BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing
 

I realized that front brake ducting is going to require some pretty complex bits, especially because the front caliper is on the wrong side (front). I also realized that buying 2-piece rotors + ducting vs. a BBK minus about $1K for selling the Akebonos means that it's probably worth the extra money to just go with a BBK.

That leaves me a decision to make - which kit? I figure others are going through the same thing and there are multiple threads on each kit.

So this thread is a place to post real facts about each kit. Reputations are not the issue - each of these companies can make incredible brakes. What we need to compare are the specifics of the 370Z kits.

One metric is weight - what are the weights of the calipers and rotors for each kit?

Second, I would invite vendors or others to present actual data about why their brakes are good, what testing was done on this particular kit (again, generalizations about their product line are less important), etc. I think brake balance may be the most important thing - a great set of calipers and rotors that weren't actually tested and balanced with the car will increase stopping distances. For instance, I've seen the StopTech videos of testing on other cars - was that done for the 370 (or G37)?

I'll start:

Brembo, I think, still only have a front brake kit, which could actually increase overall stopping distances, although it would help with fade.

Then there's the silly stuff like colors:

Brembos: Black, Red, Yellow, Silver
StopTech: Black, Red
AP: Black, Red, Grey

Dont forget Alliance! They have the best priced kit with the most options!!!
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...oy7255/1-5.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...boy7255/01.jpg
http://www.blacklinems.com/images/alliance/photo2.jpg
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._6406019_n.jpg
http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/s...3-09217abs.jpg
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._4640045_n.jpg
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._3347345_n.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...IMG_0773-1.jpg

Here's what you're getting in total with the big brake kit:

Fully forged aluminum calipers
Anodized finish, your choice of Red, Blue, Black, and Gold
Laser engraved logo, no lame stickers
2 piece rotors with color matched hats (anodized also)
Your Choice of rotor design, slotted (as seen in the red kit pictures) or cross-drilled and slotted (as seen in the blue kit pictures).
Stainless Steel braided brake lines
Street compound pads included
Mounting brackets, hardware, and everything you need to hit the roads

Front: 8 Piston, 380mm/15" rotors
Rear: 6 Piston, 356mm/14" rotors

The 380mm rotors require 19" wheels. If you have 18" wheels, an 8 piston, 14" rotor is available to fit your setup.

Budget wise I find this kit much more reasonable than AP, Brembo, Rotora or Stoptech!

Just buy the AP Racing 6-pot f 4pot rear and call it a day. I have heard they are the best kit for the money out right now...from very reputable sources...like professional race teams, not vendors who want to sell a product.

Buying anything bigger is dumb, you limit your choice in pads and pad prices skyrocket. Don't buy hype, buy performance if its performance you want.

Yeah, it's basically between AP and StopTech. The only concern I have about the AP kit is that it was basically pieced together for this application - I haven't seen any testing on the resulting stopping distances. StopTech usually does a pretty good job on their testing before putting out a kit, although I'm not sure they did much in this case.

I also thought it might be good to have a resource thread for people to refer to in the future or on web searches. The weights, for instance, would be worth getting in one defined location. I actually thought you would care more than anyone about a factual comparison.

Bullitt - I totally appreciate the post. I'd personally shy away from that kit because I my guess is that it's more for show than anything (8 piston calipers are, from what I've read, totally unnecessary). That said, I think you're right that the information belongs on this thread.

I extremely happy with the front. Brembo gt caliper upgrade. It doesn't feel unbalanced, holds up great for 30 min sessions, and are relatively inexpensive. Brembo does make a rear kit also, I just think they aren't necessary.

Bullitt, the other kits don't use stickers either, the logos are silk screened on with paint.

You know I never even thought about the pads when considering bigger brakes, thanks for the heads up bc I was looking into the Alliance kit but just for looks bc I dont race the car.

How much more are the pads:confused:

hey Mike I think I know one of the reasons your stockers got too hot... You were running your 18's + Aggressive pads? If that was the case couldnt the smaller diameter wheel help to shield the heat into the caliper and not allow enough airflow through the pads effectively oven baking your brakes?.... I dont know just a thought I had when I had the wheels off monday night and remembering how close your calipers were to the wheel wall.

I suppose that could be part of the problem

I figured it was... cause I was doing hard braking and didnt get near as many problems but then again... brake pad combo really changes the game! Glad your liking the brembos! are you going to the Z/G meet? I think its next week...

If I don't get called out to fly, I should be there. They haven't called me in over 2 months, so hopefully I'll be ok.

I'm not sure where this information came from, but it is absolutely 100% incorrect. AP Racing brake kits are highly engineered and tested. Stillen, who has been designing and building brake upgrades for almost 20 years and originally brought Brembo to the North American aftermarket, works closely with the OE and racing engineers at AP in the UK. These kits are in use by customers all over the world from day-to-day street driving to hot lapping.

Tests aren't published for a variety of reasons. However, the real test is in the field. I would suggest asking several people with AP Racing brakes who use them in a variety of ways how they feel about their purchase. Anything can be photographed/filmed/posted on a web site for marketing purposes, but AP Racing and Stillen apparently don't spend as much money there as others might. Reputations are much more important in the long run anyway.

One-off stopping distance tests are almost irrelevant. The stock brakes can lock up the tires and cause the ABS to kick in. If you want shorter 60-0mph panic stops, buy stickier tires. However, let's take those OE brakes through some canyons or out to an HPDE and see how they hold up (yes, including those fancy looking Sport brakes). Brake system upgrades are there to increase heat capacity while decreasing weight. These goals are diametrically opposed, so you better make sure you are working with a company that has a LOT of experience in this area. This is why there is a certain solid and predictable "feel" with AP Racing brakes that is not found in other systems -- a result of decades of experience. Any company with machine tools can hog out calipers out of chunks of aluminum and smother them with glossy paint. So let the buyer beware.

AP Racing supplies brakes and engineering support to top race teams all over the world -- and gives nothing away in terms of sponsorship. They are just not geared that way. All teams pay for their product. No logos on the hood or Danica Patrick hocking the brand on Versus. These teams have many choices and can get lots of stuff for free, but choose to buy AP because winning is what they do. How does around $30k for your Sprint Cup ride sound (that's per car and doesn't include pads, lines or brake fluid!)? Don't even ask about Formula 1!

Stillen is trusted to maintain this reputation not by piecing kits together, but engineering total brake system solutions. This partnership has been in place since 1995 and is still strong today.

Please excuse the rant, but I've heard this once or twice before. It is always shocking to see misinformation spread around without support or justification, but if it isn't laid to rest someone might start believing it is true.

Chris

Im sorry but Ive heard nothing but good things about AP brakes, and more than the others too

Nah, this has nothing to do with it....I mean no offense, I know you were throwing that out there.

Also, thats a lot of Bling my friend, I just have one ugly out of focus picture to answer you with:

http://www.totalmotorsport.com/Featu...ne%20Night.jpg

:) AP Racing 6 Pots.


Chris are you really surprised there is wrong information on the internet?

Want to send me a BBK? I promise to use it a lot :) Josh wants money for it or something crazy like that... hehe

Sure, why not? The day after I get a free BBK you can put your name on the list!

Chris

Another little tidbit on AP Racing.. excluding the full racing stuff..

The partial list of OE road car manufacturers supplied by AP Racing (does not include racing clients):

Alfa Romeo
Ascari
Aston Martin
Bugatti
Caparo
Caterham
Farbio
GTA
Gumpert
Holden HSV
Koenigsegg
Lotus
Marcos
McLaren
MG
Morgan
Noble
Pagani
Rossion
Seat
Spyker
Tesla
Tramontana
TVR
Ultima
Zolfe


Top Gear’s top lap time test:

Gumpert Apollo 1.17.1 (AP Racing)
Ascari A10 1.17.3 (AP Racing)
Koenigsegg CCX (with Top Gear spoiler) 1.17.6 (AP Racing & Brembo components)
Pagani Zonda F Roadster 1.17.8 (AP Racing)
Caterham R500 1.17.9 (AP Racing)
Bugatti Veyron 1.18.3 (AP Racing)
Pagani Zonda F 1.18.4 (AP Racing)
Maserati MC12 1.18.9 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Ferrari Enzo 1.19.0 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Ariel Atom 1.19.5 (Alcon)
Lamborghini LP560 1.19.5 (Brembo)
Ferrari Scuderia 1.19.7 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Nissan GT-R (R35) 1.19.7 (Brembo)
Lamborghini LP640 1.19.8 (Brembo)
Porsche Carerra GT 1.19.8 (Brembo)
Koenigsegg CCX 1.20.4 (AP Racing & Brembo)
Ascari KZ1 1.20.7 (AP Racing)
Mercedes McLaren SLR 1.20.9 (AP Racing)
Ferrari 599GTB 1.21.2 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Ford GT 1.21.9 (Brembo)
Ferrari 360 CS 1.22.3 (Ferrari/Brembo)
Porsche GT3 RS 1.22.3 (Brembo)
Corvette Z06 1.22.4 (PBR)
Noble M15 1.22.5 (AP Racing)
Murcielago 1.23.7 (Brembo)
Zonda 1.23.8 (AP Racing)
Koenigsegg 1.23.9 (AP Racing & Brembo)
Aston Martin DBS 1.23.93 (Brembo)
Veritas RS III 1.24.2
Prodrive P2 1.24.3
Audi R8 1.24.4 (Brembo)
TVR Sagaris 1.24.6 (AP Racing)
Mitsubishi Evo FQ400 1.24.8 (Brembo)
TVR Tuscan 1.24.8 (AP Racing)
Noble M400 1.25.0 (AP Racing)
Lotus Exige S 1.25.1 (AP Racing front / Brembo & AP Racing rear)
BMW M3 Saloon 1.25.3 (Ate)
Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder 1.25.7 (Brembo)
Lamborghini Gallardo 1.25.8 (Brembo)
BMW Z4 M 1.26.0 (Ate)
Porsche Cayman 1.26.2 (Brembo)
Porsche 911 Carrera 2S 1.26.2 (Brembo)
Brabus Biturbo Roadster 1.26.2 (Brembo)
Lotus Exige 1.26.4 (AP Racing front / Brembo & AP Racing rear)
Chevrolet Corvette 1.26.8 (PBR)
Lexus IS-F 1.26.8 (Brembo)
Mercedes CLS 55 AMG 1.26.9 (Brembo or Ate, depending on year)
Aston Martin Vanquish S 1.27.1 (AP Racing)
Aston Martin DB9 1.27.1 (Brembo)
Tesla Roadster 1.27.2 (AP Racing front / Brembo & AP Racing rear)
Porsche 911 GT3 1.27.2 (Brembo)
TVR 350C 1.27.5 (AP Racing)
BMW M3 CSL 1.28.0 (Ate)
Roush Mustang 1.28.0 (StopTech or PFC)
Marcos TSO GT2 1.28.2 (AP Racing)
Subaru WRX Sti 1.28.2 (Brembo)
Mitsubishi Evo X 1.28.22 (Brembo)
Dodge Viper SRT-10 1.28.5 (Brembo)
MG SV 1.28.6 (AP Racing)
Porsche 911 Carrera S 1.28.9 (Brembo)
Mitsubishi Evo VIII 1.28.9 (Brembo)
BMW Alpina Z8 1.29.0 (Ate)
Mercedes CL65 1.29.0 (Ate)
VW Golf W12 1.29.6 (Brembo - RS4 front / Gallardo rear)
Alfa 3.7 GTA Autodelta 1.30.0 (AP Racing)
Ford Shelby GT500 1.30.0 (Brembo front / PBR rear)

LOL! Not me.. I'm in marketing.. but there is this guy around here named Steve Millen who really likes keeping the lights on..

:icon18:

Chris,

Thanks for weighing in. I'm honestly leaning toward AP for many of the reasons you outlined. As far as misinformation, I don't want to start a war, but this seems pretty well reasoned:

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

I could see bias being irrelevant if ABS is engaged at all four wheels, but it would still matter the rest of the time, during trail braking, etc.. I realize that you're used to combating people who are trying to say that braking distance, measured in feet, is the sole measure of a braking system (and it was the car mags, not the internet, that started that, BTW), but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was pushing for test data that was done with this system on this car. If you can't release it, fine. But don't get mad at me for asking.

I'm also not saying that the AP system is not calibrated as far as bias. However, when it comes to dropping $5K on a BBK system with multiple good options, it's worth paying attention to facts, not hype. You have to remember where some of us sit. You are in an industry where companies (*cough* Brembo) released downmarket products that did not live up to a once top-tier reputation. Sometimes it's worth being suspicious of the first product on the market. I don't think it's unreasonable to be as informed as possible before dropping the coin. Personally, I like knowing *why* something I buy is good as much as knowing just that it's the best, but maybe that's the geek in me...

Anyway, rants are always appreciated.

<----Patient hahaha

LOL. BTW answer my e-mail. I am clearly outraged.

You forgot

Nissan 370Z 1.27.5 (Akebono):worship:


But no disrespect to AP, those are specialized parts for discerning drivers.

Actually, AP was my first choice, but the template I downloaded from Stillen showed they wouldn't fit my wheels. The brembo kit had no template, so it was a blind guess, and I had to grind on them anyways, but I made them fit. I have nothing but the utmost respect for APR

Bias is definitely not irrelevant as ABS does not alter the laws of physics. But it is a moving target. What I mean by that is if you dial a brake system in for a completely stock vehicle at stock ride height and stock spring/dampers, you won't have achieved a 100% optimum balance for a lowered car with stiffer springs and dampers. Why? Because now the vehicle's weight doesn't shift forward as much for the same braking effort. Therefore, more braking can be done by the rear tires. Fill the gas tank and put a passenger in the car and now the numbers are different yet again!

A few years back, I was working for an Indycar manufacturer. We would spend countless hours in the wind tunnel working with aerodyanmicists to keep the center of downforce pressure from shifting forward under braking. When the nose goes down and the tail goes up, the venturi effect of the underwing/tunnels is weakened. Losing rear downforce causes premature rear wheel lockup under heavy braking at high speeds. By changing certain aspects of the tunnel design, we were able to significantly reduce this shift. That way, the driver was able to dial the brake bias rearward if the track conditions would allow it. Those cars were unbeatable under braking as was proven at many tracks that season.

The point? Proper brake system balance is a compromise between a vehicle's dynamics, estimations of how the car might be otherwise modified and by how much, available components and a list of other factors. Plus, no one should be required to change their master cylinder (race cars have two brake master cylinders that can be easily swapped for slightly larger or smaller ones, plus a balance bar the driver uses to dynamically fine tune front/rear bias while on the track as the fuel load changes). Consider all this and you may start to understand why this level of detail is not published.

I can offer this: If the brake system bias is wrong for the car and it is pushed hard, everyone the buyer knows will hear about it. The Internet makes sure of that these days. Talking directly to those who have the system on their car and are of sufficient skill level to make a reasonable evaluation will often yield better results than listening to a manufacturer's talking heads or browsing through web sites. These systems are just too expensive to put on the market and risk negative feedback. Sure, some will like one brand over another. But put a few bad kits out there and your name turns to $h!t quickly. AP Racing and Stillen just can't take that chance as they have almost 40 years and 24 years, respectively, of reputation building at stake.

If you are going to be seriously competing with your car, AP Racing makes a variety of professional racing products that are fully adjustable for any track you wish to compete on. Just be sure you bring a lot more than $5k! But for street/track day kits, that amount will get you nicely dialed in for years to come.

And, no I'm not mad. I have 3 kids, so forum discussions are no match for those professional button-pushers! I do take issue, however, when unfounded claims are made out of thin air with no supporting evidence. I have no idea what you do for a living, but if someone claimed without cause that you simply pieced your work together instead of approaching it professionally (especially if peoples' lives depend on your efforts), you might take issue as well.

Cheers,

Chris

My understanding of ABS is that it can bring each wheel to threshold (and over and back) independently, so a full four wheel ABS stop should negate bias, so long as there is enough force on the brakes to get all four wheels to the point of lockup. Am I missing something about how ABS functions?

I actually didn't realize AP was involved in the Stillen kit. My assumption was that they chose calipers and disks that roughly matched the requirements. Apologies to all for that assumption.

I wish we had a set of reliably good drivers testing all the kits, but we just don't right now - we're the guinea pigs for this car. I would generally trust Travis because I've seen from his videos that he can drive, but otherwise everyone wants to say that what they bought is great - and truthfully almost any of these kits should at least be a big improvement over the Akebonos - so it's hard to tell from hearsay at this point. In two years, the best track setups (sways, alignments, pads, etc.) will be common knowledge, but right now, I think it's worth assembling any reporting we can to start that process. That was why I started the thread.

Your point about reputation with regard for a critical component like brakes is well noted, although Brembo has put together some brake kits for OEMs that don't do their reputation any good (I'm sure it's made them money though!). AP seems to show zero sign of going that route, but that's why I have been perhaps overly reluctant to just trust a name. There are also way too many companies in the automotive business (including entire car companies) who tout their high-quality racing experience while the stuff they are selling at the consumer level is completely different and, in some cases, total crap. AP may be great, but you have to admit that we have reason to be wary.

One final note - StopTech may have a lot of marketing, but at least they have put some of that money into educating people about brakes. Sure, it serves their own ends, and they no doubt cast themselves in a good light, but those kinds of articles are better than nothing, *especially* with all the crap that get spouted on the net. I would rather see mostly factual whitepaper marketing than just the usual glamour shots (which I realize AP doesn't bother with either). It's hard to find good information, and I think it's actually helpful when a manufacturer talks about *why* they think they have the best product. If they say they are the best because they have more pistons or shinier colors, well at least you know where they stand. People who lay down facts, discuss weak points, and admit where compromises and value engineering have to take place are generally more trustworthy in general than people who just say their product has the majick sauce...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer.

I don't know anything about brakes but I'd like to buy you a beer!

here here!...
and now OT..the new Brakeman Kit for the 370 survived its first track day (Super Lap Battle Finals) and the stopping distances with respect to the other 370's was noticably shorter (its nice when you can see when/where the brake lights come on...). And a 2:00.5 at Buttonwillow with a totally stock engine bay was a FANTASTIC feeling.

That is somewhat true of stops 1, 2, and 3, but what about stops 4 and beyond? If the sizing is wrong it will cause one axle to do a higher percentage of the work leading to premature overheating, and fade. Additionally if the sizing is wrong the ABS will kick in on one axle long before it kicks in on another. This will increase the overall stopping distance required slightly.

A big brake kit's job is not to stop the car shorter. If you want to have shorter distances, take weight off the car, or increase the grip of the tire

I've owned BBK's by every worth while manufacturer out there, so I'll offer some constructive advise

1. some kits offer a variety of useful options that you are allowed to select from the get go. Such as various hat mounting methods, various disk sizes, various pad compounds.

2. serviceability - every kit at a certain point will need pads. Every kit will need rotors. Those rotors may (or may not) come with the new hardware you'll need to attach to the hats. This should all be part of your decision process. You don't want to find out that that bling blang bbk you got is impossible to find pads for. Doesn't seem like a big deal now, but it can be in 2-3 years down the road. My current cars have an AP and Endless kit on them. It's nice to know I can call any number of firms and have a plethora of pad compounds to choose from.

3. you're not going to fnd white papers on these products for a variety of reasons.

4. The top tier firms all offer similar quality kits from an engineering standpoint. ALL of them test the kits and produce them specifically for the platform. It's the lesser brands out there that take the one size fits all approach. Stoptech focuses their marketing on this point and it's a very valid point - we're big Stoptech fans here. That being said, several other firms take that same approach to the development side of things as well

This is one of the best posts that I have read on this topic and I really appreciate seeing this type of objective reasoning. I am curious though, why you have been soo quick to discredit the Brembo product from your first post, where it did seem that it was originally an option for you?

Rather than simply sharing my personal opinion about the Brembo product, maybe I can answer specific questions based on your actual concerns. I know that Brembo has the largest name in the braking business, and with that comes a varying degree of opinions, but when it comes to the aftermarket/racing products it is definitely one of (if not THE) top choice out there.

Please, share some questions that you think would be helpful to your search, and may also help other people in a similar situation. I'll do my best to share only relevant, factual, and useful information.

Gary - - - -

This may be a bit long but...

We have a lot of experience with nearly every aftermarket brand, and Brembo is at the top of our list by far..
Our/My opinion is based, but not exclusively, on customer satisfaction, which is key for us.
Everyone wants to save a dime here, a dollar there, but in terms of quality and longevity Brembo saves more than that over time.:tup:

The ONLY negative you ever hear about Brembo is in relation to some of their OEM products, and most of the time that is due to a driver who is inexperienced about vehicle setup and not fully aware that there is a limitation to anything OEM. The aftermarket products and BBK's are on another level all together and more similar to the tip tier race systems that you see being used in EVERY top level racing series in the world

We've been one of Brembo's top dealers for many years now and we don't only sell Brembo.
Our experience allows us to select the right product for the right customer, and set it up for the right driving conditions and set the proper expectations for the customer.:tiphat:

If you need any more info regarding the Brembo options for the 370Z fee free to contact us directly.
Besides the full Big Brake Kits, which they DO offer a rear application, you may want to check out their Caliper Upgrade system.
The 6-piston Monoblock calipers Brembo is using for the 370Z applications is the trickiest thing available right now from anybody.
And price wise, they are not that far off from the lesser quality 2pc. 6-piston calipers from other manufacturers.

Just my 2 cents (More like 5 cents since its so long;))

In regards to braking bias and the development we put into our kits I would like bring up a perfect example of the engineering that STILLEN/AP Racing put into the brake systems that we co-develop.

The Ford GT supercar comes from the factory with a Brembo brake system that for 95% of the owner's of that car will more than meet their needs. However, for the other 5% of the owner's of the car they need something better. In the early days of the GT one of the larger brake companies (who will remain unnamed) designed a front and rear big brake kit that in all honesty...was a pile of garbage. It was actually recommended that the kit be removed from the cars because the braking bias was so horribly thrown off. There were numerous cars equipped with this brake kit who would come into a corner and because of the horrible bias issues would spin off the race track.

In 2006 STILLEN produced a front brake kit for the GT that was slightly larger than stock and offered a 6 piston caliper, replacing the factory 4 piston. Then in 2008 (after MUCH testing and engineering) we released the rear brake kit to complete the package. The rear rotor was significantly larger and came with a 6 piston caliper. Because we had some concerns about the potential for altering the brake bias we played with quite a few things including piston sizes inside the caliper, types of rotors, and more. Working very closely with AP Racing and taking from the years and years of Sports car racing, championship winning experience of Steve Millen, we now have a brake system which is used by all of the serious Ford GT track guys. The final outcome was kind of odd. We found that for racing purposes, the best setup was to go with cross-drilled slotted front rotors and slotted only rear rotors, thus decreasing some of the initial bite of the rear rotors and therefore offsetting the bias issues. For the street, we recommend cross-drilled slotted fronts and matching cross-drilled slotted rears just for aesthetics.

Also, before releasing this brake kit for public use, Steve Millen and myself put it to the ultimate test on the 2008 Targa New Zealand Rally. We were not willing to sell this kit to anyone without testing it thoroughly for ourselves.

You can rest assured that we test and test and test all of our brake kits and all of our other products before they are released to the public.

ABS does essentially function that way, but it cannot override physics. A modern 4-channel ABS computer can REDUCE brake line pressure for any corner that is starting to lock up. It does not INCREASE pressure for the corners that still have unused grip to offer. So, yes, it offers stability (which is safer), but doesn't necessarily shorten stopping distances. A properly balanced brake system (both mechanically and thermally) is required, with ABS being an added bonus for those drivers who would benefit from it.

Actually, guys like Steve Millen are the guinea pigs. Reputable companies do their own testing and evaluation before the customer ever hears of a newly released product -- that is, if they plan on staying around for a while. That doesn't make any company perfect or void of errors, but it would be ridiculous for companies that have been around as long as Stillen, AP Racing, etc., to risk their reputation on anything less. As far as the Nissan/Infiniti platform are concerned, no one has more experience with these cars than Stillen/AP Racing -- period.

Last week at SEMA, I walked past maybe 15 or more new brake system offerings from Asia/India/Viet Nam/wherever. None of them had the history or reputation that made me even want to stop and ask a few questions. I've seen such systems with other logos (almost anyone can have private-label brakes made these days) fail miserably at the track or in a canyon. I know of quite a few cars that have been totaled as a result. Let the buyer beware.

The boys and girls over at S-T have done a solid job in marketing their product and educating their customer -- and kudos to them for it. The bigger companies could do a better job than has been done, that's for sure! I have several ideas that I hope to get time to put in place over the winter. However, a "white paper" doesn't help me much when approaching Turn 2 at Laguna Seca a bit too hot... :eek:

Take a good look at the customer list that Josh posted up. Those guys have the budget and engineering resources to make any brake supplier shake in their boots. Each and every application is treated like a make-or-break deal for the company. Also take a look at the new Arash AF-10 that was just announced: Arash plans Veyron beater - Autocar.co.uk OK, it's a long way from a Nissan 370Z, but look at what the makers of this $535,000, 250+mph supercar turned to for brakes. Their customers are not guinea pigs.

Chris

I agree with Chris wholeheartedly on this statement.

It's a topic that comes up in every single product meeting that we have in my company. We get glimpses and pulses into what Brembo is doing conceptually, through R&D, and in testing, every day that is still amazing to all of us (who are able to geek out on these products every day), and we wish that we could just share a fraction of this with the rest of the world.

I know it sounds sounds a bit cliche, but Big companies like AP, and Brembo are "doers" not "talkers". Call it ego if you will, but they really do believe that the results should peak for themselves, and no matter what the other companies will tell you, it's these OEM relationships, combined with years of history dominating all facets of top level racing, that directly influence the products that you guys will be buying for your own cars.

This is another statement that I hope people take a full face value.

Brembo is the largest OEM supplier of High Performance braking products in the world. Because of their reputation in top level racing, people have very high expectations for all of their products, which I believe people should. The problem is that many people have these expectations without the necessary knowledge to understand exactly what they have or how to dial it in correctly.

OEM developed product, Brembo or not, still has to meet a criteria set forth by the auto maker. And unless they are Porsche, setting the criteria for brakes on the next GT3, you are not getting directionally veined 2pc discs, monobloc calipers, and Pagid pads. Many times Brembo is the choice for performance and quality, but budget restraints dictate the final product more so than the original desire to use their products. These cars end up in many different driveways all over the world, different drivers, different driving styles, different road conditions and climates.

An OEM system must operate in a comfortable manner in every situation, and this does compromise peak performance for enthusiasts like you and I. People know that you can enhance a system with better fluid, braided lines, and better pads. But even with this knowledge some people are going too aggressive with pad which can have adverse affects on performance again. There is a proper way to dial in an OEM system, but your expectations still have to be in line with the capabilities of the product.

The benefit to the aftermarket Brembo products...all of the R&D, testing and knowledge from OE development is readily available before the vehicle is even available for sale. The aftermarket products do not need to follow the same criteria to suit the needs of every driver and they are developed specifically for high performance and track use. Budget restraints do not limit the level of product that ends up in the final system and you do end up with components that come directly from top level racing, or that are developed to rival those performance capabilities.

IE:
- The discs used in aftermarket Brembo brake systems are the same that are used every weekend in every top level race series around the globe. The 14" disc used in the 370Z brake kit is the identical part # used on an ALMS race car, or Grand AM GT car.
- The calipers are developed specifically for the High Performance aftermarket but draw from design and manufacturing traits of top level monobloc race calipers. The purpose here is to provide race like performance, weight savings, and stiffness, but in a package that can also be driven for the life of the vehicle without he additional maintenance of rebuilding.
- The rotor hardware has developed for the McLaren F1 as a way to provide full floating performance without the excessive noise of rotor chatter, and is still used in all of our aftermarket 2pc. discs.

No gimmicks, technical white papers, or exciting marketing tactics here...just well developed products by one of the most capable companies in the industry, with real world results.

Gary,
I'm running the front upgrade setup on mine with the stock rear sport brakes. Currently using the FM1000 pads on the GT calipers and DS2500s on the rears. They perform flawlessly at the track, but the initial bite is kind of low, and they wear out really quick. Do you think I should switch to DS3000s next time?

I must say though, I do love the current pads as they don't dust and don't make noise, which does make for a good street combo.

The FM1000 is primarily an aggressive street pad. It is actually hands down my favorite pads for daily driving, high speed highway driving, and the occasional canyon/mountain run. With that said, I am beyond the level where I am able to use that pad at the track.

At the track I also want a higher initial torque (bite), and I require a pad with a higher MOT (maximum operating temperature). The pads are wearing quickly for you when you are running at peak temperatures. They still provide decent friction levels at the elevated temperatures, but it does become more unstable and can wear quickly.

The rapid wear is without a doubt a sign that you are "running in the red" temperature wise fr a fair amount of time. Our 6-piston monobloc caliper has the largest surface area and volume of any aftermarket brake kit for the 370Z. It's not uncommon to see 40,000 street miles out of one set of pads, even with an aggressive driver. Equally, it's not uncommon to hear of someone wearing through an entire set of pads in 3-5 track events if they are running at or near MOT with a pad that is not specifically intended for track use.
(Believe it or not, this is still a fair amount of use compared to the results from other 370Z brake options, and it only gets better when you do find the ideal compound to suite your intended use.)
As I started to mention in a previous post, it does require finding a balance between the designated purpose of the pad and your intended driving style. The brake system itself is providing the performance values that you need for any type of driving situation, while the pad is a consumable item that will show compromise in certain scenarios.

- Are you running drilled or slotted discs?
- Are you encountering any fade during your track use?
- How many street miles would you say you have on that set of pads vs. how many track miles/days/or/timed sessions?
- Are you intent on trying to find an all purpose pad for street and track, or would you be comfortable usuing designated pads for street and track?

The jump to a DS3000 will offer you a pad with higher MOT and more stability for track use. The coefficient of friction is higher, as is the initial torque. That being said, pads are very subjective and do require a bit of trial and error to find the combination that works best for you. The DS3000 is a good step up from where you are now, but it's hard to guarantee exact results without more detailed information. On the positive side, this could still be used as a dual purpose pad for you. If this doesn't hit the mark you are looking for, you may need to consider running a separate street pad and track pad to achieve optimum results.

I have 5 track days and probably less than 100 street miles on the pads and they are about 80% worn.
3 days @ Carolina Motorsports Park and 2 @ Road Atlanta

I have been running slotted rotors, but am switching back to the stock ones next weekend, as the slotteds are starting to have a lot of stress cracks.

No fade at all with them however

And lastly, I don't mind swapping back and forth, or even driving on noisy track pads on the street, as I drive this car very little other than at track days and the occassional Z meets.

It's actually starting to sound like you may have one of my caliper upgrades rather than a full BBK? I should have asked that earlier. Is that correct? If so, whose brand of disc are you using? Can you post up a current photo of the disc.

The caliper upgrade is great for improving pedal feel and modulation. The larger pad shape improves pad and rotor life, reduces overall temperatures in the pad, transfer to the caliper, and into the fluid, but you are still somewhat limited with the heat capacity of the OEM designed disc.

5 track days with FM1000's is not bad at all, now that I know you still have an OEM (or OEM style) 1pc. disc. That's a pretty significant improvement with FM1000's, and you should potentially get a bit more life out of the DS3000's. If I had to guess, comparatively speaking, you were probably getting 1, or maybe 2, days out of the pads when you had OEM calipers? As long as you are not running a cheap aftermarket Chinese disc, I think you should be fine to take that next step.

yes, it is the caliper upgrade kit. I have of course, powdercoated them different from their original scheme, but thats because its how I promote my powdercoating biz at the track. I am running Rotora rotors at the moment, but going back to OEM before the next event. The cracks are hard to see in the pic, but they are fairly small stress cracks, however, when the rotor rusts up, they look a lot worse.

Thanks all for the posts. I'm an information junkie, so the more I have, the better I feel about what I end up getting.

To answer your questions, Gary, on my view of Brembo:

1. I'm a bit worried about only a front caliper change. On one hand, my concern is that the stock rear caliper/rotor combination has proven not to be up to our needs. On the other hand, I'd obviously be glad to save the money, and I do realize that the addition of the bigger front brake *should* reduce the load on the rears. I'm not sure where to end up in this whole mix.

2. The OEM brake business definitely devalued the brand in my eyes. It was no doubt a good business decision, and I hear your point that the OEM side made no difference to the aftermarket BBKs, but putting out less-than-stellar OEM brakes definitely tarnished Brembo's image. Maybe that's irrelevant, but it's what prompted my comments. In a world where we are being asked to rely on reputations, things like that matter.

- -

Basically everyone is asking us to trust them. That's fine, but it's different than most industries, where I can really research the products I want to buy. I'm not used to it.

One metric I referred to before that I would like to consider is weight. It obviously cannot be looked at in a vacuum, but it is a relevant data point, as we all realize the benefit of unsprung weight reduction. If each of the main BBKs are probably going to be fade-free for 30 minute sessions, lighter is better. I don't know if anyone has data on caliper/rotor weight for each of the BBKs, but it would be nice to have. Yes, I realize that there are tradeoffs with weight - lighter weight means lower thermal mass, potentially smaller rotors, etc.. My guess is that the AP system wins there.

- -

In general, I admit I was pretty naive when I got the car. I figured the OEM brakes, with their 14" rotors and fixed calipers, would be able to handle moderate track use with a rotor and pad upgrade. Now I'm looking at spending $5K on a system I didn't really want in the first place, so I'm being as anal as possible in an attempt to learn. I now realize most any car will need a BBK for track use, but I guess I just thought that was only true for racing. Right now, I'm having to tiptoe around the brake limits pretty carefully or switch to pads for track days* which is a drag, as I will probably still have problems. If I can get away with a new front caliper, then that's great, but what happens when I get a bit faster and now have to go through all this again...

Anyway, thanks again for all the thoughts. I hope there are forum lurkers that this conversation has also helped in one way or another...

*Yes, I realize that track use may mean switching pads. My goal was to have a car I could drive to the track, run, and drive home without swapping parts or alignment. I'm willing to make compromises like:

- Living with an alignment that causes higher tire wear on the street. I figure the tires are going to get worn out on track anyway. I'll live with the cost of getting tires every 3-6 months to avoid tinkering at the track.
- Using street tires on track. I figure I'm not good enough to need track tires at this point anyway, and swapping wheels just isn't in my goal right now.

I am hoping I can get a brake system where I can drive at 9/10ths with streetable (not street, but not pure race) pads. I'm still in the beginner group, so I have a feeling I'm not fast enough for that to be an issue with a BBK. Feel free to weigh in on whether or not I'm delusional...

Yes, I hear this a lot. Unfortunately, the engineers don't win all the battles. Sometimes the accountants (most of the time, actually) get the last word. You should talk to someone with a Corvette C6 Z06 and see what they think of spending around $70k and getting worse brakes than you have! GM had a better option on the table, but the budget simply didn't allow for it. Some have noticed that the ZR-1 uses entirely different brakes. By the way, this is the #1 reason I have never wanted to work for an OEM road car manufacturer. That and the fact that Michigan has very cold winters and all the tracks close down until spring.

This is exactly what the AP Racing road car brake systems were designed and developed to do. It is also why the pads chosen are good to over 1300°F. If you are one of the few pushing past that temp limit, the only options left are full-on race pads. Of course with an AP BBK, you will have lots of options to choose from.

Chris

This is the most informative thread on brakes i have seen in a while :-) This is the sunny side of forums i love!