Oh, one more thing I thought off: the Citroen DS, SM, CX: front wheel drive cars with rear track widths way narrower then the front track width. These cars did SERIOUSLY under steer. (I drove the CX myself and can confirm from experience)

"They list widening front track to lower understeer... then narrowing rear for reducing oversteer sounds a little odd."

This is exactly what baffles me, "if" widening the front track reduces understeer, which most seem to agree with, then it would seem that narrowing the rear track would have the same effect, reduce understeer/increase oversteer, NOT as it states (reduce oversteer = reduce rear track)

I've been doing research and it seem that its a pretty hotly debated subject we've stumbled into here. It appears that some of todays supercars are using a wider front track.

Lets put it this way though, making the front wider is the same as making the rear narrower. If making the front wider reduces understeer, then by definition decreasing rear track will also reduce understeer. If you are reducing understeer, you are increasing oversteer.

Basically, A narrower rear track will increase oversteer.

Someone posted the reasoning was that a wider front track will increase the amount of rolling load that the front track manages. More load going into the front tires means more grip up front, less in the rear.

Still waiting for the install to happen, building up a little toy box of mods and none have been installed. Half of the mods are sitting at Z Car Garage and the rest in my garage. Just getting some pre knowledge so when I buy the sways I will have made the right purchase for my already mods list.

The camber settings are exactly what I was looking for, in addition to the benefit of sways with wheel spacers. I am leaning towards the Stillen sways based on our previous discussion on another thread that Hotchkis would be better suited for coilovers and Stillen would be better suited with Eibachs.

Thanks again for your advise!




You got that right, I did not know that my confused mis-quote of a couple of members would get a hot debate going. No offense to anyone, like I said from the start that I am naïve to this stuff. Like you said it’s all about finding the right balance. I will sit back and learn from the more knowledgeable members and not stir the pot of confusion with my inexperience in this area. Thanks for the advise!

This thread is getting very interesting and I was hoping someone (John) would provide a link to a resource to educate me in this area. You guys have been great and very patient with me. That is why I joined this forum!

Cheers
Curtis

thinking about 15 front and 20 rear spacers, eibach springs and sway bar, and 255/35 front and 295/30 rear on 19 inch OEM Rays

do you think i need a camber kit as well........?

is it required to have an alignment?

also, i need to have a camber kit to have the alignment, right?

You definitely need an alignment. I was able to get alignment to factory specs with all of the above except stock tires.

What if we want to maintain factory ride height and OEM 19" wheels (speed bumps where I live are crazy), but add the 15/20 spacers? Is it possible to get alignment to factory specs without a camber kit? Someone above mentioned negative camber after installing spacers being desirable, is this necessary to maintain the factory handling and longevity qualities?

I asked earlier about how this would affect wheel bearings. 15/20 would not affect wheel bearings at all?

Finally, someone mentioned having a larger spacer in the rear might increase understeer. In that case should I go 15/15?

Sorry, just very confused about all of this.

Thanks...

Yes, you dont need to lower the car to install spacers.

If you don't lower it, then absolutely. If you do lower it, then probably not. The more you lower it the more you have to get a camber kit.

I think you are confusing installing spacers with installing springs. You will gain a bit of negative camber when you lower the car. Negative camber is better for cornering grip, but excessive amounts of it will wear out your tires quickly.

The ratio between front and rear camber plays a big part in dictating the behavior of your car. More negative camber up front means more grip to the front tires on corners; that means that the front tires will have proportionally more grip than the rears. If you are in a corner and your front tires have more grip, then your rear tires will slide first. That is called oversteer.

If your front to rear camber ratio is the other way around; meaning that there is more negative camber in the rear, then that will cause the front to start sliding out first. When the front tires lose grip first, that's called understeer. You are trying to turn, but the front tires dont grip, that causes you to "push" or "plow". So instead of turning where you want it to and making the arc you want for the turn, it is opening up that arc and pushing the arc wider than what is optimal.

To explain camber, I always just tell people to picture it in their minds. Your traction is linked to the physical connection between the tire and the ground. The bigger the contact patch, the more grip you have. That means that if the tire is flat on the ground, aka perfectly vertical, then the contact patch is as big as possible. Vertical would look like this "||".

What happens though, is that because the car is on a suspension that needs to be soft enough to absorb bumps, when we go into a corner the tire doesnt stay straight on the ground. The suspension flexes because of the sideways load of the g-forces acting on the mass of the car. That means that the tire is no longer flat on the ground in a corner. If you start from this "||" and you take a corner, your tires will end up like this "//". In other words, due to the flex of the suspension, etc. your previously flat-on-the-ground tires are no longer flat, but one edge has lifted off. That causes your contact patch to shrink dramatically and as we know already, smaller contact patch means less grip.

So how do you get the contact patch to still be as large as possible in the middle of a corner? In other words, we want the tire to be completely vertical in the middle of the corner to maximize grip. The answer is to start from "\\" position, so that when the suspension bends and the g-forces act on the car, it will pull it from "\\" to a "||" position. You are starting from a slight angle that opposes loads of a turn; it would look like this "// \\". That guarantees that no matter which way you turn, one of your front wheels will be flat. On a left hand turn where the car leans to the right, it would look like this "// ||" that means that the right side front tire has the biggest contact patch. That tire also has the biggest amount of grip because the weight of the car shifts to that end of the car. If you remember from physics class, pressure is one of the factors that affects grip. The more pressure, the more grip you have. If you were making a right turn then the weight would shift the other way like this: "|| \\" and the same thing would occur except with the front left tire.

When you have 0 degrees of camber, that means that your tire is like this "||". When you have negative camber, the tops of your tires are closer together like this "// \\" and positive camber is the opposite "\\ //".

I am never writing all that again, wow did I get myself into that mess and then it was too late to quit. If that doesn't get one rep I'm signing off these forums forever. :D

I'm not sure about the bearings, but it wouldnt be too far fetched that the greater leverage caused by the wheel being further away has unwanted effects. However I think its negligible at most.

Dont go 15/15 cause of that, just get what you like. I really don't think its going to make any difference in your life. Plus if you do get understeer....you can always go a little more negative with the camber up front and that will help you correct it.

i think minicobra had similar setup with spacer, eibach spring, and sway bar, but he did not state about the alignment.......nor camber kit...........

i think i also read that with spacer in this particular set-up, there would be less of the effective negative camber........thus, alignment is not required.........

is my understanding accurate? please enlighten me *^^*

so, camber kit is a must........with spacer, sway bar, and eibach spring with wider tires on OEM rays...

also, in terms of balancing, what is the optimal camber spec? is OEM spec the optimal?

i would think this would be more of personal preference, but for a daily driver what is the optimal camber spec......

does anyone have similar set-up as what i have listed including 255/35 and 295/30 tires in OEM Rays?

i would appreciate feedbacks based on experience......

OEM spec is optimal for daily driving.

^ for you maybe :) I'm at -2.5 all day every day.

Personal preference!

I am going to run my Z in NASCAR anyways so I am going to have like +8 degrees in the left front. :)

-8 on the right, +8 on the left, case closed. VIP NASCAR Style

just curious, why are the aligned camber specs different from one side to the other, from right to left?

i understand that to balance understeer and oversteer, the front and rear should be adjusted to one's preference - thus, their specs could be different.

just a bit baffled............should not the two front tires have the same spec, just assuminging that everything is new and properly functional?

once again, thank you, RCZ and M4A1mustang........... i appreciate your patience... *^^*

no no no that was a joke, they should be equal! Dont get confused.

Also -8 degrees is a ridiculous amount of camber. You should be aiming for something like -1.5ish front and -1.3 rear at most. Others will tell you to go higher... like a -1.3F and -1.0R. Look at it this way, the more negative you go, the more responsive and grippy the car is, but they will also wear out quicker.

spacers only, you don't need an alignment, although it would be good to get. But with springs, or any suspension change, once you start unbolting and rebolting things together, you always need an alignment. I'm putting Nismo suspension in right now and will need another alignment when I'm done.

Yeah... those are in strictly racing conditions... and oval racing at that, which is going to be a lot more aggressive with camber settings due to the extreme banking in the corners.

I remember some teams were running around +12 on the left front at Pocono a few years back. There were a lot of issues with blowing the left front out that year and it became a safety issue so the maximum camber when they came back was limited to +8 degrees.

You just have to keep in mind that the whole idea of running any camber at all is to maximize the tire's contact patch while loaded in a corner. Most road course setups (and all street setups) are going to be symmetrical for the best 50/50 balance possible. However when you get into some more hardcore racing where you tweak the setup for each individual track, you start to see some asymmetrical setups show up.

:icon18::icon18::icon17:

i know that was a joke :iagree::iagree:

i am not that cynical or impractical...............:tup:

but i was not referring to your post...............

someone from this forum posted his/her after alignment camber specs and i was wondering why the numbers were different from the right side to the left.

it would seem obvious to have the same spec on the same side for normal, daily driving.............. but i was just curious....

i guess getting a camber kit cannot go wrong........but it's additional $500 plus the installation (i do not have the balls to install it myself yet :roflpuke2:)

not asking much, just wish i had about $20K for modding purposes....... damn, it's so hard to balance budget........

:excited:;) simply, there are tooooooooooooooooooo many mods........... and I AM no less greedy than most of us here.............:stirthepot:

http://www.the370z.com/387744-post88.html

RCZ, rep coming your way. Excellent write up!

how do you give rep points..............RCZ is awesome and dedicated........so is m4a1mustang..............

Hehe... on the left hand box with our names you will see 3 icons at the very bottom. The middle one is the "add to users reputation box."

:tup:

k...rep-points given to RCZ and m4a1mustang for a super job in explaining sways.

Q: How come your sigs still have the same Rep Power numbers?

You have to get a lot more than one to get the points up and it's also tied to your number of posts. Another tip, leave your name on the comment section when you give rep so people can know who its coming from! Thanks for the rep guys!

Thanks for the clarification and the tips. :tup: Both of you guys contribute a lot to this forum and rep points is a great way for the community to reconize members.

Thanks, man. I appreciate the rep. :)

Is there anybody with 19" Rays wheels, lowered, and has 20mm spacers up front and 25mm spacers in the rear? After about a month of contemplating, I still can't decide whether to go with 15mm/20mm or 20mm/25mm. I'm leaning toward the latter because I like that absolutely flush look, but I want to make sure the wheels won't stick out past the fenders. Ugh...decisions decisions...

It depends on your drop. 20mm up front MAY rub.

Some related links on the front. http://www.the370z.com/276835-post33.html also scroll down to post # 37

http://www.the370z.com/159679-post96.html

http://www.the370z.com/381790-post65.html

25mm in rear will work. Mike has them and they work. Do a search on his posts.

Thanks! :tup:

Finally!! Pictures of a lowered Z with 19" Rays and 20mm/25mm spacers!

Nissan 370Z Forum - josh88's Album: Z-licious

Personally, I find this setup to be the most impressive. What do you guys think?

How much is he lowered in the front on the BC coilovers? Any rubbing in the front?

I agree the look is awesome. I may have to sell my unopened H&R 15mm fronts and buy the 20mm if there is no rubbing.

Looks great from some pics, a little too much for me in others.

No rubbing issues at all, I love the look and wish i could go a little lower but feel I would lose driveability. The rear tires have a large rim protector that sticks out farther than any other tires I've seen. Car is lowered about 1.4 inches all the way around. I believe th ground to fender height is approx. 26.6inches all around.

Is there a real difference in quality among the different brands of spacers (e.g., Ichiba, H&R, CZP, Kics) or is the only difference based on price? :confused:

the hub ring on the H&R protrudes farther into the wheel than the Ichiba. It made a difference with my nismo s-tune wheels.

that looks perfect IMO :tup:

Thanks man for the feedback. These will work then for Eibachs (1.0" drop) with no rubbing issues...woot..woot. Looks like I am gonna have to spill some $$ on the 20mm to mount up front.

That will give me 15mm, 20mm and 25mm to tryout, then sell the size I do not use.

Go with the best in quality and no issues with fitment = H&R

Does that mean that if I get 20mm front H&R spacers that I don't have to get hubcentric (i.e., I can just get bolt-on) or do I still have to get hubcentric?

You still want hubcentric