After giving the car about ~50 miles or so to settle and re-learn itself, I have to say that the ~3000 rpm area feels great but still might need a little work. Its strong and smooth at WOT, but lower throttle the engine still has a slight hesitance. Its still better than before today's earlier tune, but I think i should give it just a little bit more tuning seat time. Specifically partial throttles between 2000 and 4000 RPMs is where I think it may be running just a tad lean for ecconomy. In this area, I want to see ~14.5:1 up to half throttle, ~14.0:1 from half to 3/4 throttle, and then ~13.75 at WOT from. The lean limit for this will be at 2000 rpm, and I want about .25 richer than 2000rpm at 4000rpm. That should make ~13.5 at 75% throttle at 4,000 rpm. ~13.2 at 100% throttle at 4000 rpm also.


*Warning - A lot of these figures are basically just my personal preference. Dont go and blow yo motor!

Good info. Can't wait to see your results. What were your pre-tune dyno numbers?

Here is my frist-ever dyno done in STOCK form. The dyno is a DynoJet, and is about 12 years old. I call it the "happy" dyno as I always leave there with a smile with all my cars :)

The delta difference is where I'm going to be very keen and interested in knowing, seeing as this dyno sheet is a lot of power in stock form from what most people post.

This dyno had SAE correction enabled. The pull was done on 12/02/2010.

Stock Dyno Results:
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/a...z/IMAG0119.jpg

This morning I did several half and 3/4 throttle pulls from 2-4000 RPMs and was able to determine several small spots needing tuning attention; mainly lean (15:1) spots and mild 'efficiency' pings. I got most throttle possitions above 1/3 throttle at this point to be smooth and around 14.3:1 at the leanest condition. 14:1 average. It feels better; again.

Every time I spend time tuning this engine, it only gets better. Though I expect partial throttle to not be shown on the next dyno sheet, I do have to say the car is a LOT tougher in the ~3000 rpm area, and all areas of thr RPM range feel better.


I might be persuaded to post some of my tuning maps as guides on this thread... I want to have proof with a dynosheet first though. PM me if you want to trade any maps.

I found out two great things tonight. One of which I must place my forehead firmly against the palm of my hand while grinning stupidly. My air-filters are original equipment with original miles on them; they need to be replaced... but instead of pumping any money into replacement filters, my intention is to get a full CAI. Tonight when I checked my stock filters, I found 2 large brown leaves stuck in front of one filter, and one larger brown leave stuck in front of the other! The engine actually sucked them up into the airbox where the stock filters had them likely blocking airflow. I have not much idea how long they were sitting there for... Am glad I found them, but now I gotta do a few more high-RPM pulls to see if my latest street tune is still acurate. I feel like a dummy!!! Yet I'm happy I might get more outa this motor in stock form. I'm thinking even if the leaves were closing off 5% of the possible airflow then there would be a positive result to come from their removal.

The second thing I noticed is really very important. While running hard, the Radio Shack Mini-Amp will 'tweet' when there is pinging, but if it only tweets for the briefest of moments its sort of tough to discern. When there is pinging present, I notice the Cipher trace on the timing maps takes a 1 block step to the left. My best resolve is the ECU is more in tune with itself than I am with the Mini-Amp, for even the slightest degree is noticed by the ECU and not through the amp. Although this could be because I'm only monitoring knock from bank 1, the engine is retarding both scheduled fuel, ignition, and probably throttle to some degree as well. I was able to stabilize the timing trace by adding 1-2 ticks of fuel, and subtracting 1 point of the Timing_Low_Det map. From 6500-7500 RPM my engine likes ~67-68 on the timing maps and 12.3:1 AFR. That gives me +-27 degrees of timing advance.

So, if you are road tuning, it is very important if you see the timing trace step left while running her up, this is likely indicative of engine ping and the ECU is pulling back.

seem like I will have to make that little nice tool to listen at the ping/knock sound !!

that will help to keep my engine in better shape !

as for right now this is what my tune look like
Since my whole intake system/exhaust is modified , I still need to do some work on the MAF table using a test Map and then start really playing with the AFR/timing once again on my main map !

http://www.the370z.com/members/megan...-13feb2011.jpg

How much are you actually hitting at high RPM/load with those AFR targets you set?

BTW, why are your cylinder trims different?

right now the difference between my Wideband and what Cipher read as the AFR are very close to each other now
in stock form the difference between Cipher and the WB was about .5 AFR from mid-high RPM

right now I see a difference of around .2-3

12.5 in Cipher = around 12.7-12.8 AFR on my wideband

My Bank2 run richer than Bank1
Cylinder trim is the fuel adjustment for each one.
the bad part of it , its not mapped like the fuel compensation/ignition timing.

because I ran into a problem during a low load the difference in AFR was not the same then as the load was getting bigger the difference on either Bank was changing.

Megan; yours and my Ignition timing maps are similar. I imagine since you have some mods you were able to get ~71 tuned in at higher rpm. In stock form, I was pinging at 70 so I lowered it to 68. Other than that our numbers are pretty close. Did you try tracing the timing through a gear to see if it steps left as I mentioned in my previous post? -Might be pinging. Yes, the RadioShack Mini-Amp might warn you of ping also.

Interesting read about the stock WB vs your aftermarket sensor. You know you can adjust the WB AF vs Voltage rating in Cipher under Options. You'll notice the data supplied by UpRev is not linear. Since you have a 3rd party AF meter you might as well go ahead and calibrate the stock WB in Cipher.

Very interesting about the injector trim. How do you figure out which injector needed more, and which needed less? Reading spark plugs is all I can think to do. Perhaps using a heat gun on the exhaust manifold could be another test. ~1% is substantial.

I have not played much with the MAF tables. I'll have to do my homework before I do though. From your first post I guess this is more necessary especially since you've changed your MAF, TBs and done some other mods. Are you really hitting 22-23 base scheduled fuel with your mods? Mine is onyl hitting ~20.5 stock.

Good info, guys. Keep up the discussion.

last summer when I only had my modded exhaust and stock intake system.
I was tuned to 75
but few month ago I decided to do a test and my timing was the same with 70-71
so I lowered it
thats give me about 29-30 BTDC from 7000-7500 RPM
again , that depend on what the AFR is reading,
a drop or higher than .2 AFR will give a different timing value during a run.
its like to be in a sweet spot , if you get out , the bonus in timing is ruined by the wrong AFR

I did do some tracing on the timing map but I never think about what you seem to have found out in your previous post.
in the future I will look at it.
because I always tuned by the way the knock sensor feel, if its pull timing , I do some modification in the map to make the knock sensor happy.


I thought about that but I didn't want to screw up something.


I just did an average from B1 to B2 and modified the whole B2
cylinder 1 is higher but I should set it to the 3 or 5 because they are the one receiving more air than the front one.

before any change , B2 was richer
after the change B1 was just a tiny bit leaner , this is why I only gave 1 cylinder to be richer
I'm trying to have both bank having the same fuel/air doing a data log with the MAF V. and WB


to answer your last question ,
yes I do get in the 22 ,, my max was 22.7
I would guess to be touching the 23 once I install back my modded Throttle Body.

I understand. I think I'd try to get a little more specific on precisly which injector needed a boost, and which needed reduction. What you did is probably OK, but what if you lowered one injector in B2 when you should have lowered a different one?

Let me ask since I have not done this yet. If you raise or lower just one injector at a time, does it change how the engine runs at idle? Like, can you tell if the engine gets better or worse? If you can, then you might be able to go through one injector at a time and find the best selection for each.

In my opinion, the injector closest to the firewall which has less airflow and cooling would need more fuel then the ones closer to the radiator fan.

From what I believe ~75 would cause mine to ping at high RPMs. I have a feeling your ECU may have been retarding the timing back to 70-71 levels which is why your timing is just the same between those settings. You are probably running safer now than you were last summer if that is the case.

One thing I want to note, is that if ~75 was working on the Dyno, it might not be working on the street. If that is the case, the argument for getting it tuned on the street is very important.

Also, I notice you have mid to high 70s in your timing map at low to mid throttle. Thats definately and area I should look at some more. I wonder if your fuel economy went up from setting those numbers that aggressivly. For me, I have not gone there yet as I've noticed that anything over ~1/3 throttle runs through the right-most 5-6 bars. Anything left of that is all for cruising and economy.

I didnt feel the engine to run bad or anything by just changing a cylinder at a time
and since I never made the tool to listen at the knock/ping I couldnt do much more than to bring each bank to the same ratio with the MAF V. and AFR

as for going more into details , Im gonna wait till I make that headphone

my tune with the 75 in timing was working alright on the dyno and the street
the ECU was not pulling(retarding) timing or anything , it just didnt want to go any higher than 30-31 BTDC

the result was the same with 70 or 75

last , my fuel economy isnt great because I my tune is quite agressive and ofcourse not finish,,
its hard to street tune in the winter here , slippery, snowing. slushy...

What grade fuel to you have in Canada? I wonder if its any better than what I have here in the US. That could be a factor for more advancement in your timing. We have special (crap) fuel here in Atlanta. Lots of smog so the fuel is laced with O2 and cleaners.

I use Shell 91 V-Power.

but during the winter they add some additive and some brand are worst than others.
its like running on 87octane normal gas.

If the ECU is pulling timing at high RPM when it should not , I'm waiting for the next gas fueling .
I use to travel a lot which helped a lot to burn the bad gas but now its a bit hard , so I'm not rushing the tuning

Well folks,

I just got back from the dyno; boy what an experience indeed. My thoughts and street tune were more off than I ever would have thought. I admit that I must have been fooling with the wrong maps/ideas because my 1st and 2nd run were noticably lower than the stock dyno pull. For the third run, I switched back to the stock base map and the loss became gain; the car returned to stock power for the most part. In all, the tune I've been working with dropped my power by more than 10-20 hp/tq. Not good.

In my disappointment, I must realize the mistake and take this as a learning experiance. Take one for the team so-to-speak. After mulling for a few hours, I've reset my maps back to stock and am anxious to start again from the beginings.

The largest thing I noticed was my ignition timing seems to like to fall flat after about 3 street pulls from 3500rpm upward. Even with the stock/base map and no modifications the first 2 pulls are usually substantially higher in timing than the subsequent pulls. Up to 8 degrees in timing in fact. Although there is a rise/change in oil temp, I didnt think it would account for such a difference in performance? Oil temps are not going above 220.

I think if I figure this timing issue out, tuning this car will get a whole lot easier.

Somehow I forgot that I get 93octane in the deep south. :facepalm:

there is a few possibility that im thinking other than what i said in our PM.
you might be running with to much ignition and&or leaner area which will screw your powerband .

if I'm running to rich (below 12.2afr on a real WB) from what I saw I'm losing a few degree in ignition
but not like it would if the knock sensor feel knock when too much ignition/lean spot.

its to find that sweet spot which will help you !
this is why I think the MAF table should be fine tuned even stock.
thats just to remove a small variable.

Hey guys, I am a lurker, but following along.

Don't think too hard. Remember back when there "wasn't" a good knock sensing device while tuning. (race cars, beaters etc.) You used the dyno to tell you what was going on.

Unclemeaty;
That little lesson you learned about loosing power is worth it's weight in gold.

A quick test, take away two degrees, make a pull. Do this GLOBALLY over the entire map to make it quick. Then add them back and make a pull. Don't forget you have two timing tables that need to be cohesive. Not the same, but cohesive.

That test will give you clues as to where you need timing and where you don't. If you don't loose power, pull 2 more degrees and do another pull.

I don't EVER tune timing on the street. IMO. But we have two dyno's so I can.
UPrev is the way to go.
Wayne

Its been a bit since I last updated, and boy I should have some info for this thread by now. Thanks to forum members, I've now gone about test/tuning a different way. Instead of jumping right to timing and correction maps, I've 'zeroed' ~%75 of the fuel consumption map to 100 points and kept my timing maps stock. I've also now re-callibrated AF target estimates for my stock WB to esentially be a reading lower than actually - I've focused my stock A/F targets with the stock sensors to 12.2:1 instead of 12.6:1 (In turn, the actual AF should probably be closer to 12.6:1). I'm still waiting on a friend to let me borrow his WB AF metter, so for the meantime I've gone with a target of 12.2:1 off the stock sensors. According to upRev, there are more than one style of stock WB sensor, so you best check the calibration for your own setup!

I left the timing map stock, fuel maps to 100, and worked the MAF map. In areas which were lean, I increased the values by the % of difference. I did this by suggestion of a forum member, and basically whatever the actual AF is, divide by the target to get the percentage in change required referenced by MAF voltage. (Taking actual AF and dividing by target AF gives the approx percentage needing change, then change it at the logged MAF voltage). After about ~10 runs of logging and flashing, I've come up with a great base for which the MAF adjustment allows the ECU to come within 97% of the target AF; all with keeping 75% of the fuel correction maps at 100.

The results are great so-far but I dont know if it made any power difference just yet, but I can say that the car was running over and under my target AFs. Its just about aas stable as I can get it for now.

The biggest thing I've found still is that after a few runs, likely the temperatures get too high (oil?) and the ECU starts retarding timing on me, from ~29 degrees advanced to ~24 at peak power. This issue needs some addressing.

Perhaps via an oil-cooler? I've started a new DIY inexpensive oil-cooler thread here, using a Napa/Hayden engine oil-cooler kit. I'm currently still evaluating a purchase for this, but if it works the savings could be substantial over a formal 370z specific aftermarket oil cooler kit.

http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivet...it-anyone.html

Any other thoughts as to why ECU pulls timing after a few runs??

I'm glad that some of my experience with the MAF Table helped you to have a more stable fueling :)
Like I said it wouldn't give you power but just likely to stabilize the AFR curve.

as for the timing getting pull after a few run ,
you said you had 29 BTDC and going down to 24 after a few pull.

you are running stock timing map with probably a richer AFR ?
What come up in my head would be maybe
1= water temp ?
2=oil temp ?
3= quality of gas used ? (different brand aren't the same as we know it)
4= lean spot a little bit before your peak power ? which should be around 6850 rpm (stock)


having a good oil cooler help keeping temp down with those engine ! :)
it is definitely helping !

Timing map is stock right now. I tried a timing map with numbers ~2 points lower and the car still retards after several runs.

1. Water temp is normal
2. Oil temp gets high. Seems higher than 210F and the car starts pulling timng at WOT.
3. Its 93 octane from Shell, laced with 15% ethanol. There is no better mix around, Chevron is more expensive but likely slightly better.
4. Perhaps. I'll have to comb through a few more logs to see, but in all I'd say timing is ~4 degrees retarded from 4500 rpm all the way up to redline.

I'm so close to getting this oil cooler. Since Summit is within 50 miles, Napa will likely price match.

I wouldnt worry about the timing getting pull from 4500-5500
I also tried many thing in that area but the timing always went down

thats probably an hidden map somewhere when the VVEL start going up at 4800rpm the timing goes down a little bit.

the only way I saw to not have the timing being pulled is when I run with a low timing value before 4500rpm , but that result give less power.

Im still waiting on the part for my Knock listening device to go deeper into that possible problem. if the ECU feel or not a knock/ping in that area

I wish I had a dyno eveytime I go out to do some street tuning
but I dont and doesnt have the money for it ! :(

a nice way to be prepared for a dyno tuning is to bring the tune stable on the street and then get on the dyno to actualy fine-tune to make the power with more or less timing/afr

doing street tuning I was able to even get more power out from the previous dyno tune.
with some experience with the dyno and doing a street tuning properly can give a good result
but it can be a long process !!

Have you ever looked into getting a Vbox to help with street tuning?

with the datalog that come with Uprev , I doubt I would need the Vbox

in what way could it help me ?

This halfway off topic but I meant to show you guys this is how I work on my maps.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_4...2009.27.57.jpg

I would like to have something like that ! but having the small OEM Nav screen
I doubt the resolution would be any good :(

what are you using as a PC ?

I got a Barebone Nettop from tiger direct for $110 and had a lot of computer parts laying around.

Did you guys see the new updates for RomEditor? Theres some new timing maps concerning timing and engine knock. Just update the UpRev software from your computer and you'll see. The new maps are Timing_Low_Det_Knock_Window and are pretty simple boolean style graphs. Im not 100% sure what they do other than the obvious - enable/disable the areas which are monitored for knock.

The stock map is not monitoring engine knock on the last three rows. This is interesting because if you've gone and changed your scale (default peak is 7200 rpm) then your knock window may need slight attention. Also, if you are concerned with your engine possibly knocking at those RPMs then you can probably turn on knock protection. ESPECIALLY for Forced induction modifiers; on the Timing_High_Det_Knock_Window map!

Also, in terms of engine performance vs oil temperature, theres a setting in DTC: PO196 - Engine Oil temperature Sensor Range/Performance. Im thinking I would like to try turning that one off - JUST TEMPORARILLY - to see if my engine stops retarding timing after several pulls. I realize the danger in not reducing engine power with higher oil temps, but I just wanted to test this out since I lose timing at ~220 degree oil temp. Thoughts?

I'm not saying to try this, but I've heard some Aftermarket audio head units run on Windows CE. If that is the case, they likely have USB and a harddrive for installing software. Someone should try UpRev on them if interested.

It could give you real world performance numbers without having to go to the dyno.

"I wouldnt worry about the timing getting pull from 4500-5500
I also tried many thing in that area but the timing always went down

thats probably an hidden map somewhere when the VVEL start going up at 4800rpm the timing goes down a little bit."

I agree that there are more parameters not available for modification.



I have a question. You have two timing maps. IMO there is probably a setting that starts using more of the lower octane map when high oil temp is reached.
How far apart are your timing maps? Are they in sync with each other? In Mitsubishi software you can actually see the logged parameter % of lower octane fuel/timing maps it is using.

I am un-aware that you can monitor that in the Uprev software at this point, but hopefully in the future. :)

How about this; if you drive your car at 220 oil temps, then maybe "tune" your car at 220f temps, or why not just tune your car at normal temps and let the computer run less timing like the engineers decided was best?

If you tune on the street, you need to make sure before every single pull/ run or whatever, that your temps are ALL the same. It's a science; keep all the variables the same while testing, make one change at a time.

Anyway, just remember to have fun!

Wayne

my High Det and Low Det are quite apart from each other right now ,, for the simple reason that if the ECU is pulling timing , I will know it pretty much as soon as its happening.

there isn't a setting that I know about running a lower octane map with high temp is reached. maybe in the future.



right now I do not have much choice on the outside temp. its winter here :(
but yeah don't worry about that , I do try to keep my temp equal every time I do a pull.
but since I know where the limit are from my tuning experience from last summer ,, I'm not trying to go farther because that will probably wont give any power

My next dyno tune is probably at the end of March or sometime in mid-April.

Back at it again over here. Since my last post, one of the later UpRev software updates has removed the Timeing_Det_Knock_Window maps out of the ignition tables. No big deal for me though as i wasnt about to touch them.

Then I notice another new section called SETTINGS, and a control for "ETC Control". Either its for Throttle or Torque control, or conjoinment of both. Its ON by default. Setting it to OFF does some good and bad. Positive; I notice better/linear throttle response from turning it off is which is a decent advantage. The negatives are that it disables cruise control AND throttle rev/matching for sport models. I'll leave this setting ON because I like those features of the car.

Looks like theres a new firmware update. SOOO many changes I wish these guys included changelogs with their updates.

hi,

I am searching to understand Timing Advance in uprev.
To avoid unnecessary reply, I know that if you will tune TA you need dyno and a knock monitor device. Than you may increase TA until power drop or knock listening...

Now:

1) what measures BTDC TA in Chiper logs?
Milliseconds or Degrees or something else??
If "something else", anyone known what is?

2) what measures Time for Max pressure in ROM Editor Maps?
Milliseconds or Degrees or something else??
If "something else", anyone known what is?

I know that Nissan assumes Max Pressure 12-15 Degrees After Top Dead Centre, so it is simple (I think) convert BTDC to Time to Reach Max Pressure....
...but now, I don't know the units of these parameters....

Thanks

Holy dig! I take it you have not seen any responses in the UPREV forum. I posted there and got nothing. You may want to contact on of the forum sponsor shops and bounce some ideas off of them. GTM, Forged, Z1, and Specialty Z are pretty regular posters on this site, so a PM should be answered with decent speed. You could always call them though!

I would give an answer. but I haven't played with the software at all.