They do this with every new performance car. The Boss Mustangs were 60k when they hit lots. The E92 M3 was 90k when it first showed up. Happens with every car.
Performance step-up is not the most important feature of a sports car. If it was, we'd all own faster cars for the money than a 370z.
Agree that people have opinions and that value is subjective. But both sides of this argument should test drive the car before praising or damning it. People speculating that it's underpowered haven't driven it, either.

I agree 100%. However, bludgeoning people over the head with your opinion and deriding them for having their own opinion (especially when both sides are on equal footing - i.e. never driven said car) is a piss poor way of trying to convince others to see it your way.

That's true. I guess we just have to get past that period for the car to reach its true price point.

Maybe not to you, but that's why I said value is a subjective thing. Performance step up is one of the most important things for me for my next car, but it's not the only thing. Also have to look at cost, looks, interior, etc. My next car after my Z will most definitely not be one that is a step down in performance. At the minimum it should have the potential to be a step up after some mods.

Exactly, but of course this is the internetz and we will forever argue and bench race without ever even sitting in the car.

sure, if you want your BRZ when erryone else has 'em.

Just saying, I bet you could have a lot more fun with a Miata than an Aventador on local roads. But on paper, the Aventador is the obviously faster machine. You just would have to route yourself around any speed bumps, couldn't drive it to its limits ever, and would have trouble leaving it parked anywhere without being a nervous wreck. It's all relative.

I argue with this statement, and these undocumented statistics support my assertion: 3.2, 141, the battle of Gettysburg, penguin

Psh I would be happier staring at an Aventador in my garage all day than driving a Miata. I'd have to track it to get anywhere even close to its limits, but I'd be willing to do that. :p

Yeah, but you could actually drive the Miata places on a daily basis with no worries, and you would probably have more fun getting from A to B legally on everyday roads.

Tracking a car is quite expensive. But you could do that and have fun in the Miata as well. :tup:

But back on topic, buy a BRZ meow!

If I can buy an Aventador, I can probably afford to track an Aventador. Legally I may be able to have more fun on everyday roads, but who drives like that all the time? :rolleyes:

I could always have something like a BRZ as a DD and Aventador as the weekend car. Best of both worlds. I would DD an Aventador if I had to, but that's just me :roflpuke2:

lol it doesn't mean you have to go balls out all the time, it means you always have the option in a Miata to legally go play.

But again, we're derailing.

So you would really rather drive a Miata from point A to point B rather than Aventador? I don't see how that's possible, but I guess this just proves that people are different and have contrasting opinions.
With that said, I can see how driving Aventador in NYC would be frustrating, but I'd rather deal with that frustration than drive Miata :superghey:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/atta...azda-miata.jpg

That's cuz you are Batman. :icon17:

You're all pretty much missing the point.

I would rather own the lambo for obvious reasons. It would be more fun on rare occasions when you can get it out.

But on a daily basis, I would have more fun with the Miata. You could drive it any time, be less nervous about damaging it, and could actually play with it closer to its limits without being a danger to other motorists.

And way too many people hate on that little car. They are amazing to drive. Haters gonna hate. More Miatas race on actual race tracks than any other sports car.

Ever since NFS:Underground, I have always kept a special place in my heart for the Miata. I know someone with one, but sadly have never gotten to drive it. :(

shadoquad, well, I was making a silly joke with Miata being gay.

But as far as missing the point, I disagree. I think its just that we all like to do different things on the road. Yes, you can get closer to pushing Miatas, Dodge Neons, Chevy Cavaliers, and other weak cars when pushing them to their limits in a 30mph zone. Been there, done that. Yes, its a different kind of fun, but its not for me. I for example like to accelerate fast and occasionally sin on the roads. I am addicted to that, I guess... and Miata just wouldn't cut it for me at all. I also don't feel comfortable in small cars. So definitely no Miata for me.
Aventador... I would be having fun in that car on the first red light... even if its getting to 60 in less than 3 seconds... the way I would get pushed into the seat... :tup:

Neons and Cavaliers are not in the same class. Pretty bad comparison. The Miata is the best selling sports car over the past twenty years, although it faces declining numbers right now. It is a proper rear wheel drive car, has a nearly perfect front-back weight ratio. It is not some fwd slug. Take it to a curvy road, and it will reward you.

If gunning it at a red light is your pleasure, then good for you. Buy a drag car. The BRZ is not going to be a straight line car. I am much more of a cornering and back roads enthusiast. A Miata or BRZ suits me down to the ground. I drive my Z on the twisties. I didn't buy it to be a drag car.

Yeah, I like drag the most, but the reason I didn't buy a mustang is because I still like to be able to take a turn at a high speed. Honestly, I doubt Miata can be driven on a regular mountain road as fast as 370z. I feel like the Z allowes you to experience the best of the two worlds (mustang world and miata world).

Depends on how straight the road is, but more important is the driver mod. Miatas can go at insane speeds in curves, but more importantly, with the top down, the sensation of speed is much greater. Same with the lightness of the car. It's funny that you called it weak. It only makes 175 hp or so, but with a light car, you don't need much power. Look at the Lotus Elise. 200hp, light frame, very thrilling car.

The new Mustang handles as well as the Z. You could have gotten the best of both worlds for less money had you simply bought the Mustang, and it would put up better drag times.

Yeha, I guess new Miata's are better. The only Miata I drove was an older one (early 2000s or late 90s), and it was weak. My Pontiac Grand Am felt better when accelerating. Driving a new Miata would probably increase my opinion on that car, but meh ;)

I find it hard to believe that new 5.0 handle as well as Z, but even if they did, I'd still get a Z. Mostly because I believe that Z is built better than the Mustang, the Mustangs are very common, and the Z in my opinion looks better than the Mustang inside and outside.
Now, I would probably choose a Boss or GT500 over Z ;) But hey, lets not get too derailed? I think we just have different opinions and beliefs, and although mine is different than yours, I still understand and respect yours.

Saw my first one today, it looked good for a moment and then it feel off quickly.
The car has great potential to look fantastic with aftermarket but from factory Toyota dialed it down a bit much, should have pushed it a bit like concept II.

The Mustangs are built rather well these days. Ford has come a long way in quality in the past 10 years or so. We have had no real problems with my brother's '08 Mustang and the new ones are supposed to be built even better from my understanding. At this point, I honestly think you are splitting hairs on build quiality between the Z and Mustang. It also appears to do very well in the corners these days. I think the Z has an ever so slight edge, but my guess is that is due to weight more than anything. Just a guess though.

here is the thing... you pull up in an aventador.. panties drop... ladies panties...


you pull up in your slick miata... panties may drop... but they belong to doods.
:stirthepot:

Miatas ARE a blast... and it's why I love my DD... a 92 s-10 blazer.. because I can do **** like off road if i need, and I am not worried about people hitting me an ****

Neo, I respect your opinion, too :tiphat:

:ugh2:

:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

nothing like a turbo miata to make me creamy

LS Miata > Turbo Miata :stirthepot:

:ls2blazer:

Wait? what? huh? :confused:

Where? when? why? :excited:

Which? How? Really? :stirthepot:

:werd:

I've tried to make this exact point too many times on this forum and people just don't get it.

Same thing for the hate for the FRS/BRZ, I just don't get it myself but then again I am a very open-minded person when it comes to cars in general.

It's funny how many of you here hate on this car as though it's a competitor to the Z or that it lessens the Z in some way. It will be an affordable RWD sportscar with plenty of aftermarket options, some of you just need to accept that. :stirthepot:

I disagree I have typically bought production cars and broke even after driving them for 2 years. It takes some skill but I have done it multiple times. I bought Mazdaspeed 6 gt for 23k and two years later sold it for $22k and bought a new Chevy crewCab truck for $19k and sold it for 17k two years later. Your not going to get close to that with BRZ unfortunately so you lose a big piece of your intial investment.

You have more choices than you think! Go make a deal on a BMW 135 or even 128 coupe. Way more car for the money!

I just don't think making car rear wheel drive is worth $10 k premium over cars using similar motor etc. the power of marketing is a wonderful thing! Makes people like me a ltttle richer separating those who can rationalize this purchase with their hard earned cash!

Have you seen new pics Of convertible Versions? The lose back seat!

I meant you'd never make your money back on a new car. Your example of losing only 2k on a new truck after 2 years is an exception not an ordinary case. Most of the time you lose that much after driving off the lot.

I can't buy used. I just think back to how I used to treat cars and I can't bring my self to trust anyone owning a car before me. I know ... not very reasonable, but what the hay.

I was actually looking at 135/128 first, but buying one new with the features I want is much more expensive than the BRZ -- and you don't get that much more with the 128 and the 135 is about 6k more.

The thing I really want is small and light. I remember my old '74 fiat spider I had in the early 90s. 1.8 liter, not very fast, but light and nimble and fun to toss around. For my everyday driver I don't want a powerful car. I just want a fun light car that has RWD dynamics. Keep tossing out options cause I'm open to any new car that fits my bill. Like I said, I have a certain style of car in mind and I'm willing to pay extra for it (up to a point), but I'm not seeing much in that class.

That's part of the reason I want the BRZ/FRS to be successful. I want these sorts of cars to be more available and the only way that will happen is if people buy them. So if I have to pay a bit more than I normally would for the same level of car, I just chalk that up to taking one for the enthusiast team. You're welcome :)

I desperately want them to make a version with OEM boost and compete seriously with the Z.

That would be my next car (unless the next Z is even better...)

Here's what you don't get / are missing Ghost Rider:

The point I've been making is that it's ridiculous to ASSUME one way or the other that the BRZ / FR-S are somehow "over priced" and or "under powered" based one what is known.

If most reviews said the BRZ / FR-S were a POS / Too slow, etc there might be a bases for that sort of opinion. However, seeing as this is NOT the case there's no bases to ASSUME the car is somehow not worth the price.

It's dumb enough to judge a car having never driven it but to dis it when the reviews have been so overwhelmingly positive it makes absolutely no sense. It's pretty simple stuff.

When a car "s" and deemed to be phenomenal by most accounts it just doesn't make much sense to conclude (without driving nonetheless) that the car "s" will somehow / someway not be worth it / over priced, etc.


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Motor Trend track tested:

Scion FR-S
Subaru BRZ
Ford Mustang
Hyundai Gen Coupe
Mazda MX-5 Miata
VW GTI

Summary:

1st place: Subaru BRZ - Offers Miata levels of driving enjoyment, with the practically and livability of a car with a roof, four seats, and truck. So it wins because they deemed it the best overall package in addition to being almost as fun as the MX-5.

2nd place: Scion FR-S - Basically the same as the BRZ but not quite the bargain considering interior /features.. Oh and it's a little more prone to oversteer /less controllable .

3rd place: Mazda MX-5 Miata- The most fun to drive car of the group. Pro driver "Randy Pobst" stated: "There's a reason 80 MX-5 Miatas are on the Pre-Grid at Road America, and it's the same reason this is the only car in which I did an extra lab simply 'cause I didn't wanna stop".

4th place: Ford Mustang - Pobst sums up the Mustang this way: "In terms of this group of cars, the Mustang is fast and numb"." Against the likes of BRZ, FR-S and Miata, it feels less engaging and, ultimately fat".

5th place: VW GTI - Drivers who require that a car have more than a tinge of practically need look no farther. But when performance is paramount, they'd be well advised to keep looking.

6th place: Hyundai Gen Coupe 2.0T R-Spec - Randy Pobst "Good mid-range torque, but feels distant and rubberized, detracting from on-track gratification". They complained about the crappy 6MT, steering feel / feedback and a few other things as well. It put down pretty good #'s though if that matters.

These cars are all 30K and under but I don't think there's a new car up to 40K that would knock off the top 3 here besides maybe the EVO and it would be close in terms of being a superior driver's car.

As far as straight line acceleration the BRZ / FR-S / MX-5 posted nearly identical 0-60 and 1/4 mile times: MX-5- 6.3 / 14.9; BRZ- 6.4 / 14.9 / FR-S-6.2 / 14.8.

The Mustang was the fastest car of the group posting: 5.3 / 13.9 followed by the Gen Coupe's 5.7 / 14.2 and GTI's (6-speed twin-cl auto) 6.1 / 14.7

Just another great example showing how test track #'s don't even begin to scratch the surface when evaluating the value of a sports car.


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Once again, a RX-8 with better gas mileage. Big deal.

You also can't assume the FRS/BRZ is a great driver's car without actually driving it first. Just because MT put it in 1st place on some comparison test doesn't give it more value as a sports car.

No, we still like MT here. It was car and driver that we determined was useless
:|

You say this as if it's a bad thing.