The good and bad of R comps at the track
 

After taking a few months off from the track, I made a trek back to it this past weekend. Unlike my previous trips, I decided to drag my autox tires along, the 295/40/18 Hoosier A6 to compare to my 285/35/18 Hankook R-S3. I was able to carry the tires by using my utility trailer.

The first two sessions of the day, I was driving on the R-S3 and I was about .5 sec off my personal best. Even though I found the Fortune Auto to not be stiff enough, I do have to say the adjustments knob on it do make a huge difference. One click can have a dramatic difference in how the car handles.

While I was still on the fence about the A6s before the second session, I decided to put them on after experiencing some brake fade near the end of my second session. I figured it was safer to bleed the brakes and change the tires at the same time. As my luck would have it, a 911 spun into the kitty litter and shorten my third session by 70%. Despite only getting two laps, my first lap I shattered my personal best by 2+ sec. This was with no experience in how to setup the tires or the suspension. As I ended the third session, I had high hopes for the fourth one as I really wanted to squeeze another .5 seconds out the tires. Unfortunately, an EVO caught fire and I was only able to do my fourth session two hours after. In my fourth session, I was only able to make small gains on my times as the A6s are so big that it dug through my fender liner. As the tires were getting compressed in hard turns, the sidewall on the tire was cut by the inside of the fender. With the tires in danger, I had no choice but to back off. Even before the tire going down, I was stuck in traffic when the tires were at the prime. I had used up so much of the brakes and car to clear some of the morons. I ended up only gaining a tenth or two from my third session.

Despite the issues, the A6s felt awesome at the track. They cover up all the problems with handling on the car. It also gave me so much confidence to drive too as the tires were so grippy. Instead of being slower than other cars in the corner, I was able to pass people at will with the A6 on the car. Based on my memory, I was reading average peak G was around 1.2 with the R-S3 while the A6s were doing 1.5 with more room to go.

Now here is the bad part. Before I could go home, I had to unmount everything in the hot sun to get everything loaded and back home. The entire process took about an hour and it killed my back and gave me sunburn for nearly 2 days. So before you decide on purchasing slicks next time, you might want to think about how much work you want to put into swapping tires.

I feel your pain. I used to trailer my R6’s to the track and swap them in the morning. There is nothing that ruins a track weekend by starting off sweaty and dirty and ending by being the last guy in the paddock swapping hot and filthy race tires before the drive home.

I finally broke down and now run Nitto NT01’s. They are not as fast as Hoosiers but at least I can drive them to and from the track.

I had those A6s, figure might as well use it up. Yes swapping tires suck, they are way too heavy and it's just way too hot. For next time, I am buying one of those portable tents. No way I am doing it under the hot sun again. That was two hours of lifting for less than 10 laps, also destroyed my fender liner and one A6 in that time frame too argggg.

Oh yeah I got some bonus laps at the end with the R-S3. Let's just say there is no going back after driving on the A6.

How low is your current setup on the Fortune's? What are your plans in fixing the suspension so you do not eat your liners and cut the tire on the fender?

I am still trying to dial mine in as well.

Slicks are fun ain't they. :D Now what's your next step. Trailering the Z back and forth? :stirthepot:

:) I know the feeling. After last weekend, I'm starting to seriously wonder how hard it would be to convert over to center-lock hubs (I don't think anyone even makes them for our car yet?) and install a set of air jacks in the car, but whatever all that would cost, I need that for other car upgrades that matter when it's actually running!

I have been looking at the Fortune Auto 510's with custom spring rates of 14k/11k.
How do you like the Fortune's?
My current set up is Swift R 10/10 an Nismo shocks.

Is there anyway you could drive to the track with R6s on (assuming dry sunny weather of course)? My nearest track is about 15 miles away. They are technically DOT legal, correct?

Forgeline wheels. I almost got them when I got my wheels.

Forgeline: Center Lock Wheels and Center Lock Conversion

Not sure, maybe an inch lower than stock? I have to remove the mud flaps to clear a lot of things.

My fix is to buy a smaller new pair of A6 for the front, I will keep my new rears.

I have had slicks for a long time, just not at the track and I don't usually do back to back comparison.

I think it is worth it

I honestly don't remember what I got, but I believe you can go even higher on the springs. They are not bad, but I am not going to say they are perfect. There are some weird quality control issues, but what are my other options at this price range right?

You could risk your $1200 R6 driving to the track. Just remember every mile you drive, you start to lose grip from the Hoosiers.

So 2k for hubs, $1500 per wheel? Deal :ugh2:

I've decided on stance comp 2's. I want true's and it's the only thing affordable. FA won't make true's, Odi at feal has good report but I want a two way, 18k/7k should be a good place to start.

I think (from what I gathered there) that those are some kind of bolt-on adapters. Kinda like a spacer, that bolts into your lug holes and the provides the center-lock. Ideally for a race car, you'd actually replace the hub/bearing itself with a unit that was natively a single center lug (and then you'd need completely different brake rotor hats and wheels than stock). At least, luckily the hub/bearing thing on our car is separate from the arm it bolts to, so it wouldn't be too horrible to get this done.

Yep, a $2000 spacer

What do you mean FA won't make true's? I thought that the 510's were true type and the 500's were OEM style. I was confused by this because when I ordered I thought the 500's were true type as well when you look at their product page.

Nope.

The question was asked. I answered it. ;)

And the Porsche guys pay big money to switch back to lugs............

Anyways, this is the other half of the ez-mode solution: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=6208 . There are other vendors and options you could go with, but I'm sure the basic tradeoffs don't vary a ton:

Cons:
$3K down the drain
Adds 22.5 lbs to the car (mostly way down low)
Have to add a high pressure air tank to your track gear

Pros:
Connect hose, flip valve, car pops up off the ground enough to change all four wheels.

Don't forget, more traction means more strain put thru the suspension too.

Look for increased wear on wheel bearings, susp bushings, and the like.

How does it take you that long to change tires? :) I can swap wheels in 15 minutes or less with a decent floor jack and an electric impact.

I am slow, it takes me an hour. I hate the stupid aftermarket lug nuts.

This is a chart, roughly showing how much more grip the A6 has. I dont know if it is the gearing, but the car seems to be slightly slower down the straight with the slicks. It could be temp too

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/822/5vp4.jpg

Could be that when you're headed down a straight at high speed (and thus don't really need any real grip for accel in any direction), the extra surface area and grip is just more "rolling resistance" of a sort.

The hub noses Brian made for my car are awesome. Then we used longer studs. Makes changing wheels very easy. Good electric impact wrench and wheels go on and off very quickly.

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0l.../IMAGE_198.jpg

Agreed, you only need air-jacks and single-nut fixings if you are into enduro's at a professional level OR you want the bling.

I have used lug-nuts and a quick-lift hydraulic jack (6 pumps to lift 450mm) for 40 years in state and national-level competition without any issues. In the old days, we used to carry a bottle of compressed air and use a rattle-gun, but the 18V electric rattle guns are brilliant these days.

The only time it takes more than 10-15 minutes to change wheels is if I need to change pads at the same time, and that is now extremely rare.

Yep nice race jack and high quality electric impact wrench. Two pumps car is up and bam bam bam bam bam bam wheel is off. Did it for couple years before my trailer. I could change tires by myself in less than 10 minutes.

And I will comment that one is under driving a6 if mistakes are being covered up. They are quite forgiving under limit. Things get more interesting at limit and mistakes take on a new meaning as your moving much faster. Streets just allow you to recover from mistakes a little easier ...A6 not so much

:shakes head: I'm jealous.




:tup:

Those hubs do look pretty sweet!

Do you guys impact your lugs back on as well? I spend way more time putting wheels on than taking them off, and I suspect that's because I'm pointlessly wasting time on things that don't matter as much as I think they do. I sit there and hand-turn the lugs down to initial snug and ensure the wheel is flat and the cone seats are centered first. Then I do a star-pattern with a regular wrench and ballpark them to ~40-50 by hand, then go back over it again with a handheld torque wrench to 85.

Then again I've seen trackside shops toss a wheel on a car and use an electric impact. They put all 5 on straight to final torque one by one and they're done, and I guess they assume everything will seat itself given sufficient torque. I can hear clicks like an automatic torque limiter, but I don't know if that's in the gun or in some socket-adapter? When I try googling, I never turn up much except those solid torque-limiting extension sticks, which I'm guessing just flex when they reach their limit.

Wheel goes on, hand-start the lug-nuts to ensure they are not crossed (I use ARP extended studs as they have the first 15mm machined to make it all but impossible to cross-thread) and then rattle first one fully home, make sure wheel is properly seated, then rattle the rest home with the electric rattle-gun - my gun rattles to ~70 ft/lb on first hit - if I let it blaze away, it will get to 85-90, so I stop on first hit to avoid over-tightening with the gun.

Drop the car onto its wheels and torque to specification, tools in the bag, tool-bag and wheels in trailer, latch down, hitch trailer, gear bag in trunk and drive off. Sum total ~15 minutes, less if my buddy is along to help (in which case he drives the ute (short for utility) and it is an even quicker process).

For those who don;t understand the Aussie ute - it is a bit like the old Chev C10 truck except it is more of a car front half with style-side rear box and lid to take all the gear. They drive just like a car .... example here ... Ford Australia - Ford Falcon or Holden Ute - Safety - 2014 - Australia

wstar, I went back to my data. It does seem like the likely cause was the air temp being 10F + cooler in the first session than the rest of the day. It was simply the engine making more power, also it did appear I had a great run onto the straight. The larger tire did hurt my acceleration off the slow hairpin due to the gearing I got from the bigger diameter. Still, it's just a combination of everything.

I agree longer studs will help, half the time is spent trying to put the hot lug nuts back on the tiny little holes for the lug nuts. I really miss the OEM lug nuts

yeah idk why anyone here wants to run centerlocks?

I've seen people make longer trips than that on DOT slicks, but it may or may not be a great idea depending on your route, situation, and risk tolerance.

As you said, dry warm weather is of course a must. Also keep in mind though that Hoosiers are much less robust than street tires. Debris that a street tire would shrug off could cause a puncture on an R6. They're made that way on purpose to be as light as possible.

Other things to consider: need to run higher cold pressure than you would at the track. You'll pick up and spit out all kinds of dirt and rocks that street tires wouldn't. Lower traction on any kind of dirt / gravel patches.

Baisically, if you're super careful and the roads are in good condition with no threat of rain, you should be ok.

Here's Hoosier's take on it (cover their butts for liability): NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE: All Hoosier Racing Tires including DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires are designed for racing purposes only on specified racing surfaces and are not to be operated on public roadways. DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires meet Department Of Transportation requirements for marking and performance only and are NOT INTENDED FOR HIGHWAY USE. It is unsafe to operate any Hoosier Racing Tire including DOT tires on public roads. The prohibited use of Hoosier Racing Tires on public roadways may result in loss of traction, unexpected loss of vehicle control, or sudden loss of tire pressure, resulting in a vehicle crash and SERIOUS PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH. Exception-"PRO STREET"

Also read this: http://www.tirerack.com/images/pdf/warranty/HOOSIER.pdf

Single-nut hubs and airjacks start sounding appealing when you're trying to swap 4 wheels in the paddock and it's 95 outside and you're soaked in sweat and exhausted from a hard session :) But, yeah, not worth the cost and customization for the single-nut, and not worth the cost or weight for the airjack system for DEs.

This thread has really made me review my tools and methods for changing wheels at the track, though. Lots of little things, like:

1) Using my low-profile jack sucks. It's actually pretty huge, and heavy, and it lifts slow. It's one of the normal ones you find at parts stores, and I have to first reach under and fit a little adapter onto the pinch weld. I should look at spending on a proper racing jack, and maybe welding some little flat plates under the car along that pinch-weld area and marking them with arrows on the rocker panel so I can just shove the jack under and pump 3 times and be done.

2) I'm going to start using a cordless impact to reinstall lugs, too. I picked up a 65 ft-lb torque extension stick ( this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-75520 ) just to keep me from being stupid while fatigued and ease my transition from being anal about these things, and then I'll finish with a quick hit with the real torque wrench for final tightening.

3) I've been using those little tuner-style open-ended nuts with the silly socket adapters which slows me down too, so I'm going to switch over to plain-jane bulge-cone-seat open nuts with 17mm hex on the end of them (this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gor-30027 ). I think I can fit a regular 17mm deep socket into the holes in my Forgestars.

The stupid aftermarket lug key is a big waste of time. I hate those piece of poop

The harbor freight jack for 68 works great

failure rate is exponentially higher with centerlocks. i've seen a gt3 lose a wheel on the road. there's a reason porsche guys convert to 5 lug setups.

Well, maybe Porsche's stuff they put on streetcars, but F1 cars, LMP cars, Indycars, etc seem to get by fine with a single nut. The design could be very different; I have no idea what Porsche does.

Now you're just trolling :P

That is awesome. I want a set. :P

We know all about utes here and we're jealous. :P Well... most of us anyway.


I have been pretty happy with my harbor freight 3ton steel jack. It's a bit bulky but not terrible and it goes up pretty quick. I never bother with checking the pinch welds or using an adapter. I just try to center the jack on them and lift. Haven't bent one on the Zs yet.

I'm not so much worried about bending the weld, I'm more worried about the big square head of the jack crushing into other unrelated things (like the rocker panel or the stuff to the inside underneath, etc). The pinch weld just isn't the lowest point, and its channel is kind of narrow.