A lot of it probably has to do with internal politics as well.

When the 370Z flopped (from a project perspective), it becomes harder for the "let's build something sporty" faction to get funding.

The GTR was a huge success, which has resulted in more funding--some of which has gone to upgrades, most of which has gone to press. You'll see a next-gen GTR because it had a huge positive to Nissan's bottom-line.


Ford's doing big things with the Mustang because when they packaged more performance, they sold more. People (like me) who would have never bought a Mustang, bought one...and loved it.

When Nissan packed more performance in the Z, they sold less. It had more to do with the fact that their release timing was terrible, but internal politics is tough. Drop the ball on a project, and you have to wait before you get fat NP funding again.

Get it right (like the guys at Ford did), and you get a higher credit limit.

Time for me to chime in on this whole Nissan vs. Ford thing, and then I'll get to why Nissan is where it is and where it is headed.

As far as Nissan vs. Ford - Ford has two cash cows - the F150 and the Mustang. In each of those segments, Nissan has the short end of the stick across the board as far as sales volume and the overall competitiveness of its matching product. The only vehicle Nissan has that was a threat to Ford's product of the same segment is the Altima, and that has even come back to get Nissan in the form of the Fusion - it is kicking *** in the market right now.

Nissan's Titan is hopelessly outdated (blame the Italians for that, as Nissan's joint venture with Dodge for the hemi donor chassis for the next gen was the first thing Fiat axed when they bought Chrysler), and they're taking an awfully long time to bounce back and produce a second generation vehicle (the current Titan is one of the longest running platforms in the company's history without a significant refresh or full redesign). Since the original Titan, which was a great bang-for-the-buck alternative in the full sized market, the competition has evolved.

The Z is too much of a niche car for the common buyer in the sports car market. While most of us here appreciate the car and its heritage and what it can do, the fact of the matter is in the sports car commonplace, horsepower is what people look at. They don't study a lot more. When you stack a Z against a new Mustang, the common sports car buyer will buy the Mustang. Period. Last year, the Mustang actually accounted for at least half of sports car sales. Huge, especially considering the market is growing with product alternatives.

The Altima is the source of blame for Nissan's recent trend of vanilla in my opinion. The pencil-pushers in charge have noted the Altima's success since its 3rd generation bowed, and they have spread that formula across the board to where it has completely bullied each bordering segment of passenger car.

A 2013 model 2.5 Altima makes 38 MPG highway. Which is the exact same as the 2013 Versa, which sports far less space, far less power, and far less overall quality. A Versa equipped with commonly purchased amenities goes for about $14-16k. When you hit the 16k mark in price, you're dangerously close to what the Altima would go for (starting in the low 20s, could probably be had for 19k and change if you worked a dealer on it). Why would you buy the Versa when you can have a completely otherworldly vehicle for just a couple thousand more? The compact car is to be a budget car, and is not so at 14k.

The fact that I even wrote the paragraph above is not at all good for the 2013 Sentra, which is slotted between those two cars with the same fuel economy and horsepower that is right in between the two models. There is almost no place for that car. Especially when benchmarked against the competition - (the Mazda3 Skyactiv Sedan for example - more power, better fuel economy). From a distance, it is even difficult to distinguish a 13 Sentra from a 13 Altima. The Sentra used to be a completely different vehicle from the Altima. Not so anymore. It is a ripoff of the car and it doesn't do anything better than the Altima.

Now that brings us to the other side of the spectrum - the Maxima. AKA the car that does nothing different from an Altima 3.5SL yet costs $10k more. At least it looks different, but why would you buy one aside from that? At least in Toyota's case, the Avalon is a larger vehicle with regards to trunk space, interior space, and overall dimensions, and offers more upscale amenities than its smaller sibling in the Camry. The Maxima has none of this.

So now, with Nissan's passenger cars, we have the following lineup. The "tall" (Versa), the "Grande" (Sentra), the "Venti" (Altima), and the Venti that is $5 more for the same drink in the same size but comes in the holiday themed cup instead of the normal cardboard. That is what has happened to Nissan.

The same existential crisis is present in the Murano since the debut of the new Pathfinder. The new Pathfinder also nullifies the benefits of going to an Armada. Same goes for the Juke and Rogue. What is the point of a Rogue vs. a Juke? A touch more cargo space perhaps. Nothing more. It's dull, boring, slower, less engaging to drive, and has a duller interior.

The only three vehicles that Nissan makes that stand out are the Xterra, the GT-R, and the 370Z. (Notice how I left the Leaf off? It's because the Leaf is a flop and will be forgotten in 10 years when America realizes the electric car is nothing more than blowing smoke at the real energy crisis it is facing and the electric car will never facilitate America's transportation needs outside of big cities.)

The 370Z has played victim to the GT-R, much like every passenger car Nissan makes has played victim to the Altima, but for different reasons. Nissan's sports car budget has gone DIRECTLY to the GT-R and they have done nothing more than toss the Z on life support because they ignored what was happening to the mid-range sports car market with respect to the American economy. They had a serious opportunity to respond to that with the design of the 370Z (making it a 2+2 again, for example, as well as providing some practical use for a daily driven sports car like every other sports car it competes against), but instead they were too attached to the format of the 350Z, which came along during a time which the market was in a completely different place than when the 370Z was to be launched. Nissan was too focused on the GT-R and continues to be too focused on the GT-R.

As for the Xterra, it is the last of a dying breed of utility vehicle, and as the market is somewhat stagnant now, a major game changer will have to come along, and sadly but fittingly, it will likely be the Jeep Wrangler that does this as it is and always will be the king of true offroad body-on-frame SUVs.

Ford is doing more than Nissan because Ford, while having the capital to take risks, has actually had the fortitude to take the risks. That's the problem - Nissan is playing it way too safe. There's no excuse to this - we just saw a major success at breathing life into a once retired segment in the entry level sports car, and it took two companies to do it: Subaru and Toyota. Two companies who saw an opportunity in the market and seized it together, and they're now reaping the rewards. Why isn't Nissan doing that? Why isn't Honda doing that? Better yet, why aren't these companies trying to do this TOGETHER?

They're not concerned with it, and that's ok. The Nissan of old died when Renault showed up. Luckily, in our free market economy, we are free to buy something else, and hopefully Nissan will get the message unless the next Z is a game changer.

People are clamoring for a "mini Z" to meet the BRZ/FRS. They aren't doing it anytime soon. But what Nissan needs to do for sure? The need the next Z to be a "mini GT-R". If they're not going to do that, then they need to hang it up and do their best to build the next Camry, because it's all they'll have left.

Oh the **** has hit the fan now!

lol.:ugh2:

Nissan needs to try to be more like ford?

What? They sold cars. If you've even been in a company with competing operational philosophies, it's exactly the same. Get results, get funded.

If the 2011-2013 Mustang had sold like the 370Z, you wouldn't be seeing a ground up re-design, you'd be seeing an S197 with LED strips on the bumper.

If the 370Z had sold like it was projected, you'd have probably seen a 2013 or 2014 performance bump, much like you saw on the 350Z.

It pretty much comes down to--if you want a company to make sporty cars, their sporty cars have to make money.

Yeah but you can't compare the business philosophies and product line-up of ford to nissan.

I think Japan, just got pissed with american reviewers nitpicking and they let the car be.

Nissan mistakes were not fixing the first 5 issues that arose immediately. And the american media GROSSLY exaggerated the Z flaws while over-glorifying american sports entries. People in the country believe what they hear from a so-called respected source. they don't take the pepsi-challenge like they should...
While there is high logic and reasonability to your analysis. You're negating way more factors that I think played a bigger role. Nissan sells 250 Gt-R's a month, but they poor millions in that car. There's a bigger reason than NOT being like ford.

The Z got great review when it was new. The typical reporting cycle generally has flaws ignored for a while.

At the end of the day, Nissan doesn't make decisions based on what car magazines say. It's a business, they have a fiscal obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits, and they do whatever they can to get there. Decisions at the top level are based on sales numbers and profit margins, not on anything else.

Some groups tend more towards different strategies. When the sporty guys are successful, you see more sporty cars from that company (think Honda circa 98). When they have some bad luck (declining sales, etc), the beancounters win (see Honda circa now).


Nissan dumps money in the GTR because it's the most effective way for them to advertise.

Beats doing this:

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/up...01-655x354.jpg

If Nissan would have made the sacrifice to immediately fix the first few criticisms... Do you think they'd be in this media situation right now?

It has nothing to do with media and everything to do with sales. There's plenty of cars that do not get great reviews and still sell well. You may remember the 350Z did not get fantastic reviews either-- but...it sold

The Z didn't sell early on because it was poorly released. There was no pre-release hype, no build-up to an event. The BRZ was back-ordered how many months early on? You couldn't get your hands on a 5.0 for the first several months of release. This is what the marketing group gets paid for, and they dropped the ball.

Nissan basically started shipping 370z's to dealer lots where they sat and collected dust. A lot of people didn't even realize Nissan had released something because the car barely showed up in any media sources prior to release. The cars sat on lots, dealers started selling them under invoice, and all of a sudden it is nothing special--and you should never underestimate how stupid people are when it comes to exclusivity. The Boss mustang fixes nothing about the 5.0 that a set of Koni Yellow's couldn't do better, and yet it's in a different league.

Failing to build hype and anticipation early on will cause the car to fail long-term, even if it wasn't released 5 months in to an economic down turn.

Lmao. Does it though?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Nissan should have something like Ford Racing products, that offers all kinds of factory engine and chassis performance goodies that come with a full factory warranty when dealer installed. You can get a stripper 5.0 and then add the Ford Racing blower for huge HP gains and then add the brakes, springs, shocks....all kinds of things. All Nissan does is keychains and car covers.

:iagree: Nissan dropped the ball big time.

I hope Nissan does turn things around with the next gen Z, but I'm not expecting much. Very much looking forward to the 2015 5.0. It's most likely going to be my next car.

It will take alot for me to commit to a Mustang, but if the new one owns the Z like the current GT does as far as straight up straight line speed than that will be it for me. Its just a better bang for your buck value regardless if the Z is sexier. I hate the fact that the manual for the Z you have to have a perfect launch off the line or else you're getting dusted by a Toyota Camry V6 or Honda Accord V6.

Yeah I wasn't a big fan of the Mustang either until I got a ride in Steve's 2011 5.0. I was quite shocked. I would have bought one if this new redesign wasn't coming so soon.

Then you were impressed when I took you for a drive in the car. :tup:

:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl:

While the Mustang has more power, etc etc etc. I just cant stand seeing 500 a day (exaggeration) everytine i go to town. Nice car and great buy but i still rather my Z when the day is over, not just because of the looks, but because ive been a nissan "fan boy" since i was little. I hardly see a Z at all where i live and mustangs are just everywhere. My car catches eyes before the mustang does, and although i may lose in a straight to the mustang, i know i would never be happy driving one. The Z could use a nice boost, thats for sure but if i really want a drag demon...ill build an old car thats always been the best route to take when building a drag car. No worrying about voiding warranties and you put what you want in it. And just for the record for those that have the new 5.0's, are the trannys that bad? I watched some videos and researched some forums on it and it seems like everyone has a problem with it. :/

Never had a problem with mine.

I was just curious. I read alot about it.

There was a short batch, very early, that had some issues and Ford is fixing them, must be nice. Yes, Nissan has fixed my transmission but the other stuff they ignore which is a lot worse.

Im assuming your having problems with yours?

My Nissan transmission? Yes, I had one replaced already for a bad 5th gear syncro & it has gone out again almost.

The 350z's competition was only really the mustang. And though it wasn't the greatest Nissan had put out. The Z was a better overall car than its only realy power competitor. build quality, performance, handling and interior was far superior than the mustang. That said, the Z was pretty crappy inside, which didn't say much for the mustang at that time.
Then there was the mazda rx-8 but it dropped off power after 80mph and consumers dont like hearing about cars dropping power and lack of torque. The Z filled a gap for people who couldn't afford corvettes or wanted a better quality car than a mustang, and needed more power than Rx8.
There were no camaro's, gen coupe flavors, BRZ's FRS's Challengers, and the solstice in the first 3 years of production got no respect. Afterward it got a small cult following.
German cars were undepowered in the affordable ranges and FWD sports cars were worn out by the public. The Z sold because there was NO true competitor and it was the best of the worst.

Alot of weak sports cars sold at one time because there wasn't a competitive market. The market is competitive now.

While you are bringing up vlid points from a business aspect. You are negating consumer response to negative hype. this whole country runs on hype. You hype it, people buy it. Lets keep it real. The Z never got hype, love or respect except for the first 6 months, before the american entries. Once the american market pulled their cars out the bias began.

example
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

Just to show a non Z example... A lot of this was going on in 09. The camaro v6 couldn't beat a civic on a track. Let alone a gencoupe 3.8. The gencoupe v6 compared to any v6 muscle made them all look like garbage. Camaro, mustang and challenger.

But this happened.

And camaro v6 sell more than gencoupes. Genesis coupes are superior to v6 muscle in every way. But watch a review and you swear its a tight race between the two. I've driven v6 muscle cars in 2010. They were jokes on wheels. I see the gencoupe as a respectable option below Z's and real v8 muscle.

Sure.

There certainly weren't options like the Honda S2000 or the Mazda RX8. I feel like Pontiac may have been selling something during that timeframe too...GTO? All this to say nothing of the cars that would realistically be cross-shopped, notably the EVO, STI, GTI, R32, and things like a slightly used 4th gen camaro.


Your expectation for consumer's purchasing decisions is demonstrably inaccurate.


I'd argue it was more competitive then. There's very little competition now.



It has nothing to do with biases and everything to do with the media cycle. There's nothing new to say about the 370Z anymore. Ooh, it has an oil-cooler (standard on the Honda Fit) and some LED lights. And the wheels look like they've been melted.

Rule one. Do not make the media's job hard. Do not release a boring vehicle.

The 350Z got great late-lifecycle reviews against the mustang because Nissan added power and changed the game. The 370Z gets worse reviews than it may deserve (or maybe gets a fair review, who knows) because the media wants a horse race and Nissan's behind.

Do you remember in the 90s when MT and C&D were pitting the RX7 against the viper? Do you remember when that same RX7 was wiping the floor with the much-hyped NSX? The media ate it up...the car could do no wrong.

The 5.0 is much the same now...not as extreme, but when was the last time a 30K car left license plate imprints in an M3s bumper? Nothing sells better than a story like that, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a car that looked better in print than a 3rd gen RX7.


But wait, why did it get killed off after just 3 years?


1978: 19,299
1979: 54,853
1980: 43,731
1981: 43,418
1982: 48,889
1983: 52,514
1984: 55,696
1985: 53,810
1986: 56,243
1987: 38,345
1988: 27,814
1989: 16,249
1990: 9,743
1991: 6,986
1992: 6,006
1993: 5062

it didn't sell. You'll note the dramatic lack of anything interesting out of Mazda for a while after.

Sure, the price was creeping and times were changing, but there's not been a car that fared better in print than the 3rd gen RX7.

The problem is, as always, fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders trumps all. Don't sell, get cut.


Yes, we all know you love the gen coupe.

I don't agree with your assessment of the Gen vs the V6 mustang though. I've autocrossed both, and the mustang is way faster. I seem to recall the V6 mustang putting over a second on the gencoupe during the lightning lap, despite spending a good chunk of time bouncing off the limiter....

Uh, this is undercutting the influence of price just a tad, don't you think?

The FC to FD price difference was massive. They essentially moved the entire car upmarket. How do you think the BRZ would do if after five years or so they changed the starting price to $35,000? Even if it was a handling miracle, the old fanbase would be removed from the market and they'd have to start entirely from scratch. Likewise, that same market was highly competitive in the early 90s.

I agree though -- if a car doesn't sell it won't continue to be produced. I also disagree with the idea that the Z's problem is that the media doesn't love it enough.

But I don't believe it wasn't hyped enough at launch, or that it was launched poorly (media wise), or anything like that. I think the timeframe of the launch was poor. They released a sports car into a market that was in recession.

I think it was that decision that doomed the car. Outside of enthusiasts (a shrinking market to begin with), who the hell is going to buy a sports car with no practicality whatsoever during such a shitty economic time? We're basically repeating the 1990s, except Nissan is the only real Japanese sports car name in town. The Z is going up in price, yet has nothing new to offer. the GT-R -- once a realistic supercar -- is now out of reach for most of us. At $70,000, I thought maybe one day I could possibly own one if everything went okay. At 100 grand? I might as well be thinking about a Ferrari. I'll never be able to afford that, nor could I ever justify that much on a car.

The only bonus? If we really are in the 90s again, it'll only be a few years before we get some great hot hatches and compacts (though it'll be the Americans carrying the banner this time).

You're right, though -- poor sales meant it wasn't getting a big refresh. But the car was sort of destined to flop from the moment it was released.

As it stands now, Nissan's smartest move would be to discontinue the Z for a few years and then bring it back as a 25k 240z. But hell, even then they sort of missed the bus, as I think all the manufacturers chasing Subaru/Toyota are going to be playing a useless game of catch up.

fixed.

fixed

:icon18:

I switched recently out of a 2011 6mt 370z sport+touring into a 2013 6MT Premium package Mustang 5.0 due to some back issues and needing something more comfortable (slipping L5 and L6, thanks afghanistan!). Having never owned an American car, I was sold halfway before the test drive was over. The fit and finish, everything about it is not the American cars us 80's kids grew up with. It does not handle as well at the Z, and the Z does look better, but the 5.0...... its a 5.0. Either you get it or you don't, but for the price, its hard to find something that will put you back in your seat like it.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...AF6D71CC8C.jpg

Off topic, 2 things, thank you for the service you provided our country!
And... Are you sure about your 370?
Are you sure this isn't yours? LOL!http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/imag...z_crash_01.jpg

Rofl absolutely positive, traded in to autrey moreland in MO- mine was purple also. The houses do look alike though!

Also look at the sign- thats a church he ran into!

Maybe you live in a church?

I get talking just to hear your own voice, but...

my 6 year old does the same stuff, just says things to hear his own voice. No biggie I am used to it. or maybe your right, maybe I do live in a church. Its pretty common you know, especially for soldiers. Maybe I am a chaplain?

Mustangs won't follow me through the turns and I haven't seen one beat me in a straight line, more equal on acceleration, Z a little faster.

Ops wrong post. Well kind of applies.

With equal drivers the Mustang equivalent of the Z with sport package is faster in a straight line and on a track than said Z. There is no getting around that.

But obviously its close enough to where it comes down to the driver. Especially the driver's balls when it comes to runs on public roads.

On the Dragon, for instance, I will have no problem keeping glued to the back of 370s with my stock S2000... but that's a public road. Obviously on track it is a completely different story.

Smoked
 

If you are getting smoking by a mustang then it has been tuned or upgraded.

Wrong.