like this after willow springs!! only 2,500 miles.

12-19-2011, 01:35 PM	#101 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 19	When I was at buttonwillow with a cayman S, I was on 3rd and 4th gear a lot. At willowsprings on my 2012z I was on 3rd and 4th a lot with barely touching 5th on the high speeds but I was pretty much redlining.

12-19-2011, 04:13 PM	#104 (permalink)
brucelidat A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: temple city, ca Posts: 2,432 Drives: 2011 370z 7AT GM Sp Rep Power: 30	They split the track in the morning session with the faster half for returners and the slower side for first-timers. After lunch, they combine the 2 tracks. I forget which side Riverside is on, but Mazda turn which is the slowest turn out there is on the faster half along with the esses. __________________ Works Emotion CR Ultimate - FI CBE w/ 18" resonators - Ecutek - eibach sways - Quaife - FI LTH w/race cats - kw v3 - spl - Topgunz SC - 488whp 398trq

12-19-2011, 06:05 PM	#105 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 19	yeah good advice ^, only reason why I asked about the higher redlines etc was because it was also first time with my Z at the track. First took it easy shifted around 6K, then after lunch started really getting on it, you can see the front tires pic above. Towards the end of the day I was reving higher to 7.5K to get my shifting better on the car once I started to get to know this car. A lot of times I was up a gear too high at the beginning. Got a lot faster towards the end pushing the car harder and hard, I actually lost it on turn 3 with vdc off fishtailed twice until I got it under control! To tell you the truth I shouldn't have been pushing so hard with everything stock, but car felt good, suspension bit too soft, will need sways, springs or coilovers, and brake upgrade.

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