curious just how much of a diff does a superior car make?
 

So I was at the track today, I'm a newbie BTW, and notice there are is a huge assortment of cars with major variations in power out there at the same time (my beginner group had plenty of vettes, a ferrari, GTR, 2 CTS-Vs, etc.) So it got me thinking, the GT-R is obviously superior to the Z in every way (except looks IMO), but would a newbie like me be significantly faster in one? Just how big of a difference does that superior power and handling make? Would a novice GTR driver be faster than an intermediate Z driver? Would a GTR driver with just a few track days of exp be faster than an intermediate or higher level Z driver? I am just curious because basically anytime see a GTR behind me, I'm already looking ahead tot he next passing zone to let him by. Any thoughts on this form guys who have maybe tracked both or at least 2 cars that ar eon 2 very different levels of performance?

I would think a novice GTR driver could beat a intermediate Z driver so long as they had the courage to press the gas pedal, the GTR does the rest.

Is it really that amazing on the turns that it would trump a sizable skill/experience difference?

I was sent to Spring Mountain on GM's dime as a promo for buying a Z06. While there, neither I, nor anyone else I saw, while driving a zr1 could keep up with an instructor in a stock camaro ss on ps2's. I remember when I was in a grand sport trying to keep up with the zr1 in front of me thinking "this isn't fair, no way I can hang with him!" and then I realized that he was still behind the instructors camaro. It was supremely humbling to know that in a 3300# 638 HP car that has set 'ring records, I could be manhandled by someone in a stock camaro. Total ego destruction. Everyone in the class had similar observations. My point here is, owning a Monet does not an artist make.

That's what I was thinking. Obviously, with similar skill levels, the GTR will blow out the Z, but I mean the laws of physics still apply even tot he GT-R so a big skill difference should make up the ability difference in the cars right?

Negative. The gtr will not see the lines, hit apexes, or balance on the brakes bleeding the minimal momentum necessary. It will only shift for you. That's it. It's like saying that all you need to be an artist is a self-sharpening pencil.

:iagree: the car is a driving tool. A professional in a stock 370z could probably catch a newb in a GTR (provided the Z had oil and brake cooling)

This sort of came up because my gf was asking me if I won the lotto if I would buy a GT-R and I said I'd probably have to get more exp in at the track in the Z first so that I don't embarrass myself by being slow in the GT-R. Then i realized that I pretty much assume any GT-R I see out there is going to be amazing and blow the doors off all lesser cars, but thought that can't be right... The mystique of the GT-R can psyche you out, but a beginner in a GT-R is still a beginner right?

:eek: I am an artist. I must have a self-sharpening pencil!!!
I do everything in Photoshop, but still, I must have one!

Wal-Mart has 'em.

I don't really need one, but I didn't know they existed, ha.

It's called a mechanical pencil. Click click. Just like shifting a gtr.

Skills is the essential ingredients of driving.

Remember when Michael Schumacher won the F1 title with Benetton?? He always qualify Top 5 and win races where his team mate was always stuck at the middle of the pack...

nuff said.

The idea of GT-R, with 4WD and lots of driving aids, is to make it easy to drive fast, but if you want to master the track, you need skills.

Driving Aids IS NOT Driving Skils. ;)

Haha, I was imaging something complicated and ridiculous. A mechanical pencil isn't really sharpening itself....

Its really hard to make up nearly 160hp and awd traction. I have a datalog between both caes. You will be amazed at how mucj faster the gtr is. You just need a semi competent driver

So basically, you'd have to be a pretty advanced driver in a Z to be faster than a semi-competent (not good, but not terrible, maybe has a few days of exp) guy in a GT-R?

But I'm sure you agree that driver skill and experience can make up quite a bit of difference. You've logged some seat time. :D

well, I guess if you're on the track at the same time and the GT-R is behind you, it would be pretty hard to beat him since he could just follow your lines and punch it past you on a straight...

at my first track day ever, i was behind my friend who is a better driver in his old miata, and I followed his lines and passed him on the straight since i have like triple his power, but he passed me again after a few more turns, haha.

Did he say "too soon junior!" ?

Yes, but too many variable. That's why you are better off comparing lap times rather than positioning on the track. Also to their defense, I would assume for most people it is harder to push a 80K car vs. a 30K car.

I am not sure how familiar you are with reading telemetry. Here is a picture of a lap comparing this guy's GT-R and my best run. You can see exactly where I am gaining and losing time to him on the graph below. And I know for a fact he was another sec or two quicker when he was following me when I did my best lap. Also he was nowhere close to the edge when he pushed for the time below.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7184/370zgtr.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I did a track day in August. My first with the Z. I took a half day class in a Formula 3 car before this. Not very similar. http://www.the370z.com/nissan-370z-g...chool-day.html

A GTR was present. Our test to get on the track was a cone course. The GTR driver was lagging until the final timed event and took third. Cones are not the same as open tracking, but this was the result.

Oddly enough I saw this car yesterday for the first time. I was waiting at a 5 minute red light when I saw a GTR stop behind me I gave him the thumbs up. He got out and said I know you. Sure enough he is the same GTR from Sears Point. He never sent photos of my car he took in August so I hope he sends them this time.

i run a nissan dealership and i have about 20 trackdays under my belt with a 500whp bmw m6, now i have taken many customers to track days with there gtr's and they consistently put up times close to or better than much more experienced drivers in other cars. you still have to break properly and hit your apex but the gtr makes it easier to do it, you take a bad line and try to force a correction the gtr makes it easier, the other big thing is the throttle and the car rotating, my m6 i gotta baby the gas pedal in 2nd out of a turn, in the gtr its mash and go!!!! a tenth faster here a tenth faster there, a few tenths worth of good shifting and the car will mask allot!!!

also all you have to look at is the ring times, the gtr is like number 4 out of every car on the planet that way allot less and have way more power, thats including your enzo's, carerra gt, italia, mp412c, all the hyper cars!!!! the zr1,viper, and a couple of others beat the gtr

Why keep the M6? Why not get your own GTR?

PS. - which pedal is the bag pedal? I assume gas.

Once again, who is setting those ring times that people love to cite?

Professional drivers, going all-out 10/10ths of their ability.

Yes, it is one indicator of a car's performance potential. But a 7.5 minute ring time can't make a scrub faster on a track.

I have never driven a GTR, only read ton and tons of reviews from people who have. One of the things that is almost universal is how easy it is for a novice to get in an do amazing around a track. The electronics in that car are just so dang good.

I'm not even thinking about the HP difference. I will, of course, yield to the experts here. Just tossing in my 2 cents.

My father has a GT-R that I've driven on multiple occasions. I will admit that a novice driver will be able to do decent in it. But, the car will not figure out weight distribution in and out of corners, proper lines etc. (which have all been mentioned in the thread). But that's not to say it will make the car easier to drive. It takes a truly good driver to use all the technological gadgets in the GT-R to their advantage.

The GTR goes beyond Simple HP numbers. It's like setting a race video game on easy. Can it be beat? yes. Here's what I can tell you the same driver does laps in a GTR then in a Z. I'm betting on the GTR laps being faster.

As much as the Gtr capabilities blow me away, for my personal taste its not what i like. I dont like awd because it takes some of the thrill away from driving and i dont like the dct even though i know its faster because it feels like an automatic. Now if i was out to win races and break records the gtr would def be my weapon of choice. But for what i wanna enjoy on the street or track give me rwd anx a stick all day long.

My point is that every car on the list is driven to the max by a pro and yet the gtr shines, why is it faster than the enzo? Because it can carry more speed in and out of a turn and it shifts way faster. Enough to make up the power and weight disadvantage.

Two guys play the same notes on the Guitar......

One is a novice, and the other a Pro....

Do you really think the beginner sounds as good as the pro..

At the track , there are many a car that are "faster" on paper..

Give a lesser car to a Pro driver, and he will beat you...

FYI..i am not the Pro, but i have seen it done with lesser cars and worse Tires..

Two similar drivers , No, But a true Professional driver will Win every time...

Hand Kyle Busch a Shopping cart, and he will beat the GTR...

Seriously, he then has to run VERY FAST... With FURIOUS.... :eek:

And looks like this:

Did you see "wild thing" in the shootout.

They wrecked him three times and he still beat them all, at daytona with a crushed up car..

Man, i did not like him, but he may be the best i have seen..

Watched the crazy sport since 1969..

One crazy flat out fool...:driving:

OK, so maybe not a shopping cart against the GTR, haha, but you get my point...

A wrecked car, at a super speedway, and not one car beat him? Stewart had the shot but 41 others got their hats handed to them..

Hell he can drive my cars if he wants to...

He is talented and fast, I don't follow NASCAR very much but I know him, nuff said. :tup:

As for you point, yes, I do agree with you, my first post in this thread, #13, state a similar idea.

:icon17:

Kyle is insane. :tup:

I think it's easier to think of it in percentages. 70% driver, 30% car. For a squid, like yourself and many of us, 150hp is more than enough to hone in our driving skills on the track. That's why cars, like the miata are so great. It's relatively nimble around a track and pretty inexpensive. If you've ever seen Top Gear, just look at the times a novice put up in the "reasonably priced car" segment compared to the F1 drivers. This doesn't mean a Kia Cee'd driven by a pro is gonna blow past high powered Ferrari's around the same track driven by a novice, but it could make it interesting. The high performance car will pick up some of the slack of the unskilled driver, but it can only do so much.

In the OP's situtation though, squid vs squid. The GT-R driver has the clear advantage. I would venture to guess an experienced (intermediate) driver could probably put up the same track times in a Z as a novice driver would with some skill in GT-R. A pro in a Z would very likely beat it around the track. He'll know the track better, which would essentially account for huge chunks of time.

There is a difference between fast novice and bad novice.....

God, just to get out there this year is going to be fun.. There will be faster cars, but the fun factor will still be there..It will only be in the Z/28 Track monster...The Wife's 370Z, I can't take to the track, or out early Sunday mornings....She knows what i'll do with it.. Camaro is fully approved for helmet wearing beat downs.. I am just going to follow the faster guys and Learn..

solarguy- if a prius passes you, that is cossie. :icon17: