Cheap & easy brake cooling mod
 

Group,

Since last year, i was looking for a simple solution for keeping the brakes at a lower temperature during lapping sessions (to avoid ice mode...). I think that some sponsors are "working" on it but no finished product has come to the market so far.

Member “ResIpsa” did something very similar (ref: http://www.the370z.com/diy-section-d...ing-ducts.html) but having mount points close to the rotors was too complicated for me i.e. didn’t know if it would keep up with sustained heat & chassis movement during events.

So, what i did is based on ModShack "Fag vent DYI", I redirected the vents directly through the wheel well without any other changes.

I thought that speed would bring enough fresh air to the rotors to warn them off between each turns without having to be directly on the rotors. This set-up is actually used by Porsche on GT-2&3’s without any mounting points…
My first event is mid-May, so I will report on rotor temps and overall changes feedback.

Any thoughts / comments are welcomed!

Cheers,


Philipp
p.s. For those wondering the effects of water and road debris on the brakes & rotors; no visible signs or noticeable issues so far.

cool. but is that enough porting to the brakes? :confused: would it be better to have the port longer and directed at the calipers?

looks interesting. I'd like to see how it performs when you get some numbers in.

I saw this in person actually a week ago, very clean modification. I'm thinking it will provide what you're looking for

Philipp, I'll have to get back to you on that garage on St. Jacques for exhaust install :)

I have some doubt on this setup about how much it would sucessfully cold down the rotor. it could for sure but not much..
with all of that turbulence created by the tire/wheel ,, i wonder how much of the fresh air would find his way to the rotor.

would be nice to datalog the temp around the rotor with and without that mod.

C6 corvette uses a very similar setup, except they have a cap on it that draws it down from around a 5" duct to a 1" opening. The Z06 has a flat duct with a 90 degree bend in it that hugs the fenderwell.

Looks good, but it doesnt look too effective.

To be frank with you, i have no hard proof that this mod will prevent brake "ice mode" i have been experiencing during sessions. I am looking for enough fresh air to keep the rotors from reaching the temp level (whatever it is) when they do not work as they should... Usually, on a 30 minutes session, i wouldn’t have any issues before the last 10 to 5 minutes.

I just hope the extra fresh air will keep the rotors temperature below that threshold.

Will try to get some rotor temp readings during initial lapping day in May.

Raoul,
As mentioned before, it is an initial try... I'm aiming to keep the rotors temp just below ice mode zone... maybe this will allow enough fresh air between corners to keep good braking capacity. I will report back.
Phil

Nicely cut hole in the fender liner, BTW.

Yeah, that hole didn't look like it was too easy to do.

Check this out. Scroll about half way down. Just a simple plate to bolt up to. I say simple. But could cost more than you would want to pay being there would be some welding involved. Also scroll all the way to the bottum and check out the black end piece attachment that could be had.

Brake cooling ducts - anything new for 2010 - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

I'm really going to see what I can make for myself. Intake ducts for the front are dime a dozen from what I've seen. But the one to the rotor are something else. I feel it could be easily be done though. More or less a flat solid piece (but pretty) with a hole where a ring can be welded to to connect the piping. I'm going to check out are cars this weekend to see if the exsiting dust shield can be transformed somehow. Glad I have several friends who can tig.

They've got some nice solutions over there.

looks good philipp, hopefully it works well, have you ever had ice mode at icar? sessions are twenty minutes there and I only get it on my last two laps there

really? he probably just used a hole saw like this...

http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/0425806-11.jpg

Good to hear from you! :tiphat:
Never had any braking issues at ICAR. Let me know if you return to that track this summer.

They got some nice breaking solution in there. Will definately go that route (welding etc) if this mod deosn't workout!


Actually, the exact same kit :tup:...

I think this 'small' change will actually have rather profound effects. Given that the air in the wheel well is very stagnant to begin with, that tube will pipe in quite a bit of air which will exit both around the tire and through the wheel (aka past the rotors). While it's not the same as directing air directly to the rotor, I'd put money on it being beneficial with real world significance in temp reduction. The only change I would suggest is to have the cutout positioned higher in the wheel well. The current location is very low and may just have the fresh air sucked down by the low pressure under the car. Perhaps positioning the hole up closer to where that pop rivet holds the liner and then downsizing the tubing to 2" with a further run and turn toward the rotor could improve the design (think 2" PVC from the wheel liner with an elbow rather than flexible ducting). This would give a 'ram air' effect and help direct the air toward the rotor. Just have to downsize enough so the wheel doesn't rub on the pipe.

This won't stop Ice Mode from happening. It WILL reduce brake fade and hopefully stop the dust boots from disintegrating!

Spearfish,
I thought about giving it a better angle to the rotor plates but chassis & suspension part couldn’t allow drilling on the upper part of the wheel well. If you have any DYI on please let me know since this suggestion was to build a simple cooling mod.
Regarding PVC, I’ve spent a couple of hours trying to make a PCV ducking but i couldn’t make it work properly and allowing enough flexibility for chassis movement (turn in, braking, accel...). For me, high heat resistent tubing was more convenient and user friendly.
Also, regarding the fact that colder air will not reduce Ice mode, could you be more specific? I am running DOT4 brake & clutch fluids and Stoptech pads on all corners and do not have any brake fade.
Pls advice,
regards Phil

i will be at icar as much as possible phillip, it opens may 19th i hope to make it there for the lapping session. So im sure I will see you there atleast once this season!

I meant no disrespect sir. I think you did a great job and hopefully it will help with fade. Not sure if it will help with icemode though, as someone said, icemode happens for other reasons. There's another thread on this section where icemode is more thoroughly discussed; you should check it out.

I like the simple setup and truly hope it's helpful. Just need a good way to quantify the effect. Do you have a grill radar temp gun? It could help with tracking your rotor and caliper temps, and hopefully we'll see a drop with this setup.

As for ice mode, it's an inherent issue with the ABS system. The ice mode thread dives deeply into this topic, but in short, differential wheel speeds or very abrupt brake application cause a drop in braking force and the perception that you're sliding on ice. It's not temp related but can be exacerbated by pad compound. I've seen many many explanations but few solutions. Guys with other car brands have swapped in a race version of their ABS computer (ie from the Corvette GT2 race team for $$$$) with resolution of the problem. The cheap bandaid fix is to briefly and rapidly release the brake and then reapply which will clear the problem. Getting your foot to lift off the brakes when you want them to work 100% is not an easy task though.

maybe one can temporarily place a thermocouple in the wheel well area and compare temps with the vent open and blocked?

.... ok, maybe that was too easy. :icon14:

Sprearship,
Tanks for the clarification. I will report on rotor temps from my tracking session mid-May. As suggested by Kenchan, i'll take temps with blocked and open air vents.

:icon18:

hey philipp- how did the experiment turn out? :)

lol... Sorry Spearfish for the misspell. I should definitely remove the "auto spelling" option from the ipad…

Kenchan, lapping session is mid-May. I'll report back.

Track results (strange...)
 

:mad: Your guess was right...

Let's say it wasn't conclusive....




Group,

Here's some feedback on the cooling effects of this mod. Over the week-end, i had my first lapping event at the Mont-Tremblant circuit. After each 30 minute lapping session, i recorded the front rotors temps with a digital laser reader.

Voila the results with open air ducs and blocked air ducs:

Morning runs:
- 8h30-9h00 (open air ducs) Left Rotor: 488F & Right rotor: 411F
- 9h30-10h00 (open air ducs) LR: 501F & RR: 440F
- 10h30-11h00 (blocked air ducs) LR: 490F & RR: 434F :confused:

Afternon runs:
- 13h00-13h30 (open air ducs) LR: 535F & 503F
- 14h00-14h30 (blocked air ducs) LR: 511F & 488F
I stopped recording rotor temps after this point...

Track notes:
- This great track has a majority of right turns;
- The front left wheel is receiving the most stress;
- At the end of the straight line i was reaching 138MPH (hoping for some serious air to warned the brakes).

Conclusions:
Based on those numbers, i have to conclude that this mod is worthless...
Even worst, it seems that the centrifude force of the wheel spinning does a better job in keeping the temp down then having the air ducs:icon14:.

Can anyone put a light into these findings?

Thanks,



Phil

Att. Pics with blocked air ducs.

Do you have the ambient temperatures from each run around the track? I would think that with a large swing in ambient temperatures you might see data that seems nonsensical. Did you let the brakes cool to a certain temperature before each run? Perhaps measuring the temperature differential may give more clues to the effectiveness.

Also one other point -- are you braking exactly at the same point and for the same duration each lap and each session? Otherwise, how do we know if we are going as fast/braking as hard?

I think more data is needed. To the unproven eye however, it looks like this small pipe will have little effect on brake teperature.

Perhaps devise a test where we have one car with ducts, one without, or go blocked/unblocked as in this test. Drive to a certain speed, brake hard to a stop. Measure temperature quickly. Drive 1 mile without braking at a constant high rate of speed then coast to a stop. Measure temperature again. A significant drop with ducts and smaller drop without would indicate that they are working. Drop with both ducted and non-ducted would indicate that the cooling from centrifugal motion overrides the ducting and it is not worthwhile. Just an idea.

What is considered high temps for are brakes anyways?

Kruel,

The temperature was pretty consistent from 52 early morning to 70 at peak. It became cloudy and north winds picked around noon. Showers were present on the last run. On the asphalt, it gane about 30F from 45 to 74f at peak.

On the braking note, i was in the advance group, with no passing regulations (besided basic pointing). These guys are pretty good (track junkies), so i didn't lose or gain any noticeable time when being passed or me passing them. Whatever the traffic, i ran between 2.02 t0 2.13 each laps (actually i spoung out on an ran a 3.05 on 1 occasion in the afternoon).

Cheers,
Phil

Sphon,
The highest i got on my left side was 532F. This is after half a track warn down lap + pit lane entry time + me stopping at entrance to park + me running to my box to get the laser reader. This equals to about 120-140 seconds after the last serious braking zone.
On the other side, my laser temp reader couldn't read my friend M3 since it was maxed out at 608F... Don't forget that i: parked, ran, recorded my temps way before it took a reading of his rotors... I can't even imagine the initial heat these things had to sustain.
Notes on the 2010 BMW temps:
- car is new and has less than 8k miles;
- owner: is a national karting competiter.
Cheers,
Phil

Stock pad, probably 800-1000F, higher for race pads. You have to worry about fluid boiling too.

nice OP...


You'll get alot of flak for this DIY for not giving adequate air. It's better than none at all even if it's blasting against the rotors and not focused on the rotor.

Still props for doing it bro.....

Cossie, any idea on high temps for the stock rotor?

Philipp- thanks for the data! +rep :tup:

i was quite surprised to see the temps rise on blocked. (most likely not) but almost seemed like it was forcing engine heat into the wells or something. :confused:

regardless thanks again for the experiment and results. :tup:

Kenchan,
I was also very surprised about this finding results:ugh2:. Not sure if the methodology was "science proof" but the end results weren't convincing...
Because of all the issues surrounding brake's overheating, i really can't wait for an effective solution!
cheers
Phil

Hey, I was the creator of the DIY Brake Cooling Ducts post. Great job of scientifically testing your mod at the track. I never took the opportunity to test mine but at least I know that my ducts completely solved my ice mode problem at the track. When I saw your post I thought it should work to at least lower temps a little.

I suspect the problem with your mod was that the air entering the inlet cannot overcome the extremely high pressure air coming off the tires. But if you can route that inlet air into the center of the wheel it bypasses that high pressure area.

Planning to work on mine soon. I don't remember looking at our dust shields before (should have looked when I had the rotors off for the extended wheel bolts), but I would imagine we have them, and they block air intake to the center of the rotor to some degree. So I was planning to cut into the dust shields and mount a flange there, like Modshack's Audi pictures here: http://www.the370z.com/diy-section-d...tml#post101626.

I'm thinking I'll probably have a friend with some metal working equipment (proper cutters, a plasma cutter if necc) help with cutting the right-sized hole in the dust shield, and then just rivet a flange into there, aiming for as close to the center as possible (at least, far enough in that the air is mostly being drawn through the center of the rotor rather than dumping on the back surface of it). I'll try to get some pics when we get to this.

nada. unlike most people here, brake cooling is the least of my concern as i have tracked cars that are faster with smaller brakes. they all seem to stop fine with the one exception to the 350. for a 20 minute hpde session, i am not sure how much the ducts help. i look at it as one of those things that help, but not really big enough for me to worry about. you are better off spending money on better pads, better brake fluid and cryo treat your rotors. this is a bigger problem for guys who race their cars side by side.......