The Porshe engine data can be found here:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Oil Temperature and Engine Life

And an FYI...Elephant Racing is internationally well known for its race-design partnership with Porsche.

As I stated about the mod dollars / HP figure....I found out about this when I got started in doing mods on the various Mustangs I owned and dragged raced since 1997. There were roads I was going down much the same as you folks but I quickly learned to listen to the folks who had the experience and not pursue trying to one-up one-another and casting to the wind all common sense when it comes to price-point / HP gained.

The real insulting part is that the vendors and performance shops certainly can easily identify easy targets who decide dollars spent by way of emotion...its the oldest sales trick in the book...

So, can we get references on your data next time without a side of smartass insults? What made you decide I can't extrapolate data?

So more insults, now I'm a dummy too, and have no common sense...

And your data is basically, "Well I once raced mustangs, so I'm allowed to pull numbers outta my ***", got it.

And more insults...

What the **** is your problem, seriously? Do you honestly think you can read my mind from Ohio? Do you know of a source for a better bolt-on setup than what most of us are running, getting all the same benefits cheaper on a 370Z? If so, please share your knowledge with the rest of us, even though we're idiot losers. :rolleyes:

Maybe you just need to slow down and rethink how you're posting. Read what you're posting before you hit that button. You realize if you talked like this to anyone in person (say at a car meet), people would either walk away, call you you a *******, or beat you into the ground, depending on their personal demeanor, right?

I don't hide behind the screen as I can certainly take care of myself even in "live" situations...HOWEVER...I do realize I have gone over the top with this post....I do certainly agree with you on that point in your above quote.....

Perhaps there is hope for us to get along here yet....so let's just put this one behind us and both of us accept the fact that we both share an intent to promote the "Z" and that we both come at it from different directions.

I deleted all the insult posts I made the last day or so in this thread as a metaphoric olive-branch offering to you that I am listening to what it is you are saying. And I offer to you an apology for going over the top...

I'm still lost at that hp-per dollar thing though. I mean. More horsepower alone doesn't mean you'll be any faster than the next car. There's more to mods than just power. Some people have money to blow.

It's funny how you guys are fighting about "ROI" & "Investments."

Cars & Mods are never "investments" & doesn't return or make you any money for the average consumer.

So stop fighting about the stupid "Wow you spent $5k for 47hp, terrible investment"

When I say "investment" as it pertains to mods I am using the term very loosely as we all know that most cars deppreciate.

I was discussing with a bunch of hard core (about a dozen) Mustang folks at a show yesteday about this particular argument that was going on. Now some of these people I knew and some I never met before in my life. And they all agreed that $25 to $30 per HP gained is the acceptable measure to use when figurring out mod costs in order to tell if you are getting ripped-off or not by the vendors.

I am NOT trying to belabor this point but I was checking with them whether anything had changed since 1997 when I first started getting into modding my cars. And nothing has changed. The figures I quoted are still considered to be the same figures used for making a determination as to whether the potential gain in HP is worth the money you spend obtaining that HP.

So I am going to leave this figure up here for those folks who want to have a measuring stick to use in the future when trying to determine is a mod or mods are going to be worth doing dollar-wise. You can't go wrong with this measuring stick as it has lots of support from folks you spend their summers at the tracks testing their modifications.

To those folks who want to throw away there money then all I can say is...can you send me some of that cash you don't care blowing?

Id be curious to see how you would achieve these NA gains at your price point? Id like an itemized list since you seem to be so well versed in these matters. :ugh2:

What you don't seem to get is that numbers are just that, numbers. More power alone does not equal a better or a faster car. The guy just put on basic boltons and tuned it. I don't see the big deal. He's trying to make HIS daily driver a quicker car. I'm sure if he wanted a fast and cheaper route, he would. That's not the case.

You also seem to throw out the cost of the car itself. That's a big factor. Those 167mph 1/4 gallardos are expensive. Their turbo kits are over $30,000. Sure you can go faster for cheaper in an old stang but who cares? You just went 8 seconds in the 1/4 in a Lambo. Also, this is a brand new car with a brand new motor. Of course the prices will be sky high right now. Just wait until the car gets more popular and such. I don't agree with hp vs. cost at all. I rather have results. So many factors in between and around your cost vs. hp equation. Would you like to see a video of a 715whp Evo just DESTROY a 1000whp Corvette? Power band, suspension, gearing, tires, aerodynamics, weight, driving skill and a whole bunch of other ****. But cost vs. hp is most important, not results, lol.

Also, a LOT of you missed when he said he had an exhaust mod done on his baseline. The baseline would have been much lower if it were stock. Therefore the gains would have looked a lot higher as well.

I completely understand that "more power alone does not equal a better or a faster car". I have been doing the mods stuff for 12 years so I am quite astute in regards to what mods can or cannot do for a car. I have been telling folks for years that mods are not the end all to beat all to being faster or whatever. So how about dropping that already as we have been on the same page since way before you ever brought that point up.

My post is about pricepoint. And yes I know it is an arbitrary number around which to plan mods but in the musclecar world it is a number that most HARDCORE mod-heads who spend their lives at the track beyond the weekend warrior stuff. The general rule is unless you have very deep pockets or sponsors the price-point per HP is between $25 and $30.

I am talking strictly from a price perspective as a guage for your wallet. And you cannot even begin to make an argument that spending $5000 to make 47 additional HP is cost-effective by any means...and I don't care what his exhaust baseline would have been as it more than likely wouldn't be enough on the plus side ( 20 HP addition perhaps) to even make that much difference in the cost per horse ($84 / HP).....use your COMMON SENSE man and JUST LOOK at the amount of the damn money that was spent to make 47 HP.

47 HP @ $5000.00 ???????
:icon18::icon18::icon18:

So I just saw that he spent 5gs in the OP, lol. What cost phimosis 5 grand?

WTF?!

Take a look here.
That was from the "my 350z" forum.

I'm going to search for the prices of the parts myself because I do not see how the combination of all of that is anywhere near 5 grand...And that's without headers.

Stillen G3 intakes: $549
STILLEN : STILLEN Generation 3 Ultra Long Tube Dual Intake Kit

Stillen headers: $786
STILLEN : STILLEN 350Z / G35 / G37 / 370Z Headers

Stillen exhaust: $1575 (Ok seriously, for an exhaust system?! I'd go custom, lol. I think this is where most of the money went)
STILLEN : STILLEN 370Z Dual Exhaust System

So it's now $2910. I don't know how much hfc's are because I can't find them. So I'll give it $300 (is that a fair price? EDIT: **** my life, $570 for hiflow cats...Give me test pipes.). So $3480, as proven should make at least 55whp I added the headers into the equation though so it should be a bit more whp. $700 for the ECU and dyno time. So now it's $4180. For what SHOULD have been over 55 whp as claimed by the company that made the products on phimosis' car. Without a tune.

I don't know where 5gs came in...Labor? And I don't know where his power went. Maybe the guys at Stillen can chime in.

So in a jist, $2697 = 55whp (dyno proven by stillen), WITHOUT headers. Maybe the tune? Lol, I dunno.

I believe 5k included labor to do all the installs? Headers are NOT easy on this car.

intake: $549
Headers: $786
HFC's: $573
exhaust: $1575
8.75% Sales Tax: $305
Install: $800
ECU re-map: $500
Dyno time: $200

Total: $5288.

But, I got some of the parts on sale at Stillen, so it was a little cheaper.

BTW, you guys can set here and rant all you want about how much power I should get and how much it costs, etc., but as I've said in a post earlier in this thread: This is not a mustang. I've owned 3 of them. This car does not make 60 hp per liter. Squeezing performance gains out of a high strung engine will not be as cheap. Hell, for $5000 you can go buy a 10 year old mustang and mod it so it will be faster than my Z. Do I care? Nope. Not one bit.

The purpose of my initial post was not to brag about how much money I have to spend or to belittle Stillen because my car didn't get the same gains on the dyno as what they advertise. It was simply a real world exercise to show people what it will cost and what they should expect if they do this to their car.

I hate to say it, but I'm going to unsubscribe from my own thread because of all the immature bickering going on in here. I used to have arguments like this with my brother back when I was in highschool. But that was 20 years ago. Enough.

There is no "immature" bickering going on. We are accepting the fact that others don't agree necessarily and that is why we are doing what is known in Speech 101 as a rebuff argument.

Communiation doesn't require having to agree with the point another person has presented and there certainly is no requirement that you have to join hands and sing KUMBAYA around the campfire.

I learned this from wstar earlier in this thread so why don't you give it a shot and just learn to tolerate disagreements. No one here has leveled any personal threats againt me in their posting so why are you doing a "spray and pray" with your remark about "immature bickering"?

BTW, if go to Stillen and buy a bunch, ask for a Package price.

I took my car to a tuner, going to get Stillen Headers, HFC, Gen 3 intake, grounding kit and Under pulley. I already had the Stillen exhaust on but nothing else for go. Did change suspension and brakes but they don't affect HP. After I left the car, the dyno guy did a baseline run. They have some "pack" that they use. The results were 270 ft-lbs, 334 WHP. I'm going to try and attach the output but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

Anyway, I though the numbers were a bit high.

Yes, those numbers are way high for a stock car with just the Stillen exhaust. I don't think anyone's posted results from a Hollyroller dyno here before. It could be that they read very high (even higher than DynoJet by a lot, it seems). For reference, Semtex's car ran 330rwhp on DynoJet and and 317 on Dyno Dynamics with a very complete set of bolt-ons (but no ECU tuning yet). Mine hit 300 on a DD with basically the same setup, but mine's 7AT.

You guys need sponsors... teehee


Stillen HFC
Stllen CBE
Stillen GenIII intake
JWT Clutch
JWT Flywheel
B&M Short Shifter
SS brake lines
ECU reflash + dyno tuned to death
Oil cooler
Tanabe GF210 springs
Axis wheels
Cover of a magazine (ok... that one doesn't belong but ;))

Total cost out of my pocket: around $2,600.

:ughdance:

And there's more to come... :rofl2:

OK, we'll what I get after the upgrades and tuning and then go elsewhere and see what I get or just punch it and see if I like it. I'm not really into numbers I just want this car to faster than my old 300ZX TT (with 25K worth of upgrades). Just want to show some M3s and M* and other Euro "stuff" my rear spoiler. For government officials, I officially never go over 55MPH.

FYI - that's a dynapack dyno. It's a hydraulic chassis dyno that bolts up to drive hubs(wheels are removed). Dynapacks regularly read higher than dynojets - afterall, they are reporting hub hp and not wheel hp.

OK, now I'm confused. So it's not Flywheel HP and not wheel HP. Is there a formula to convert to WHP? How does it compare to Flywheel HP?

I'm getting Stillen G3 intake, headers, HFC, under pulley, grounding kit and Cobb tuning. Is there anything else before Turbos or Supercharger?

Also T-ray, thanks for the response. For a moment I thought I had the secret Special edition engine.

It doesn't really matter honestly. Even all the dynos that all read WHP read it differently, because they use different methods of measurement and aren't well-standardized and calibrated. So we have typical DynoJet results, which differ from typical DynoDynamics results, which differ from typical Mustang Dyno results, etc. This one is just way different (and much higher) than the rest. The numbers aren't that useful when comparing between different dynos anyways.

OK, thanks for the info guys. Got the car back today. Stillen Headers, HFC, CBE, CAI, Under pulley, Grounding Kit. Fang intake (Not sure who invented it but Kudos). Cobb tuner BUT NO SOFTWARE yet. Even though not tuned, engine looked good on Dyno. Met the software engineer for the tuneup. I'm an SE and I don't do this stuff. very cool. Tuesday Tune up day.

No chance, really. Bone stock with an average driver, an '02-'04 Z06 runs a 12.5 @ 115 MPH. On the Corvette Forum, the top-10 runs in a bone stock Z06 on the official list (proven, much like the list on the 350Z forum) range from 11.78 to 12.13 at anywhere between 117 to 120 MPH, with the top-6 being in the 11s. They are quick.

As for track/autocross...it was among the fastest cars on a road-course money can buy for its time. Much like in a straight-line, it will take significant modification for a 370Z to perform with a stock Z06. Now throw some simple bolt-ons on the Z06, and it just got even harder.

One item on HP/$. I had a 300ZX TT. Adding initial "100" HP was not bad: exhaust, ECU and something else I can't remember. About 2K. Next "100" was quite expensive. Invovled new turbos, intercooler etc etc. If you take an engine that is not that sophisticated, getting first sets of HP not bad. In the old days, slapping on Weber carburetors (yes I am that old), got big gains. The 370 is finely tuned and therefore not ready to throw out big gains as NA. SC or Turbo may get bigger gains but I personally am a little leery of punching an 11:1 compression ration engine. Need reliability. Daily Driver.

Blackbird

Like you through the years I've pissed enough money away on hotrodding that you could buy a garage full of new Z's and still have a bunch of mod money left over. Big blocks, small blocks, turbo's, twin turbo's, big nitrous systems, stroker motors, etc.

Money is a realitive thing and if your counting dollars per hp, it's probably not a hobby you should have. Just met someone while at the dream cruise in MI that did a twin turbo Z06. On 5 psi boost it made 651 rwhp. Completely redone from the O ringed forged bottem end to ported heads. Cost him in total $85K and the car was gone for a full year.

Trying to detox from big hp cars and N/A these cars really are a lot of fun. However, the hp bug is hard to shake and I just don't see much more in N/A gains. Eyeing forced induction and also leery of the 11 to 1 compression. The first trick is thicker head gaskets to lower the compression. After that it's a built forged bottom end.

What's the phrase......How fast do you want to go? Answer: How much money do you have.

Nice gains, very consistent as well. Although the car lacks a particular transition to power, the linear power/torque actually provide more usable power which is more impressive than a spike at any one rpm point. That is why the car does so well on the track, this isn't a car you want to buy as a drag car well, unless you are going TT.

As far as dynos are concerned, the key isn't so much the actual number but the numbers derived from the same dyno. In other words, don't focus on what power the car made, focus on the difference in power on the same dyno in similar conditions as you mod the car. If you are going to compare numbers, make sure and compare numbers on the same dyno. If person A dynos a certain number stock on dyno A and person B dynos a number on dyno B, it's not accurate to compare the two, as many have said, each dyno will read differently. As temps, humdity, etc change...so does the power. People keep forgetting that your timing will change depending on the environmental conditions. Elevation and other factors come into play as well.

I agree with original poster that a supercharger is the only way for us CA people to go. I have a bad temper and if some cop wants to take my TT370 I would go ape chit on him. CA does suck with all its laws but hour and a half to the beach or the slopes isnt bad.

ok I just read all of that and all i can say is we really need to have a process for just going in and indiscriminately just deleting the last four pages.

Other than that I picked up the same stillen headers for $470 shipped, I have some $300 test pipes lined up, and i have some extra throttle bodies I'll be using as cut-outs from there and doing some muffler mods(free). So you can either call that ~50hp for < a stack, or just that I'll have 4G's left to throw into suspension which won't add crap for hp. Oh and I can install all my own parts.

Edit: found the same ss304 test pipes for under $200

Rookie Question
 

I didn't want to start a new thread on this so I figured I piggy back on this thread..
I have a 2009 370z Touring with Sport. I installed the Stillen G3 intake, Stillen HFC and Stillen CBE..Now is an ECU tune absolutely necessary to get the full benefit of these bolt ons?
Man, I'm so freakin confused with this stuff! Yeah, I'm a total rookie! I just got into this modding and man, it's so addicting! I don't know what to do next. Anyway, I hope I didn't piss anyone of you off with my rookieness!

I'm confused also on these cars and been doing this literally for decades so don't let a rookie status be the excuse. Everyone is a rookie in the grand scheme as they're complicated buggers and new to most everyone.

Gonna say yes and no as to do you absolutely need it tuned. Regardless, you're going to see gains, it's just a tune is like shining your shoes. It optimizes basic engine principals like air fuel ratio, engine timing and lets you set your own parameters for things like speed limiter, rev limit, etc.

Problem is the ecu has been a hard nut to crack and the true tuning capabilities is still a black hole. The honest answer is no one really knows.

****
Thank you very much! I appreciate the response. Guess I'll just stand by and continue my education on this.

So how much power did you make with the mods. I got 24.5 RWHP with the cats, exhaust and intake. The intake made 20 rwhp and the cats and the exhaust gave me 4.5 rwhp. I have the cobb tuning .
The headers and pulley are next, but it will not be a stillen pulley.
Please see my post in (intake and Exhaust.
base line 266 rwhp. toal power with mods 290.5 = 25 rwhp !!!!!!!
what a waste of money !!!!!
Can you post your A/F using the cobb when you dynoed the car and compare them with mine.
Thanks
GTM super charger coming soon. (390 rwhp with exsisting modifications).

Believe it or not I'm having a problem locating a decent tuner shop to get a dyno. I live in Brooklyn, NY and all the places I know of are hacks! I'll get back to ya when I find something. A co-worker of mine recommended some shop in NJ, but I forget the name. All the SoCal people are lucky! They have all the cool tuner shops out their! Plus the nice weather!

Boy, that's surprising. There are some really fast east coast cars. They are getting them dynoed somewhere.

Waiting for cooler weather (better air) to make another trip to the dyno to log my fuel/air and compare it to what the Cobb readout says. It would be very informative if a few others did the same.

Also dragging my feet a bit hoping Cobb will finally revise the software so you can make effective changes in the timing. My biggest issue (I think anyway) is the car is pulling out timing and there is nothing I can do about it.

Even worse, have no clue as to why except it appears to be linked to water temps. A new oil cooler installed yesterday is an attempt to see if oil temps play a part.

Here in Cali, if you have a new car, instead of an annual smog check, we have the smog abatement fee. The only problem you would probably have is if you got pulled over and you had to pop your hood for the cop, and once he sees your turbo/SC set up, he may send you to a referee even though you don't have to do smog check for the next 6 years.

Police in CA only make you open your hood if you're a ghetto, sideways-hat wearing wannabe punk driving a tastelessly modified car and/or street-racing. Well...at least in the Bay Area.