Edit: removed what I said here, in light of semtex's simul-post above

To me the cruise control thing is a pretty key feature too, although maybe it isn't for everyone. Being able to swap out 5 different maps instantly from the steering wheel is nice (think of the uses aside from your standard "aggressive tune for premium pump gas": 1 or more different race gas tunes for what's available at tracks you frequent, a valet mode tune, a fuel efficient / mild tune, etc).

I maybe a little biased towards UPREV, but I have also seen what people have said on the other versions like Cobb. Many have switched to UPREV from Cobb due to things they didn't like about it. I just don't want to see anyone spend so much money on Cobb right now as you can go with the better one right off the bat.

Cobb is better for the Scooby guys. It just doesn't work as good in Nissan's as people wish to believe and UPREV does. But it is your choice and I just want you to make a good decision or whoever it is on which to get. I try to point out things, but it has been hashed out so much on the other site that you can just search it and find them.

Okay so what are the cost diffeneces?
Cobb- $695
Uprev -$1250

And they do the same for N/A cars as Semtex stated above. Would this be correct. Both have data logging and can send in for fine tuning via email. I don't know why I would spen double the price just to change maps from my crusie control...please correct me if I am wrong on these pricing. I am very axnious to get one of these, but just want to get all the facts straight.

Yep, and I appreciate your efforts at not wanting people to waste their money. I very much appreciate that. The way I put it to Sharif is that, bottom line, I don't want to tune now with Cobb only to find out several months from now that I could have gotten another 10 whp with UpRev! But he assures me that that won't happen. Now, he did qualify that by saying 'for a NA car'. In other words, I'm lead to believe that if you go FI, then UpRev does indeed have an advantage over Cobb. But maybe Sharif can fill in some more details for us later.

Good discussions going on here.

I have been reviewing Cobb's technical bulletins and the AP tuning offers everything except for Cam phasing/lift control. The VVEL system is very sophisticated, and it's going to be a while before tuners have full understsanding and control over this. It's important to make the distinction between Camshaft Phasing (also called camshaft timing control), and Camshaft lift control. As a side note, the vast majority of power gains come from fuel and IGNITION timing enhancements, rather than cam phasing and lift contorl. We tune cam phasing on the VQ35's with haltech, and it's easy to see that the OEM mapping got this one pretty right. On the intake side, at WOT, we run from full advance, to full retard by redline. There isn't much more room for refinement there.

We are ProTuners for both Cobb and UpRev, and have quite a bit of experience with both of them, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I think we are one of the few Nissan based shops that has hands on experience tuning the Cobb AP, which we've done with the GT-R, and also the EvoX.

Prior to the tuning software becoming available, it was easy to not like the Cobb AP for the 350Z....it wasn't tunable. :) Definately, prior to this, UpRev was the no brainer NA tuning approach for the 350z guys.

Well, are you planning to get a dyno tune? Or just downloadable maps? Because I think that makes a difference. With dyno-tuning, Cobb is actually a little more expensive than UpRev. If you're not planning to dyno tune, then I'd recommend going with UpRev. Be aware, however, that UpRev isn't ready yet. They're still developing their software for the 370Z, last I checked.

Hmm...I guess I misheard you when we spoke on the phone. I thought you said that you could tweak cam phasing with Cobb. But from your comments above, this is pretty inconsequential for an NA car, right? i.e., not a reason to hold off and wait for UpRev?

Well I hope that I can use the data logging on the Cobb and send it to a tuner via email and get better maps sent back from the tuner. It states that on their website, due to not having good tuner shops around here, but not sure if this can actually be done, or if any tuner shops will do this.

UPREV doesn't cost near $1250. More around $700 for the tunable one. If not then you can get it for $400 or $500 now.

Thanks all the software options they have are a bit confusing
Cipher
Osiris
Etune

What you want is Osiris Standard, which includes Cipher as well as three eTunes. That costs $700. If you're not going to do a real dyno tune, this makes more sense than Cobb (imo) because you actually send UpRev your data logs and they build you a map based on that data. That's pretty darn close to a proper dyno tune, I think. With Cobb, on the other hand, you just have to take their canned, one size fits all, staged maps. I think Cobb is a good option only if you're planning to use it in conjunction with a proper dyno tune.

Cobb's website states that you can data logg and send your info to a tuner and get a better map via email. So that is why I was leaning towards cobb. Slimplicity aspect. I wanted to get clear info if this is ture. If not I proabbly will lean towards Revup

Ah, yeah you're right. Looks like there's a subtle difference though. If I'm understanding their stie correctly, Cobb doesn't do the e-tune. You have to send your data to one of their licensed Pro-Tuners (like Sharif) for the e-tune. I also found this little blurb on their e-tune page, which I think is worth emphasizing:

That is a really cool feature.

The other thing is that I drive these Z's a demo's and it would be nice to get a little more power in a conservative manner. But the main point for me is being able to "marry" one car demo it, "unmarry" sell it and "marry" another. Can I do this with the UpRev as easliy? That is the difference for me.

And I do understand your point stated above, it truely isn't a custom tune, but hopefully better then a conservative canned map.

I agree completely. I was thinking that myself. Dyno-tunes are car specific based on modifications. This is another way of getting clost to the same results.

I will add however, I will never get a mail order tune with an FI setup. Dyno-tuning is the only way.

I'm looking at around $1200 to get a dyno tune done (gotta head out of town) so would I be on the right track thinking the Osiris Standard with an e-tune is going to get me pretty close to a dyno tune for almost half the cost?

Yes you can. UPREV will send you the software to put your car back to stock profile. Then you pay $50 I believe to have a new license for a new car.

It sounds to me like you want the ability to put a new map in the ECU then do another car but keep the updated map in the old car. I suspect you need to get the "tuner" version in order to do that.

That is my issue with this system - you are spending a huge chunk of change for what is basically a EEPROM programer and just reads data off the data bus on your car. I haven't looked into it really but I suspect that it runs off something like a CAN network. What ends up happening when you tighten the reigns too tight to make some money is techies get upset and try to find their own hack on the system. While I don't mind paying $700 to be able to access the data bus with zero effort the fact that they are reading my serial number on my ECU then only allowing that ECU to use the hardware that burns me because I expect for $700 I should be able to hook my hardware up to my friends ECU and clear his CEL or even program his MAP if I want. $700 is a lot of coin for what this unit is and I don't mind paying for the research but the excessive restrictions are just that - too restrictive for the price paid. Feels like I'm buying an Apple product. I suspect the first hack for this will be a micro controller to monitor the bus then when the unit checks for a serial the ucontroller sends it a default serial thus bypassing the serial check then you can use it for any ECU since its married to the generated serial....

The product is licenses to that car and you can not do multiple cars with it.

What exactly is a CUSTOM TUNE on a non-turbo / non-supercharged car.

I have no idea what you are all talking about.

Are each and everyone of these Z's cars built differently. I suspect not.

Generic re-mapping based on your add on achieves exactly the same thing give or take a percentage point.

Get the research done, give me the efile, give me a cord, and download the map into the ECU and off to the races we go at the best price possible.

Better yet COBB needs to get off their rocker and get this thing out, it's not rocket science.

I realize that an I have no intention of beating the system but my point is when they jack the price way up and limit the system people will look to work around it. If they keep the price low or keep the price the same and make the system multi user then it decreases the chance the system will get bypassed because it is a good value. In todays world most of our hardware is easily upgradable and updates are typically free - look at your home electronics - TVs, MP3 players, computers, etc. There is no reason people won't start looking for firmware upgrades for their car computers (ECU) now..... smart buisinesses keep ahead of the technology instead of sucumbing to it....

Its basically optimizing the system electronically. There are certain constraints built into a system because of emissions, etc. By tweeking how the computer (which basically runs our cars now) works we can optimize performance, etc.

I suspect custom generic MAPs will work well as these cars are putting out very close to the same results. The Nissan programmed MAPs are generic to each vehicle as well.

Cheers.....

Beautiful Island VICTORIA. I used to live in Banff

Shhh - don't tell everyone! You're suppose to tell everyone how rotten it is here on the Island ;)

I do like Banff - its amazing up there..... you work up there?

UpRev tuner software for the 370Z
 

UpRev has numerous sanctioned tuners where one can have their own Z dyno'tuned, or one can datalog your Z and they will create MAP's, or one purchase MAP's from UpRev's library of Z MAPs.

UpRev has not release there tuner product yet having check there website today (6-7-09).

Yea but $1200 (around $900+ before travel) is a little steep for me to justify the end result at this point in time for a dyno tune at a sanctioned tuner.... what is everyone else paying for a tune?

Not for the 370z they haven't released it yet. But it will be soon as they have had a 370z in their hands for a little while now.

First off, in the case of the UpRev stuff, you can still hook up to the CAN and read data and clear CELs and whatnot on other cars, not just the licensed car (using your copy of Cipher). And secondly, you're not just uploading a map. What the UpRev guys have done is completely reverse-engineered the car's software and rewritten it. When you program your car with Osiris, you're replacing the factory engine software with their own custom version, which in turn allows easy uploading of multiple tuning setups to the car (again with Osiris) and easy switching of them via the cruise control buttons.

The $700 isn't paying for access to a CAN bus. The $700 is what you're paying them to defray the costs involved in reverse engineering and rewriting the car's ECU software, which is a pretty tricky endeavor.

Where are you getting your numbers from? It doesn't cost that much to get a dyno tune with UpRev. When you do a dyno tune with UpRev, you don't have to purchase their software because the tuner already has it and you're paying him to (a) do the tune, and (b) upload the new map into your ECU with his copy of the UpRev Osiris software. You only need to purchase the software yourself if you want the data logging capabilities of Cipher. Cipher costs $300. You don't need Osiris, because the tuner is using his copy of Osiris Tuner to flash your ECU.

Let me put it this way. I know how much Sharif would charge me if we dyno tuned with UpRev. I know how much he'll charge me when we do it with Cobb. It's not my place to disclose his rates here. But I will tell you that if I just did UpRev and didn't get Cipher, it'd be cheaper than Cobb. But we need to compare apples to apples as best we can. With Cobb, you get the dyno tune and you drive away with the AP device afterwards, which does the datalogging, allows you to switch in the valet and anti-theft maps, etc. Point being, to compare the UpRev price to the Cobb price, we have to throw in Cipher. At that point, the price difference between the two is marginal. i.e., the price of dyno tuning plus a copy of Cipher is roughly equivalent to the price of dyno tuning with Cobb, which automatically gives you their AP device to take with you. Cobb still ends up being a tad more expensive, but I think you get a little more as well. What I mean by this is that with Cobb, you get a self-contained device for datalogging. With UpRev Cipher, you still need to supply your own laptop to plug in. Cipher is just software you run on your laptop; there's no hardware. I don't know about you, but I don't really feel comfortable about driving around with my $3k laptop open and running and just sitting unsecured on the passenger seat while I drive around at WOT.

So the net of this is, if all you want is a proper dyno tune with UpRev and you don't care about datalogging, it won't run you $1200. Not even close. If you do want datalogging with UpRev Cipher, it still won't run you $1200 total (although it will admittedly be a lot closer to that mark). Furthermore, if you do want datalogging, then at that point I think you have to seriously consider going with Cobb instead. Unless, of course, you don't care about having a self-contained handheld device vs. having to use your own laptop.

I hope you guys know that Cobb released their pro tuner software already in which you can custom tune the car. Atleast for the G37 its out.

Yes, we know this. Review the thread. See post 17. I already have it on order with Sharif, who will be doing my dyno tune.

Sorry wasnt going to read through all the drama on the thread, just trying to help out:tiphat:

But the drama is half the fun! ;)

Drama - No, I believe confusion would be better fit.

Yea I know I've learned a lot and I think I'm still more confused than when I started ;)

Anyhow from what I can tell is the dyno tune option I have is gonna be around $900 ($1200 by the time my travel expenses are taken into account). Its an UpRev dyno tune and I have the option of up to five maps selectable by cruise control. I doesn't sound like there is any hardware included (Osiris?) or the OS software (Cipher?) just the modified MAP. Its about $400 for the dyno time and around $500 for the software mod.

I agree reverse engineering the software and coding your own OS for the ECU is impressive and should be charged for - but $300 per license for an ukernal operating system seems awefully steep. Now to interface to that software you have to spend another $400 for the Osiris software? Is Osiris useless without Cipher?

Granted you get three E-Tunes but what percentage accurate is that in comparison to a dyno tune - that will give us a good idea of the value of the product in comparison to just getting you MAP done with a dyno tune....

So it sounds like a dyno tune with the UpRev system doesn't get me anything other than an optimized MAP specifically for my car - no hardware - no custom OS for $1200. That seems steep to me but I don't know what every one else is being charged - anyone - Beuler?

You get the OBDII cable which is what costs the most. It's only $150 for the tune time. Cipher is the diagnostic logging software that you need if you ever plan to change your parameters and see what the car is doing.

Again here is the process.

1) Start Cipher, set the parameters to log, and run it. Do some 0-60-90 runs, do some Highway pulls.

2) Send them the logs.

3) They adjust the ECU parameters they did of your car on the dyno to what it needs now.

4) They email them back to you and you update your ECU. And you are done.

Cipher is $300. Osiris on top of that is $400. Dyno Tune another $150.

FricFrac,

I'm not sure your travel expenses should be part of the equation, because that's not really on whoever makes the tuning software or does the tuning, know what I mean? On the other hand, in so far as you're trying to make a personal decision, it's obviously relevant, so I guess we could go either way. Anyway, let's tackle this one piece at at time.

Okay, for the dyno tune option, you are correct that there is no hardware or software included. You get the new maps loaded into your ECU and that's it. $900 sounds about right, esp. if that's in Cdn dollars.

Yes Osiris is useless without Cipher. That's why Cipher is included with Osiris, as they clearly state on their website. So if you get Osiris Standard (presumably to go the eTune route instead of dyno tuning), your total cost is $700 US, period. Like I said, it includes Cipher. It has to, because Cipher is what logs the data. You then send those logs to UpRev and they build your eTune maps off of that data. Hence my remark that Osiris is useless without Cipher. Then they send those eTune maps back to you, and you load them into your ECU via Osiris.

I think you're on the verge of making this more complicated than it needs to be. Your options, as best as I can simplify them, are as follows:

1. Get a dyno tune with UpRev. Total cost to you including travel is $1200. If you want to be able to datalog afterwards, you will need to spend another $300 (US) and purchase Cipher, plus supply your own laptop. The total then goes up to roughly $1500 (probably something like $1540 once you do the currency conversion on the $300 for Cipher).
   
2. Forgo the dyno tune and just rely on eTunes with UpRev Osiris Standard. Total cost to you is $700 US, and it includes Cipher. So you have the datalogging software, but you still need to supply your own hardware (laptop) (they do give you the OBDII cable though). How accurate are the eTunes? More accurate than a generic map because the maps are being built off of the data from your car, but a little less accurate than a true dyno tune, because the tuner isn't there to actually get a feel for what your car is doing.
   
3. Get a dyno tune with Cobb. I don't know if you have a Cobb Pro-Tuner in your area or how much they charge, so the price is not known at this point. But you should expect it to be around $1200, not including any travel costs. So it's more expensive than a dyno tune with UpRev, but you get the Cobb AP handheld unit which does the datalogging. So no need to spend an extra $300 for datalogging software, and no need to supply your own laptop. If travel is also $300, then your total goes up to $1500, which makes it a wash between an UpRev dyno tune and a Cobb dyno tune, at least in terms of price. If it costs the same, then it boils down to preference at this point between having a standalone handheld unit from Cobb vs. having to use your own laptop with UpRev Cipher. On the other hand, with UpRev you can switch maps via your cruise control buttons, and you can't do that with Cobb. So which is more important to you? The cruise control button functionality? Or not having to use your own laptop for datalogging? I think that's the deciding factor between options 1 and 3.
   
4. There's a fourth option that we haven't given much attention to. Cobb also has its own 'eTune' type service, where you buy the Cobb AP, log the data, then send it in to a Cobb Pro-Tuner (like Sharif) and have him build your maps and send them back to you. Then you upload them via the Cobb AP handheld. I don't know what the total cost of this option is. The AP unit is $695, then you'd have to pay the tuner separately. (Maybe you should PM Sharif to see how much he'd charge). BUT, we already know that it's going to end up costing more than UpRev's eTune service. Because Osiris Standard costs $700, and it includes 3 eTunes. With Cobb, you're basically paying $700 just for the AP unit before the cost of the eTunes even enters into things. But again, that doesn't automatically mean that Cobb is ripoff, because you're getting a standalone unit with them, and not with UpRev.

Those are your options. Step 1 in your decision making process now is to ask yourself: Do you want a full-blown dyno tune? Or will an eTune suffice? If you want a full-blown dyno tune, you need to chose between options 1 and 3. If you are content with an eTune, you need to choose between options 2 and 4 (and for option 4 you need to PM Sharif to find out how much he'd charge to do your eTune maps before you'll know total cost of that option).

I don't think I can make it any more simple than this. (And you may thank me with rep. ;))

I'm not following the part about the Dyno Tune. How can you say that dyno tune time is only $150? Doesn't that depend on his tuner? And it sounds to me like his tuner already told him that he charges $400 for the dyno tune. In any case, why would he purchase Cipher/Osiris and then pay for a dyno tune on top of that? I thought the whole selling point of Osiris was that you can use their eTune service in lieu of a full-blown dyno tune and save some money that way. i.e., it's one or the other, not both. (?)