its funny because im not the only one who found the Z had less power when the oil was at 240F which is below of your 250 :shakes head:

I think it was Travisjb and pretty sure there was also another guy certifying this too.


Like you said, you car must be setup differently than ours, you might be right or Nissan gave you an awesome indestructible Z !! lucky you :tiphat:

I would like to challenge any of you who have done over 10 track events to tear down your motors and show us your rod bearings. Talking to those who build VQ race motors it's known that the lack of lead content in bearings starts to break down with oil temps above 240. We also know stock oil pan allows oil starve when cars are generating high Gs at high RPMs.

I was very easy on my motor no track events over stock redline and only ran a couple autocrosses with 8000 rpm redline and my rod bearings were shot. That's with a aM performance pan and big oil cooler. My motor felt great too but feeling great and causing real damage to rod bearings aren't too far apart.

im sure my rod bearings are not in the best shape, from both tracking and the fact i have 65k miles, but i do what i can to keep things under 240. Its actually that our bearings have NO lead content since nissan stopped doing that since like 2000, the lead content helped for a more ridig bearing, the bearings we have NOW are more so soft and get even softer at 250+, my close friends (one of which is a mechanical engineer and has alot of Nissan race experience, and my other friend builds Nissan race engines) both tell me do what i can to stay under 250 oil temp. So yeah, im sure things arent all rainbows and cheese inside my motor, i think ill prolly have a rebuild done after this year, just check everything out and fresh/better engine bearings

You are so right. I just found the dyno sheet showed I made 3 HP less on my third run compare to the first one, except I should mention car was already over 220F oil temp from the first run since the guy had to make 4 runs prior to the official runs to get the RPM readings correct. The three runs were also done within a matter of a minute if you see the time stamp. Oh yeah, maybe the AFM has nothing to do with it. Three hard pulls in 4th gear from a stationary position must do wonder for the AFM too. As Clint said, the car is basically 220F as soon as you start driving on track. So maybe we all have a lemon that doesn't make full power on track.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...90/10/l93e.jpg

I am sure my motor isn't as good as it was new. At the same time the car made enough power after 500+ autox runs (2.5 years), 25-40 track days (don't remember exactly) on the dyno. I am not going to worry or complain about it. Oh yeah it made 84% of the rated power with a bad clutch too, I will take that anyday at 29K miles. Similarly, my old 350 didn't have any noticeable power drop at 49K miles either (yes had dyno done too).

OHHH SORRY I MADE A MISTAKE
COSSIE 16 00 will you forgive me my dearly god !;)
you see I'm not afraid to mention it when I'm wrong not like some peoples ! I don't have that ego.


its not oil temp but water temp ! its been a while (3 years)I didn't talk about that subject somehow when I mentioned previously in this thread I was sure it was about the oil..... oups..... my bad

now if you want to argue on this, believe what you want !
but there was a reason why I wrote those temp on the sheet

Water temp makes more sense yes. Oil temp I don't see it

Oh ok well at 220 degrees water I'm glad the car pulls power lol

I've been fine so far (cross fingers), and I definitely beat my engine up mercilessly mid-corner. Just good cooling (rarely cross the 220 oil temp mark these days - sometimes 225, but I can't even remember the last time it hit 230) + the AMPerf baffled pan. I also keep my redline down: in UpRev I have my soft limit at 7450 and my fuel cut at 7600. It's not worth the reduced engine life to me to try to squeeze an extra few-hundred revs out of it.

I'd love to rebuild the engine with stronger internals, better bearings, and a dry sump. But for that kind of money, I'd rather drop in a cheap and well-prepped LS1 conversion, since there's no rules prohibiting me from going down that road. For now I'll keep trucking on what I've got until it blows up and triggers the LS1 process :)

8000 rpm in engine with a wet oil system is about tops. At that point you are heading into dry sump system $$$. Oil capacity, how fast the oil returns to the oil pick, pan baffles and how good your crank scraper is comes into play with a good wet system. There is a cohesion effect from the oil whipping around the crankshaft when it rotates at those speeds and keeps the oil suspended in motion. A good crank scraper is a must.
The Accusump has been around for as long as I can remember and I'll be 60 this year, The poor mans dry sump it was called. But it's good cheap insurance.

ill stick to shifting between 7300 and 7500

Typo on my part. "Lack" of lead content. The newer environmentally friendly bearings from Nissan haven't done well with higher oil temps. Issues in GTR motors as well.

As long as you guys are ok with shortening life of a motor that should last 200k miles. I'd do all I could to assure temps are kept below 240.

I knew I was going to rebuild my motor so had some fun with raising RPMs to 8000 at a couple events about 20 minutes running with that redline. Pretty clear to me you want to keep revs and oil temps as low as possible on stock internals VQ. I have pics to prove what happens and my motor only had 15k miles mostly street miles. Based on my experience I just wouldn't be cocky about running 250 oil temps and would be looking for more cooling to extend your enjoyment of the stock motor.

Having been long term air cooled Porsche guy this was only oiling solution I was comfortable with my VQ track car build.

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Z8.../IMAGE_113.jpg

:yum: Show off! :yum:

Hey what can I say! I love showing off other peoples great work! JWT is all over this and really have come up with incredibe setup. Its amazing all the little specially engineered tricks that they have used to make all this come together. One critieria I had early on was to dry sump this motor. And its been interesting learning expereince to see what has to be done. Brian at Valykyrie knows it all now too! He has seen all tricks that need to be done to turn these motors into reliable track power plants. JWT is an invaluable resource in building this motor for us and to push traditional VQ limits as this is high compression stoker that hasnt been seen on track circles yet! Brian and I are now working on how we will keep this beast cool. I spec'd ethonol fuel as one strategy to keep top end temps lower but we are looking at massive oil cooling strategy. Start with very large air to oil cooler but may use suplemental water to oil cooler as well.

Im a guy that likes to over engineer cooling as hot motors are a real drag. ...literally.

Just pullin' your leg. :icon17: Need someone to leave me a large sum of money, or I find a large bag of money before I could do this. :shakes head:

Well you know what they say either you can pay now or really pay later. The drysump is one of those preventative steps that should save rebuild costs in future for a track car. So spend a few thousand on sump or rebuild motor more often. I saw how long the non dry sumped grand am motors were lasting. ...cough.

I also popped for the air oil separator as well. Im a sucker for youtube video marketing.

Dailey Engineering Air Separator vs Competitor Without Separator - YouTube

im installing a prototype radiator next week that im going to be testing out in a couple weekends, if that keeps water temp completely under control, but oil temps are still on the high side, ill revist my oil cooler setup. Possibly a second core is in order

That is very sweet looking:yum:

All I can say is WOW! to that video. I think that would make most bite on their product over another or convince you to add the air/oil separator to tha package at a minimum.

oil starvation problem?
 

I got roughly total of 45 track days combined with tune attacks and hpde last two years w 35k miles. Ran stock radiator and 34 row setrab for that long. 34 row oil cooler and stock rad aren't to the task for cooling. Now finishing my SC build went all out on cooling. 1 34 row on passenger side and 1 25 row plus spal fan on drivers side (might upgrade later to a 34 if needed) then got the gtm oil baffled pan, 70mm radiator and high output spal fans (beast). I'm at over 10 quarts of oil

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/16/ypuruvyv.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/16/4ugydy2y.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/16/u6etu7yd.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/16/nenege3y.jpg

Forgot to mention accusump is also on my list to do eventually

I've got 22500 miles on my 09. all but 4000 of that is track. I have a 34row cooler and a CSF Radiator and the engine is rock solid. Also, I do 90% of my upshifting at 78-8200 rpm. Maybe I'm just waiting/asking for an engine failure, but everything has been fine for the last 4 years.

Curious: with the longer oil travel (additional oil cooler and lines), do you need a stronger oil pump to compensate for potential loss of oil pressure, or stock pump is up to the task? I won't ever need this, just want to know if this is a concern at all.

Only way to know is oil pressure on track but don't think it will be a problem.

once the engine is started and the normal oil pressure is built up, the distance of travel is pretty much irrelevant. Hydraulic pressure is a constant across an entire system.

Cool, thanks

I hate doing this and since my hydraulic course was taken years ago, I will try to make it short.

there is in fact an hydraulic pressure loss/gain in any hydraulic system
the pump & regulator/restrictor has to work together to maintain a certain level of pressure it was set. If you add an oil cooler for example you are adding restriction to the system which will raise the pressure and other adverse effect.

The pump isn't making the pressure but pumping the oil, pressure is made by the effect of restriction.
so to answer the guy asking if the stock oil pump is enough,,, I would say yes but the restrictor could potentially be adjusted if it was possible.


one last thing; this is why there was more pressure showing on the pressure gauge on my old 350z after adding an oil cooler higher than it use to. but its not enough to greatly affect the engine.

My gut feeling (and I have no idea the relative restriction change from either one) was to switch to a larger oil filter to reduce some restriction to offset the cooler a bit (e.g. K&N HP-1010).

probably more right than I, its probably been longer since my courses, but it should be a negligible amount.

I think part of the trick in sizing an oil cooler setup is to get the pressure to behave like stock. If you see a PSI increase after installing an oil cooler you know it is restricting and if you see a PSI decrease you know it is oversized.
If you have the ability to increase PSI, like shimming the oil pump, you can go oversized and still get back to the stock PSI.

^ Would it even be possible for the mere installation of an oil cooler to actually drop the PSI? I'd think (well, assuming we're talking equal oil temps in both cases) that it can't have negative restriction and thus can't do that, right? Or do you mean with the new difference in temperatures taken into account as well?

EDIT: hmm, even then, colder oil would be higher PSI, not lower. What am I missing here?

Hi rpm oil starvation with stock tires?

I have read this entire, very informative thread. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I don’t plan to track my stock 370z 7AT, but members here with track experience certainly have knowledge to share that could help save my engine.

There are many opportunities to corner at the traction limit of the stock street tires on the twisty roads of East Texas. Using the paddle shifters makes it easy to keep the rpm in the meat of the power band, 4500-7000. Are the stock oil pan and oil pickup sufficient to keep oil flowing without oil starvation under these conditions? If not, would an oil pan spacer be enough to keep oil covering the pickup?

I am assuming that you kept the rpm up near 8000 during the tank slapper and spin. Is that true?

im sure I did mentionned somewhere about this but yes the engine was still relatively high RPM during that small amount of time the engine was in the oposite direction and the probable event is that most of the oil was pushed toward the back of the engine.