Exactly - I am stunned that the Z06 brakes have issues on track. I realize that's partly a result of all that horsepower, but still, I would indeed be pissed if I had to retrofit brakes for a car that was sold as a track monster.

I do feel like part of the issue is all the weight on cars. I was thinking the other day about how the only ~2800 lb sports car left is the Cayman/Boxster, then the Miata and the Exige below 2500. In combination with the horsepower wars of the last 10 years, we've got way more energy to manage than before. It sounds like the next-gen RX7 and Miata will continue the light approach, which is good, because to my mind, 3300 lbs. is just too much for a sports car. Mazda also seems to give decent priority to trackworthiness because they understand their customers; it will be interesting to see where they make the price/performance stopper decision. Mazda does have the odd advantage of low horsepower... :rolleyes:

It's good to hear that you feel AP's kit is suited to a dual use scenario on the Z. I was worried that the response would just be, "If you want to track your car with any kind of seriousness, you have to get used to switching pads." The whole payoff for me of a BBK is not having to worry about the brakes any more, other than keeping pads and rotors current. I don't mind putting up with a small amount of noise and any amount of dust; I just don't want to have to bring jacks to the track (yet). Eventually all the track regulars seem to drop down the rabbit hole, which leads ultimately to a trailered car, but I'm trying to stay out of that one as long as possible ;-)

I hope you're ready for a mini-novel on braking... :twocents:

For the caliper upgrade we do only offer the front option.
For the complete big brake systems, we offer front only /or/ front+rear.

The bias is optimized on each of the options by selecting the appropriate piston combination within the caliper. So hopefully knowing that the bias is not negatively affected in any way, you can focus on what is in fact changing and make your selection accordingly. I offer brakes as a solution to an existing problem, or as a preventative step to avoiding future issues. Without knowing the issues you are currently having, or your intent with the vehicle (to avoid potential issues) it's hard for me to tell you where you should end up either.

The caliper upgrade was developed as an intermediate step for aggressive street use and light track duty. The big changes will be in the modulation and control you have over the braking, as well as the longevity of the pads and rotors. You get a much higher quality caliper,... lighter/stiffer, superior design and manufacturing. The calipers improved pedal feel modulation is a direct result of those traits. The pad shape offers improved surface area and volume by almost 40%. The pad also acts as a heat sink, so the larger volume helps to reduce overall temps. The additional life span of the pads and friendliness on the rotor is a positive bi-product of the design.

You do accomplish a whole lot, with very little.
Remember, it's just a caliper, combined with an amazing pad, and a braided line to also assist in pedal feel. We are not increasing the size of the disc, so it's generally not recommended for aggressive track duties, or for drivers already experiencing significant fade related issues. It's designed to make better use of the OEM sized disc.

For the full brake systems, front only /or/ front and rear, we are focusing on the brakes as an entire system and can therefore improve all of the other aspects of braking performance that the OEM system cannot handle. We do increase the diameter of the discs which is the "heart and soul" of temperature management. The larger discs have the ability to absorb and distribute the peak operating temperatures, while at the same time doing a much better job at dissipating this heat and keeping the system operating consistently at MUCH lower temperatures.

The disc is a 2pc. fully floating assembly that provide even pad and rotor wear, reduce the potential for knockback, and seek a true center line for improved modulation and initial bite. Brembo's discs come directly from top level racing and are widely recognized as the best performing, longest lasting, available. Combine that with the impressive traits of our 6-piston monobloc caliper (already discussed above), and you have a system that is virtually bulletproof, and requires the least maintenance and costly consumable items of any other aftermarket brand.

The full systems, front only /or/ front and rear, are developed to prevent any potential brake related issues. The only thing you as a driver need to be concerned with, is finding a pad compound that suits your needs and personal preference. That's it. Our development has taken care of every other aspect.

In my previous post I made it a point to mention that peoples expectations are a large part of their opinion towards the OEM brake systems. Hands down, the OEM Brembo systems perform above and beyond the capabilities of non-Brembo equipped models. You also need to remember that those of us who are tracking our production vehicles on a regular basis only make up a very small percentage of the total # of vehicles sold. I personally wish that there was a better way to differentiate the capabilities, and potential limitations, of the OEM products vs. those developed for the High Performance division so that peoples expectations would be in line. Unfortunately it's a difficult balance because the capabilities exceed the vast majority of the users expectations, and both Brembo and their OEM partners are more than satisfied with these results. The closest thing to a "one product satisfies all" system is what we offer in the High Performance division, and that level of product even prices itself of of potential for even the $ 6-figure $ vehicles like Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc...

I think it's really still the same as any other industry, you just have to dig a little deeper to get directly to the source. I generally offer what I feel should be a common sense approach to researching any product, which is to go directly to the source and only listen to what each company has to say about themselves and their own products/capabilities. If one company is talking more about other companies and trying to discredit would be competitors, this should show you that they don't have enough going for themselves to work with.

For Brembo it's a bit difficult because they are a Billion dollar company with multiple divisions. What is the difference between OEM, Racing, and High Performance, and how does one influence the other and vise-versa? Being such a large company you would think their marketing would be on point and information would be readily available at the click of a button. Unfortunately it's not and that has left room for other people to step up and try to position themselves as an authority on the topic.

Brembo is the World Leader in Braking Technology, and is responsible for developing the aftermarket braking industry over the last 10 years. Their High Performance division is the most advanced and most capable on every level. From proprietary software that aids in the selection of components for targeting the optimum brake bias for a given application, to R&D , engineering, and testing procedures that ensure top level performance, their results alone should speak volumes. Brembo's High Performance division is a result of taking the best from OEM and Racing to create a product that exceeds drivers expectations and offers genuine value dollar for dollar.

Too many aftermarket brands function with the mind set that aftermarket products should have a certain "forgiveness" or "compromise" based on what they feel they deliver. Aftermarket products rarely have set standards to which they need to be judged, and creative marketing covers their flaws by turning them into "innovations". Being behind the curtain, I have to laugh sometimes at what is marketing to the public vs. what you are actually receiving. It's not my place to point out other companies flaws, and overtime the truth will expose itself, but I will say that Brembo's customer satisfaction is the best in the industry that I know of.

We stand behind the products 100%, while at the same time we rarely have a reason to do so. Every component in our aftermarket systems go through the same rigorous homoligation process that is mandatory for OE development by every major auto maker, and many of the top level race series. I also don't know of any other aftermarket brands that are subjected to such rigorous testing, in lab and on road, before they are even introduced to the public and eligible for sale.

What I will say about some of the other companies out there, in an effort to support the ones who deserve more respect, is that there are very few companies supplying complete brake systems that are actually manufactures for the products they sell. There's only so much you can do in terms of product development, testing, quality control, even assembly and packaging, when you are not the manufacturer. Brembo owns every step of their process from the mining of the raw materials that make up their cast iron and aluminum, to the final assembly and packaging of the products for delivery to the end user. There's not need for smoke and mirrors or creative marketing when you have total control of the entire process.

Weight savings is significant with all of our products. I don't have the OEM weights of the 370Z components, but I can provide the weights for each of my components for reference. I don't think Chris would have any problem sharing the AP weights as well. It is a factor that should be relevant, but at the same time form follows function, and unfortunately weight is a factor that's a product of both form and function.

Yes there is a tradeoff,... for example in the friction materials, where my pad shape is significantly larger than OEM (and most other aftermarket options) for functional reasons. Where the pad itself is may be heavier, my caliper will be lighter while being stiffer and more responsive. Our 2pc. rotors are without a doubt lighter than the OEM 1pc. discs, and again offer a functional advantage without the compromise of more weight.

6-piston monobloc caliper =
7.7lbs (w/o pads)
10.8lbs. (with pads)

380mm disc =
17.05lbs. (without hat/bell and hardware)
19.78lbs. (total assembly)

355mm disc = (Brand NEW 370Z option just released during SEMA)
15.43lbs. (without hat/bell and hardware)
17.60lbs. (total assembly)


Questions to ask:

Does the caliper weight include pads?
Some companies intentionally offer weights with or without pads on purpose.

If the weight does include the pads, what is the size, shape and thickness of the pads?
I have seen narrow body, billet calipers that are extremely light, offer impressive caliper clearance, but only come with 10mm thick pads. Yes, the weight is an advantage, but the pad has very little volume for longevity, or to act as a heat barrier for the caliper/fluid.

Does the rotor include the weight of the hat/bell, and mounting hardware?
Brembo uses a very functional hardware that allows for float while remaining noise free. We are still generally lighter than rotor assemblies that are not full floating and simply bolt together.

Side note: All 2pc. rotors are not created equal. Brembo is one of the only companies that provides a 2pc floating rotor that allows for proper radial and axial expansion. Another good hardware is the AP "Strap Drive" system, but not all of the AP kits that are available utilize this setup. Other companies claim to be full floating, but close inspection of their hardware makes it obvious it is not as functional, and their hats/bells become consumable due to the excessive wear. I am only making mention to these variances because weight is one aspect that has MANY contributing factors. It's equally important to find out where the weight is and what it provides in terms of function, longevity and safety.



- -

Different strokes for different folks.
That's why we tend to offer more than one option for the same vehicle.
I do know drivers who have been able to make good use of the OEM brakes based on their driving style and finesse. I know fast/advanced drivers who are brake friendly, and I've seen beginners murder brake systems. Equally, I've seen slow beginner driver who never get enough heat into the system, and fast drivers who heat soak and entire system in 3 laps. I don't make any recommendations until I have sufficient information before hand. I never say BEST, unless it is strictly relevant to the component itself, or the "best" for your personal situation.

The OEM system has decent heat capacity, but very little cooling. When the brakes get hot, they tend to stay hot. The pad shape/size and rotor design are the root of the problem, but there are a few intermediate steps you can take to better the peak performance. You didn't mention improving fluid. You didn't mention braided lines. Both of these options improve fade and pedal feel.

Was your fade mechanical or fluid?
- Mechanical is when the pedal stays hard/firm but you lose friction.
- Fluid fade is when the pedal goes soft and you lose firmness.
You can have both at the same time as well.

Believe it or not, many of the aftermarket rotor options that appear to be upgrades because they are nicely boxed, drilled and/or slotted, with attractive plating and prices, are still the same design but sometimes with a lesser quality/effective metallurgy. A disc of equal size and shape will do nothing for performance unless it is a superior metallurgy and/or an improved vein design (that is actually functional) to improve cooling.

Also, many of the "upgraded" or performance pads that are available actually make the problem worse. If you are exceeding MOT of the OEM pad and inducing mechanical fade, you will need a pad with a higher MOT. At the same time you must pay attention to heat management. Going to a more aggressive pad with a higher operating temperature may help prevent pad fade, but without finding a way to reduce temperatures elsewhere will lead to more problems.

9 times out of 10 the OEM disc that comes on a vehicle is going to be the better quality than aftermarket options. This is due to the fact that OEM products must be homoligated, and meet the QC levels of the automaker. With brakes, there is truth in "you get what you pay for". It may sound cliche, but you can't fake quality when it comes to brake components.
***That's not to say that some dealer products aren't overpriced and you can find equal quality, or even the identical item, elsewhere for less...but when in doubt, throw that option out.***

My approach when you don't want to upgrade to a full system is...
Fluid first, then braided lines, then a properly selected pad upgrade.
If you are still experiencing fade,... recognize the source of the fade and start your plan of attack. Maybe some ducting to get more airflow to the components. Maybe the caliper upgrade with more pad surface area/volume, which comes with the braided line and an amazing pad compound already selected for high performance driving. Maybe you are aware that you have reached the limit of that particular systems design flaws and you step up to a Brembo GT system. In any case you need to have a source to go to for the proper advice along the way.

You are not delusional at all and I think you are setting your expectations at a more than reasonable level. Your requests are very common and I think what the majority of track day enthusiasts are trying to accomplish. For brakes I don't believe that you have to take the "tradeoff" or deal with compromise. There are dual purpose pads that work well for even advanced/fast drivers who are at the track even more than they are on the street. The Brembo system, by design, is a no compromise solution to performance braking, PERIOD.

You can drive our system across the country with 3 friends and a trunk full of Redbull, just as easily as you can do a dozen track events a year, or compete in a club level race series. With any of the Brembo options, the only thing you will ever have to worry about is finding a pad you like. Replace pads and rotors as they wear, and think of NOTHING else. No rebuilding calipers, no inspecting rotor hats for wear, no safety wire, no seized bolts, no 3rd party QC issues, no "caliper from one company, rotor from another", no cheap pad to keep the initial cost down, no gimmick marketing that doesn't equate to an actual performance benefit, no over promising and underdelivering!

I can point out every single reason that the Brembo system costs what it does, and I can identify every reason why each component was selected and what it offers to the system. If there is a less expensive option, I guarantee I can point out where the cost cutting is taking place so you can make a proper judgment call. Just becuase it's cheaper doen't mean it is not good, and just becuase it is expensive does not mean it is any better.

Brembo was the first company to offer complete aftermarket brake upgrades that were not developed by a third part. They set the standard to which all the others compare themselves, price wise and performance wise. There are other great options out there, and I'm in no way saying that Brembo is the only solution. I just wanted to offer why I think Brembo should be back on your list and I hoped I could offer some insight on why I feel they are a top choice. Thanks for letting me do that.

Tell me about it!

Brembo spent a lot of money on proposed development for the C6 ZO6 only to have it left behind in favor for a more price conscious system to meet the budget set for the final price point of that vehicle. The good news is that this development is what has allowed us to be first to market with more than 6 different brake options for the ZO6.

We were though, able to nail the contract for the ZR1 with out CCM technology.

Chris,
Do you know if AP tried to go after that OEM account as well?

Gary - I'm seriously impressed with the response (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!). Thanks for taking the time to write all that down. And you're the first one who actually put down full weights, which should be definitely worth a rep point.

I have to say, you got me looking up the full kit online, as I didn't realize there was one available. I also have to admit, at $7K: ouch. I do think larger rotors/pads will make for longer life, which saves money and time in the long run; I need to decide whether or not I can afford that.

As far as fade - the differentiation between pad and fluid makes sense. I definitely got fluid fade (with AP Ultra) - I think that's because the HP+ pads just heat the crap out of the stock rotors and calipers. And my general style is not even to beat on the brakes - I figure that unless I'm timing laps, late braking is just not the best way to get speed. In other words, I was being pretty gentle on Sears Point, although my instructor was pushing me to brake a bit deeper into turn seven (for those that know it). Anyway, my reward for being gentle was a soft pedal at the end of a 30 minute session on Sunday of a two-day weekend. I managed to baby the car through the end of the day, and I've got two more track sessions this year where I just plan to take it easy (with new fluid and pads, obviously), but generally I'm getting sick of stressing about it...

Anyway, thanks again. The fact that you guys have weighed in so seriously on this is much appreciated. When my next bonus buys me my BBK, I'll be that much more impressed with it knowing there are people behind them who really care about building the right products.

I totally understand what you mean. I never experienced any type of fade with my 350z and its oem brembos or my C6 with its above mentioned factory Z06 PBR calipers, but I got total fluid fade in 20 minutes the first time out with the 370.


I should have a set of sport calipers coming in for powdercoating today, so when they get here, I will weigh them and post.

Gary,
That new 355 mm rotor, will it work with my GT calipers? Also, do you have a rear one that will work with the stock caliper?

Also, part numbers for them please!

Mike,

Good news!

Yes, you can buy my 2pc. fully floating rotor assemblies and end up with what would be a COMPLETE Brembo Gran Turismo system.

I worked with engineering specifically to make this possible so that people have the option to start with the caliper upgrade,...and as they progress they can upgrade their system along the way.

More good news for other people unsure of where to start at;

You can start with the FRONT caliper upgrade...

...down the road, add the 2pc. rotors to complete the FULL GT Front system...

...and again down the road, add the REAR Brembo GT system.

Bias remains appropriate the entire way, and you can realize what each stage of these upgrades offers in terms of performance along the way. I am definitely a mod geek when it comes to my cars and I love the idea of doing things in stages and learning what exactly does what along the way.

As far as I can tell, AP Racing spends about zero effort in going after OE accounts from Detroit, although the marketing people at that level don't drop many hints. They do supply GM's Holden HSV programs in Australia, but AP are not really geared for high volume production. It's all been the specialty stuff like the newest cars from Arash, McLaren, Gumpert, Rossion, Lotus, Tramontana, GTA, Caparo, Plethore, etc. These are all low-volume, extreme supercars, not production vehicles like the 'Vette.

+1 Gary This Thread Needs to be Thumbnailed!

Me neither. But over the 20 years I've been in this industry I've learned that reputations mean something. They are hard earned and quickly lost. I have also come to understand that I'm buying an experience, not a product. It's a bit like the guy who goes into a home improvement store to buy a drill. He really wants holes, not the drill!

Just because I may reason that one product is slightly better than another, the service after the sale can trump small differences in product offering. All it takes is some bad experiences with a company to undo any perceived product advantage.

AP5700 (Front 6-piston kit with 362x32mm 2-piece disc) --

Caliper weight, unloaded: 7.3 lb. / 3.31 kg
Caliper weight, loaded w/pads: 10.4 lb / 4.72 kg
Pad area: 72.50 cm^2
Pad thickness: 16.8mm
Rotor weight, assembled: 20.3 lb. / 9.21 kg

Notes: This kit was developed to fit many 18" wheels for those who wish to have a larger selection of track tire compounds. The matching rear kit is strongly recommended for optimum mechanical and thermal brake bias.


AP3750 (Rear 4-piston kit with 330x25.4mm 2-piece disc) --

Caliper weight, unloaded: 4.7 lb. / 2.13 kg
Caliper weight, loaded w/pads: 6.7 lb. / 3.04 kg
Pad area: 48.62 cm^2
Pad thickness: 16.0mm
Rotor weight, assembled: 22.8 lb. / 10.3 kg (iron hat for long-life parking brake function)

Approval and backing by the legendary, record-breaking driver Steve Millen: Included in all AP Racing BBKs at no extra charge!

A note about bolted vs. floating kits. In our experience in designing and building aftermarket upgrade brake systems since 1990, bolted disc assemblies should be used wherever possible. The maintenance-free nature of this type of assembly clearly trumps any advantage of a floating assembly for most users. Only when the thermal capacity of the system is being tested regularly should a floating system be considered.

One drawback of floating systems on street vehicles is lack of proper maintenance. Race teams have a crew of mechanics that perform regular maintenance schedules, which includes an intense amount of brake servicing. For the street, we all just like to bolt them on and forget them. Floating disc assemblies, while definitely having distinct thermal expansion advantages in the upper temperature ranges, tend to collect brake dust, road grime, salt, etc., in between the bobbins and the hat. If cleaned out regularly, this poses few problems. However, most owners aren't up for the extra maintenance (or, more likely, aren't told about it by whoever sold them the kit). But if left to build up, this debris can actually start to prevent the disc from floating -- only now its location is not controlled.

Example: We have seen drivers who have stated their system performs normally when warm, but there is a pronounced steering wheel judder when left overnight. After driving for a bit, thermal expansion of the warmer rotors allowed the parts to become free again. Once hot, parking the vehicle leaves the iron disc just slightly out of plane with respect to the aluminum hat. During cool down, the disc "sticks" in this position due to debris and dust. Once warm again, the disc frees up and all is back to normal.

I am NOT saying this happens all the time with all floating kits! But I am saying it is an issue (like potential rattling sounds) that is entirely prevented when staying with a bolted disc assembly. Talk to anyone with an R35 GT-R who goes over speed bumps or into driveways and hears his car sound like someone bumped into a dishwasher full of large plates. The large discs on that car overpower the float springs and leave drivers sure they have suspension components loosening up!

My rule of thumb: Only go to a floating assembly when it is proven necessary. Several AP Racing systems are sold in a floating arrangement for such applications -- the G's and Z's haven't been two of them. We have done full-floating, dedicated track kits in the past and can continue to do so if the demand is there, but these are not really something most people want to live with on the street. You guys with dedicated track cars -- get in touch with us and we'll work something out. It's a little pricier, but you'll be glad you did.

A better solution? AP Racing's Strap Drive system is the best of both worlds. The disc and hat are free to expand as needed and move slightly relative to each other -- and there are no moving parts to rattle or trap debris. This system is limited in availability at the moment, but could find its way into more kits in 2010. If anyone is interested, that is...

Chris

For reference the OEM front rotor is 29 pounds. I haven't weighed the rear, but I'm sure it is similar given only a slightly smaller diameter and have a larger hat.

I'm also interested in what Mike weights the stock calipers in at, when I had them unbolted they felt pretty hefty but I never got to weight them.

All I know is that these Akebono calipers are some of the worse OEM calipers on this class of car I've seen in a long time. They definitely went for the 95th percentile on this one.

Here's a good example of a difference in opinion, most likely created by each companies various experiences over time, which ultimately lead to different solutions for their own products.

All of Brembo's 2pc. discs are full floating, specifically for the benefits they offer to performance, longevity, and safety...both on street and at the track.

Brembo uses a very unique float hardware that they developed and patented which specifically addresses many of the issues that Chris mentioned above. Despite the fact that the topics Chris mentioned above can be true in one form or another, it was a conscious decision by Brembo to develop a product expressly for the additional benefits, while focusing on eliminating any potential side affects.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...antirattle.jpg

Regardless of the type of usage, track or street, all metals expands with heat. Because of the fact that cast iron and aluminum also expand at different rates, it's important to allow the disc to have room to grow so that it doesn't stress the mounting points or hardware between the different materials. There are issues that affect the rate of fatigue when you join dissimilar materials and expose them to high stress applications. This is the exact reason that racing applications lead to the development of floating rotors, and away from fixed/bolted applications.

Cast iron by nature doesn't have the ductility to deform and return to it's original state which is why there is a higher chance of warpage and/or cracking when it is not allowed proper room for expansion. I personally do not recognize the "maintenance-free nature" of a fixed/bolted disc unless you are fully aware that you are not introducing the components to temperatures/expansion that exceed the natural elasticity of the materials used. Some companies simply recommend that you regularly inspect and re-torque the disc assemblies, others suggest that you safety wire each piece of hardware. A few specifically use steel hats/bells to bring the material likeness closer together, while some offer the opinion that the product is not ideal for excessive track use (which should also include aggressive street driving that can create nearly identical peak temperatures).

Again, an example of a difference in opinions based on each of our personal experiences. I just wanted to share that the Brembo float hardware does off the best of both worlds with none of the issues previously mentioned.

Factory sport calipers:
Front
11.0 bare, 13.0 with pads
Rear
5.6 bare, 7.0 with pads

Gary and I agree that for racing applications, floating disc assemblies are preferred for the many advantages they offer. Brembo has done a good job over the years mitigating the side effects for the street, with the GT-R being one notable exception. Others have used floating discs in an attempt to hide poor metallurgy, sub-standard engineering or lack of testing. To modify an old phrase: If you don't know, float it!

But for most mortals that keep bulk disc temperatures below 1150°F or so, we have found that floating discs are not required or even desired in many cases. This applies to almost all street guys and most beginner to intermediate track guys. In fact for many kits, the downside outweighs the benefits since the advantages don't even come in to play at lower temps. Note: I am only saying this under the assumption that high quality materials and workmanship are used throughout. Brake systems that spend time over 1150°F would benefit from floating discs more than the drawbacks. These are the faster intermediate and advanced drivers or those that, for whatever reason, are just harder on their equipment than most. Anyone who tracks their car should be at least using temperature paints on the OD of the disc so they know what temps their brakes are seeing. This is imperative for pad selection and the common discovery that better cooling might be a good idea.

Cast iron is a less ductile material than aluminum, for sure, but it certainly expands and contracts during thermal cycles. The trouble begins if it is operated beyond its plasticity region. It doesn't much matter if the disc is bolted or floating, once taken beyond the plastic part of the stress-strain curve, the material is screwed. Floating disc assemblies do hide problems better as they decouple the disc from the hat, but the problem is still there if it ever starts.

The most common mode of failure for bolted disc assemblies is coning, or the out-of-plane distortion that occurs when a very hot iron disc is trying to expand due to temperature and high rotational speed, but is held on only one side by the hat. While the aluminum hat does give a bit for the iron, at a certain point, a combination of temperature and speed, it is not enough. This is the primary issue that floating discs address (among a few others). Yet it only occurs under extreme use and extreme temperatures, approaching race usage. Again, full-on racing brake systems are different for a variety of reasons. Not all of the solutions found on the track could or should be used in brake systems primarily meant for the street, but a lot of advances to come from racing. Anyone who has tried race pads and full-floating rotors on the street (and lived to tell about it) knows exactly what I'm talking about!

This is where I usually hear, "Great Chris, just cut to the damn chase and tell us if floating discs are better than bolted!" OK, here's my answer, "Yes. And no. And sometimes. It depends on what they are being used for." Now isn't THAT helpful?

Since we're on the topic, I do not agree at all with those companies (not Gary's) that tout they race on the same exact equipment they sell to the street guys. This leads to either an under-performing race setup or an overly compromised street system. When comparing both applications, there are certain requirements that are diametrically opposed and that is why both AP Racing and Brembo use different equipment for each. If you compare a professional racing brake system to even the highest-priced street systems, you will find a significant price difference (sometimes 2-3x!). Some of the most advanced systems cost over $30k per car, not including pads, lines, fluid, hardware, etc. That should tell you a lot about the differences.

And for those that might be reading this and wondering, we would NEVER, EVER recommend re-torquing an AP Racing disc assembly. These are carefully torqued during assembly to a prescribed value that takes thermal expansion into account. The #1 cause of broken hardware is an over-eager, but well-meaning, mechanic torquing the nuts to a value that might be considered "normal" for a 1/4-28 steel fastener (usually 85-90% of yield strength). Then when everything gets hot and starts to expand, the bolt is stretched beyond its limit and either loosens up or fails outright. Either of which is a recipe for disaster!

Chris

Thank you so much for that little nugget of info! My powdercoating business focuses on brake calipers. I've done 2 sets of rotor hats for AP racing setups on the 350Z. Fortunately, they were both show cars and the brakes will probably never even get warm, but I now will not do them at all, or just mask the rest of the rotor if I do and leave them assembled.

When the ring wears out do they have to buy a whole new assembly? Or send them in to have them re-ringed?

The iron outer rings are are sold separately and can easily be replaced by a qualified mechanic (or an experienced DIY'er that is methodical about reading instructions). New hardware should always be used so the torque values are accurate with the new discs.

BTW, powder coating hats that are bolted to discs does not present a huge problem, although I wouldn't do it on a car I was taking to the track. I would not recommend powder coating floating hats as the clearances would change too much with the added thickness of the paint. Depending on which type of float hardware is being used, you might not even be able the get bobbins back into the slots!

Chris

I don't offer any powdercoating for cars that see the track. I do ceramic coat the hats on solid rotors, as that holds up much better and still prevents rust. And I do powdercoat my own calipers that see track duty, but thats because I can redo them whenever I want.

Chris and Gary: thank you. I hope I didn't start anything, but the comments from both sides are pretty epic for a forum. You have outdone yourself.

I looks like the weight is just not a deciding factor; it's too close to really be relevant. Thanks for listing them though. There are some other things that have gotten my attention, but I will leave it to each person on here to judge on their own. I can see a few pros and cons either way, but I would say that you both more than justified AP and Brembo kits for this car. It might sound dumb, but I actually feel honored that you both took time to give us this much detail.

Anyway, I'm happy. Now I just need to wait for my bonus to get mine on order... :stirthepot:

Chris - I am curious. Why does the iron hat on the rears help the parking brake function?

Vehicles that have a drum-in-hat (DIH) mechanism for a parking brake, like most Nissans do, rely on the hat portion to stand up to the load put on them by the brake shoes. There a hill-holding requirement in some U.S. states that test for this as part of an annual inspection. And, some people actually use the parking brake to help rotate the car in slow corners. I know it is hard to believe and I'm sure you have never personally done this (:tiphat:), but it has been known to happen.

Although lighter, aluminum would not survive nearly as well over time in this environment. The first issue is abrasion from the shoes once any plating wore through. The second is the possibility of the parking brake being set after hot lapping (I suggest never doing this regardless of hat material). If done, there is a good chance that a very hot aluminum hat would distort and go out of round. Iron hats don't suffer the same fate as they pretty much last forever. There are some cars for which aluminum rear hats make sense, but the Nissans did not meet all of our qualifications for such.

Chris

That makes sense... thanks!

And of course I never e-braked turns in my first car, an '86 Ford Taurus, in parking lots at night. The tricky thing about that car was that it had a foot brake, which is not easy to feather when you're trying to steer and hold the release out at the same time. Not that I would know...

I would also never use the e-brake when a cop is coming up on me, but it's good to know I could continue to not do that if I got an AP kit.

Thanks guys. If I knew how to rep, I'd give you both one...

It looks like the kits save ~25 lbs of unsprung weight on the front alone. That's pretty sweet...

The unsprung weight savings will be nice.

To give rep click the little scale icon on the bottom left of the post, in between the green dot and the triangle report abuse icon.

Nice - thanks! I was trying to click on the green dot...:ugh2:

I have weights for some BBK's when I was researching them. I lost the wilwood specs but they were the lightest I found.

Stock Akebono:
Front caliper: 11lbs
Front rotor: 29lbs
Rear caliper: 6lbs
Rear rotor: NA

Alliance BBK:
8 piston caliper: 6.50lbs
6 piston caliper: 5.95lbs
14" rear rotor: 21.75lbs
15" front rotor: 21.00lbs

AP Racing:
Front 6 piston caliper: 7.3 lbs
Rotor weight, assembled: 20.3 lbs
Rear 4 piston caliper: 4.7 lbs
Rotor weight, assembled: 22.8 lbs

Stoptech BBK:
Front 6 piston Calipers: 8.5lbs
Front 380x32mm rotors with hats mounted: 21lbs
Rear 4 piston calipers: 8lbs
Rear 355x32mm rotors with hats mounted: 19lbs

i would choose AP cuz travisjb did....and he's a real racer!!! =D

I did too, not just because of Travis but subconsciously that probably did have some influence I guess :)

The only concern I had over the AP are the dust boots used on the front calipers (the CP7041 caliper). Under extreme heat these dust boots have been known to get cooked, but that was in a different car. I'm confident that it should hold up well under HPDE driving. There is the more heavy duty CP5555 caliper but that would add significant cost to the kit.

every dust boot will cook under extreme use. Even though I track heavily (80% of my miles are track miles) I went with the front brembo upgrade because in addition to my desires, I also have a budget, plus the APs wouldn't fit my wheels.

The brembos do the job.

The AP full kit is cheaper than the Brembo full kit, or at least it was when it was on sale.

Are you sure it wouldn't fit? You have an angle grinder don't you :ugh2:
j/k The kit fits most 18" wheels, yours must bit a little thicker than most.

Brembo upgrade is cheapest.

AP kit is next.

Full Brembo GT set is above AP.


Mike: 80% of your miles are on track? Does that include driving there and back? You must live close to the track and not use your car for anything else... or am I missing a joke.

Imag, rep coming for a great thread ! :)

AP Racing, Brembo, Stillen (and fine Vivid 'Racing' too!) - great contributions and I have to say thanks for fact-based debate and sharing some hard data

Not sure I can add much to this discussion other than these few points:

- I've been running the AP Racing BBK front and rear for a few months and I couldn't be happier... no more fade, great pedal feel, improved control, full confidence
- Stillen has been over the top ready to support this kit and has some great technical staff standing by to help you dial it in and select the right pads etc
- the overall price really wasn't that bad - install is a snap and as may have been mentioned you should be able to get some bucks for your stock kit... my personal viewpoint is that brakes is the last place to 'go cheap' - please don't base your decision on a few hundred bucks of price difference
- here's a link to my original review a few months back if you haven't seen it http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...installed.html

Truthfully, the brembos didn't fit either, I just didn't have a template for them to check in advance, and yes, an angle grinder does work wonders!

I just drove it from atlanta to VIR and back, but I have been trailering. My friends sold their trailer though :( Now my track wheels are in South Carolina at a friends house, since they don't fit in the car. I'm going to get a hitch on the Z and a small wheel trailer so I can actually drive it on the road more, to and from events. The 6 hour drive was much nicer in the Z than in the Tahoe pulling the Z.

We have 4 cars between two of us, plus I'm on call for the airline and they don't call me, and for my other job I work from home, so I really don't use the Z for anything but track days right now, plus maybe the occassional run out to lunch or something

I agree that cheap really shouldn't be one of the criteria, but if you can get a deal on what is known to be a quality kit then that is a different story.

Both the Brembo GT and the AP Racing appear to be quality kits, but ultimately the decision came down to the fact that I could run 18" wheels with the AP but couldn't with the Brembo GT (although you could with just the Brembo front caliper upgrade as Mike did).

I've only dealt with this issue a handful of times, but not in the last year or two. Currently, all AP Racing road car calipers are being shipped with seal material technology that was used in professional racing just 5 years ago. Due to increased sales volumes, AP was able to improve the material and swallow the cost increase. If anyone experiences an issue, they should contact their AP distributor. All caliper seal kits available now are the latest seal material.

Chris

Excellent news, just what I wanted to hear. It's great having the company reps here, you guys are on the ball!

looking at the size of the tiny pins on the rotor hat for the alliance kit makes me scared LOL

The Alliance kit is fine for a street/show car that doesn't see the track much. When you make your choice based on which kit comes with the prettiest color choices, well then you know where your priorities lay.

anyone actually sell the AP Racing BBK other than Stillen?

I believe it is exclusive but you could always call ap racing and find out for sure...

STILLEN is the North American exclusive importer for AP Racing road brake kits.. but it goes much beyond that.

We co-develop brake kits utilizing AP Racing components. AP Racing is in the UK, and develop kits for US vehicles using our R&D and engineering staff at STILLEN.

AP Racing BBKs are available throughout the network of STILLEN dealers, a lot of whom are forum sponsors here, such as Forged Performance, Vivid Racing, and potentially even your local Nissan dealership, depending on the specific one and location, but any of them can get them if you'd prefer to have your dealership purchase and install them.

If you're looking for someone specific, feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to help if you're looking for a local dealer.

Status of mind after reading whole thread: blown.