what's the best way to gain performance driving skill for a beginner?
 

what's the way to gain track skills and experience for a complete beginner with zero experience? plain old open lapping? or open lapping with instruction? or rather first taking some advanced driving courses though these tend to be pretty expensive!? how did the experienced track drivers here start off?

Steroids or HGH.

Just practice, but you also have to make sure you are learning from the right people. Tracking for 15 years or have a race car doesn't make you fast.

very simple... nasa, scca or other local club... search for "drivers education" or "HPDE" and go do it

To quote a clown: "Lol"

ya know, alot of people surprisingly begin in cart racing, learning lines/braking points, etc. And its a relatively cheap practice.

Auto-X, without question - the best place to start.

Once you understand feeling real G's move up to HPDE's then full on track days with passing anywhere.

Cheap?? I guess that IS relative to the person's piggy bank. Been there, still do it. But, you are right if you are comparing it to the world of racing in general.

Racing simulation on video games it's a good start. Forza3 on XBOX360, Or Grand Tourismo Prolog on PS3.

They will give you a good idea of racing lines Or the fastest way around a race track. and you mite be lucky and find a track that's close to you, So you can practice on it.

One other thing you will need an engine oil cooler if your going to track your car.

Autox should be your first stop....

It is VERY inexpensive to start, bring your car, add air to your tires, pay your $40 entry fee and begin to learn basic car control while being able to safely push the car to and beyond it's limits...

From there, then look at some drivers schools (with instruction), HPDE, etc as mentioned....

A paraphrase from way back goes something like....a good autoxer makes a good road racer, but a good road racer doesn't necessarily make a good autoxer....or something along that line...

I think the bottom line here is in Autox, you can more easily learn all aspects of car control, choosing lines, setup basics, etc....that is much more difficult to do on the track.

my $.02

let me rephrase it, cheaper than full size race car race instruction.

I use computer sim a lot, iracing is a good start.

Autox helps, but it doesn't help that much. It is two different activity.

I wholeheartedly disagree.......

Computer sims, 'iracing', doesn't do anything but teach you lines and basic physics. There is no substitution for seat time and feeling real Gs and how the car behaves PAST it's limit.

Try doing that on a track as a novice and you'll end up without a ride very quickly. Or you auto-x for awhile, then get on a big track. So when you get loose for the first time on the big track @ 90+mph you know how to handle the car - THANKS to Auto-X.

I speak from experience. I did an HPDE after I had one auto-x experince. I simply did not have a good enough feeling of the car to push it past 7/10 on the track. I was scared to wreck it. I've played sims all my life, and the didn't prepare me for Gs. Sure, I knew all the basics of weight transfer, grip circle, lines, etc. But I can't stress it enough, until you FEEL them in a car, it is very different.

Fast forward to this year after I've had a lot more auto-x experience and I'm fully confident on a track. Driving 10/10's and having a blast.

It may be two different activities, but G's are G's, and car control is car control. There is no substitute for seat time, period. I can push my car much harder now, if I tried to learn it all on a 'big track' I would have spent a ton more money and time building confidence in the car and the limits. I got much faster, much more experienced, and a much better road race driver thanks to Auto-X since all I had to worry about when I pushed to far was hitting a cone. I didn't have to worry about those concrete barriers. Sims don't help with that either.

And pgrmst has is right on:
"a good autoxer makes a great road racer, but a good road racer doesn't necessarily make a good autoxer"

or another one I like:

"Drag Racing is for Fast Cars - AutoCross is for Fast Drivers"

I think there is a place for AutoX and that is to learn how weight transfer affects the balance of your car. Teaches you patience and precision up to a certain point. That is all it does though. Auto-X can be fun, but it is very rough and very different than a real road course. You can always tell who the auto-x'ers are on the track because they make sudden jerky steering inputs and brake inputs. As anyone who has been on a track will tell you, those are both nono's.

If you want to get some experience there is a good path in my opinion. The first thing you do is take a High Performance Driving Class or as its called in some places, a high performance accident avoidance course. They will teach you the basics about breaking and accelerating as well as allow you to safely test the limits of your car. This will also give you a feel for understeer and oversteer and will help you start to get accustomed to responding to it.

After you do that, go to MotorsportReg.com : Online registration management tools for driving and social events and find out which events are going on near you. Sign up for a one day HPDE (High performance driving education) and go to that. They will have an instructor ride along with you in the car and they will teach you everything you need to know.

Fixed it. ;) You have to watch out for those that don't know any better. Personally, I've never met an auto-x driver that is jerking the car around @ speed. They shouldn't be on a track if they don't know any better.

Jerky inputs are also a no-no for auto-x. Inexperienced drivers may feel that jerky inputs are faster (you may feel a higher initial G spike, but the jerky inputs will bring you average G holding down vs. smooth inputs). I used to do the same - but never on a track.

That is one of the first things an advanced course such as EVO school will teach you.

But that is also why some Auto-X'er never get beyond mediocre drivers, and watch out if you are seeing these drivers try to bring that to the track, which like you say is a no no. They must not know any better.

But not all auto-x drivers have bad track habits. Thanks to Auto-X, road tracks feel like slow motion to me because I'm used to the faster pace of Auto-X.

I certainly disagree with you as Gs are only a part of what you need to drive a car fast. I don't know how much experience you have in sims, but a good sim can show you the limit of the vehicles by making tire noise or by giving you feedback based on the steering or throttle response you put in.

I've been autox for 10+ years and I have participated in the nationals, the only thing autox teaches me is car control. When I am out on the track, I take a completely different approach as there is the speed factor, the $$ factor and lines are somewhat different too. In autox, you might take the line with the shortest distance vs the higher speed.

I also disagree with you regarding the autox guys are fast at track because many of them can't control a car past 70mph. Also with their kamikaze style, they are going to have a tough time going fast at twice the speed.

YouTube - Tom driving the 370z
YouTube - 0407 350Z HotLap Session 3B with Traffic Shenandoah

To the OP
 

Here's what I did:

http://www.the370z.com/north-west-re...e-area-28.html

Thats what I was trying to say and Cossie put it into words better than I can. We can all agree that they are two completely different driving styles, just like rallying is completely different, right? I don't think you can argue that. The "kamikaze style" as Cossie calls it is the feeling I get. Even the most experienced auto-x'ers who win all the time, violently toss their cars in and out of corners. Its full attack, fast left rights and tight corners through the slaloms and hairpins. That is very different than the smooth, flowing and high speed world of road courses.

I'm not saying one is less than the other, I'm just saying they are different driving styles. If you were to drive the autox track like a big track and vice versa then you would not be very good. No matter how good you are at auto-x, even if you are national champion, if that is the driving style you've learned, then that's what you're gonna want to do on the track and it simply will not end well at 100+mph.

It is a good bit safer to auto-x first and then take it to a road track...I think that is the right progression...

Seat time.

anyone notice that we are almost at 20 posts of giving the OP feedback / debating with each other and he/she is nowhere to be found! lol

I agree with:

- seat time
- autocross, DE, drivers schools... all fine places to start
- autocross is perhaps the best for reasons stated, but nothing wrong with jumping into a few DEs early on as well... mix it up!
- video games have limited utility, but I think can be a nice supplement to someone that has ALREADY LEARNED to drive properly on the track in real life... otherwise more likely to reinforce bad habits

video game is different than simulation.

Here's what I did, at Le Circuit Mont Tremblant

Racing School :: Corporate Entertainment :: Jim Russell Racing Drivers School :: Racing School and Driving Instruction :: Jim Russell Racing Drivers School

Back when I went, it was Formula Ford

http://www.johnnyoconnell.com/images..._vandiemen.jpg

i realize that 'video game' can be derogatory to a serious 'simulation' and i'm a user / fan of both... but i stand by my statement that in either case, a newb is better off getting real seat time *then* using simulations (and even video games like NFSS) to supplement

OP, if you are still around...... There is actually some decent advise buried in some of these posts if you look hard enough. :tup:

I have a feeling some of the... Uumm "drivers" in this thread may have scared off the OP. :p

I completely disagree with you as I am a byproduct of way too much simulation. It didn't turn me into Michael Schumacher, but it sure put me in a better spot than most of the drivers that are on track with me.

fine to disagree... and i suspect you prob have natural talent and would have developed just as fast or faster if you had spent a fraction of that sim time on the track... the question is what would you recommend to someone not = you?

I don't know about natural talent, just a lot of luck and practice.

Sim isn't for everyone, but it is a tool that definitely can't hurt. I always say simulation taught me the basics of driving and racing, autox taught me the real car control and therefore the race track is just a place for me to put everything together and utilize everything I learned.

so it seems the consensus here for the majority is that auto x is a good start, after some experience, get some DE courses, and finally go to open lapping after I am comfortable with the experience. what about go karts? as for video games, i played some of them, and they really don't feel at all like real driving. they still feel like video games.

The easy answer is simple: seat time. As much as you can get/afford.

Sounds good. Go karts are fun but pretty useless for learning to drive a car. Their grip to weight ratio is much higher than a car, and the weight is rear biased.

Video games are useless, driving sims are a tool. Driving sims are useful especially in that auto-x to track transition, they teach you about the racing line, braking zones etc. It will also impress your instructor if you can show up to a track and already have a good feel for the racing line, which the instructor can help you fine tune. Driving sims currently only exist on the PC, and you need a quality force feedback wheel and pedal set. Iracing's catalog of local tracks is gradually growing. If I'm going to do a track day I usually check to see if they have it and will do practice laps to familiarize myself before heading out. Although there is no substitute for real seat time with an instructor.

:iagree:

Just to add $0.02 to the conversation.

Simulations:
I do a lot of GTR-2 and GTR Evo and I've found that you can learn a racing line 100% with it. Show up at a track and have a very decent knowledge of the line. I've never been to the nurburgring but I can recite to you, out of memory, how you set up for every corner, braking points and where/when you can get back on the throttle and even gears for certain cars. The same goes for a lot of other tracks too. I downloaded my local track (Homestead) for GTR2 and drove a 350z on it and was within like 3-4 seconds of my real life time on a stock 370.

Lap records on most of the tracks in GTR2 are within a second or two of the real life record for that car on that track, some less than a second. Specially if you look at spec cars such as lemans class and the like. There are a lot of mods out for the game too which can add all sorts of tracks, physics, sounds cars, etc.

You can learn a lot about being smooth and proper braking and throttle inputs for sure. It definitely doesnt hurt to pick up a force feedback steering wheel ($50 on ebay) and a copy of GTR Evo ($20) and go at it. Drive the WTCC class without TC on and tell me that doesn't feel realistic....some of you guys would be surprised how much you can learn from a sim. In fact all pro drivers practice on Sims nowadays before the race. McLaren has a pretty amazing one that uses data from their CFD supercomputer to test out how chassis and aero changes will feel on the road. There's a great video of this somewhere with lewis hamilton testing out aero parts for the F1 car on a big simulator.


Karts:
Like someone said, driving Karts is like cheating. They have huge amount of grip and 0 weight transfer. At the same time, I think there is a lot to be learned about conservation of momentum, smooth inputs, catching a slide, controlling understeer and being able to use all this to make the car do what you need it to. Braking is also fun in karts because no ABS and they are so light that you have to be careful not to lock them. Drive a kart on a wet track, that will tell you how good a driver you are. It can be a humbling experience let me tell you.

There is a place for both of these, but like someone else also mentioned...they are definitely not the same as racing your Z around a track. There is no replacement for seat time and that's really the only way you will ever get fast. With the Sim you dont have G-forces or consequences...there's only so much that can teach you. Karts are more like racing single seaters like F1 cars than your Z.

So...get a sim, get into a racing school. Then AutoX or take an HPDE day at your local track. Be smooth, the speed will come on its own.

I am not the OP but I have read these postings and find it very informative. I have been to one AutoX event so far but plan on going to a lot more. Eventually I would love to move up into road courses. Thank you guys very much for your inputs.

ABSOLUTELY!!! Don't get me wrong, re-reading my posts makes me sound like Auto-X is the ONLY way to get experience.

IMO it is the cheapest and easiest - but totally agree driving on the track requires a different style/approach than auto-x.

i actually skipped auto-x and went straight to hpde. i wont comment on things i havent done but ill say that having an instructor in the car with me was 1 of the best things for my personal improvement. now it can be hit or miss with instructors but thats why the more driving time and different instructors you ride with, the more you will learn. also try to ride with instructors in their cars to learn even more. i think the problem with starting off on your own is then having to unlearn bad habits you might start. then again the same thing may happen with a poor instructor so take everything with a grain of salt.

oh, you must always start with an instructor. Always, for learning and for safety. I don't know of any clubs around here that let you just "go at it" by yourself. I had to drive with instructors several times before getting signed off to drive solo class. Even now, I think I would benefit from different points of view about which lines are faster. I've had instructors show me different approaches to the same corner on the same day.

This is one of those things where you never stop learning.

also as a tip, make sure you learn from the right person. there are a lot of morons out there

What I did:

Spent 5 years in autocross - learned a lot about car control, quick reactions, running the car at the edge (but at lower speeds). Benefits of autocross is cheap entry fees, can use your own car, if you spin you don't wreck your car, and they are easily available. I won many regional championships, and attended the national championships a few times. Had a blast. Great starting point, unless you can afford to buy a race car.

After autocross, I went straight to a SCCA driving school, bought a car, and have been racing for 10+ years. Autocross skills definately crossed over to road racing, but the speeds are higher, and there isn't a constant 'being on the edge' feeling (more straights to check gauges and figure out when to brake). What autocross didn't deal with was running in traffic. My advice, is then seat time, seat time, and more seat time. I have done Sims / video games, but they didn't do much except learn some lines. But, you don't get the car feedback and seats of the pants feeling. I think your path depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to race wheel to wheel, and can afford a race car, I would go straight to a SCCA school and start getting seat time. If money is an issue, I would start with autocross. If you don't want to race wheel to wheel, and you have money, go straight to HPDEs - no money, start with autox. I wouldn't worry too much about your driver's instructor, as track time, and following the fast guys is where you will learn the most.

Whatever you do, think about the financial impact, and have fun and be safe.

Learning how to drive fast on a racetrack has a very simple path of entry. Hook up with a local NASA, SSCA, or other high performance driver education group. You can find them on Motorsportreg.com or TrackSchedule.com - Coco's Drivers Ed Calendar for 2010. No real need to upgrade the car initially, as it will speak to you when it needs something. :)

With enough training, practice, and seat-time, you can extract 99% out of a given machine.

Good instruction is critical, just like entering any new hobby or sport.

:iagree:

It's the easy answer, but not necessarily the complete answer. As was hinted at above, the seat time needs to be QUALITY seat time + in-car instruction + quality in-class instruction (which you almost never get with Autocross, and is a crap shoot with most HPDE's.)

I disagree... MOST karts that people will drive are low on power, but even worse, low on torque. And that's PERFECT for figuring out how smoothness and the correct line through a turn (or complex of turns) affects momentum and performance... and you figure this out easily and directly, even without instruction.

IMO... iRacing is the only sim that should be used to work on driving techniques and/or to learn a track. They (to my knowledge) are the only sim who laser scans each track in the sim for the absolute most accurate representation. The do the same for the cars in the sim (although I have learned that they might base a new vehicle physics & adjustments model on a similar existing vehicle in the sim.) They are constantly updating and improving the physics of the vehicles, again, for the most accurate representation of real driving.

That said, the two most important things you will never be able to re-produce in a sim, is the g-force (seat of the pants) feel, and the sense of speed. In a real car, windows down, corner coming up... your brain starts using inputs your body gives you (kinesthetic) as opposed to JUST visual input (all you have in sim.)

There's one more thing that hasn't been mentioned (but I hinted at it above)... if at all possible... start your HP driving "career" in a low-power, balanced vehicle.

I know that's not a popular suggestion, but you'll be a better driver for it in the long run.

your last point is a darn good one... i started in a boxster and it was a fantastic training ground... total momentum car, supremely balanced, comfortable at the limits... our Z's have more power and are a little more tail happy but if you ease your way in, they can be perfectly safe at the track and good to learn on