I am real curious as to why....
 

I am real curious as to why the folks here accept so easily that the
3rd-party manufacturers of parts for the 350 and 370 Z's are completely overcharging for most of the intake and exhaust parts they manufacture whether they be related to NA or forced induction.

The parts being made for our cars are really no different from an engineering design perspective than any other manufactured modeled cars including Ford Mustang and the like.

The design testing that goes on is no differnt either so what added value are these parts providing that is above and beyond the parts manufactured for other makes and models?

My personal thought is that we shouldn't rush out to buy these overpriced parts at all and let the decreae in demand make the statement that we want the more normal pricing-point that these parts should be. As long as everyone is readily buying these parts thesae vendors are walking to their respective banks on our coat-tails.

What gives?

simple, don't buy em then. not everything drops in price. u'll prolly be waiting 5+ yrs for these prices to drop since the model is brand new

also remember we are getting two intakes.... mustang intakes run around 300+ so we really aren't paying too much.

I always wondered why a stainless dual exhaust for my Titan which is 3 times as big costs half as much......

Someone explain that to me? Not like the Titan is that popular.

It's a matter of scale. There are far more Mustangs out there Zs. Produce more and your per-unit costs will decrease, so the consumer will end up paying less.

Now I do think that some things are overpriced. I'd love to see what the profit margin is on an FI, Berk, or Stillen CBE. Probably close to 50%.

It's the price point of the car that practically mandates performance part prices.

Go look at Porsche exhaust systems... and compare to Honda exhausts.

Of course, like someone above said, there's a lot more Hondas out there than you will find Zs and Gs.. But they figure if you can afford a 30k to 40k+ car, you can afford slightly higher prices on performance parts. When I buy parts for my Civic, it's a joke in comparison.

They charge the highest amount that people will pay, just like any other business. Whenever you feel bad about the price of parts, check out what the GTR folks have to pay.

Then don't buy them. You're not under duress.

You ever see those eBay auctions in which the IDIOT auctions the item for far above MKT value, just to see it get relisted over and over and over again for like a year? Then it never sells because nobody is dumb enough to bid that high.

well tbh from my previous project car. I've learnt that waiting doesn't save that much...
if you really wanna save every buck then dun even bother changing out anything on a car.
once you start modding you lost alot of money already.
example on a front bumper. say $900 in 1998. price now $600..
you see what i mean? you wait for like 10 years for a 300 drop or sumthing.
i dun see the point of waiting. if you want to do it smart best way is to group buy. imho.

Try telling the GTR guys how overpriced 370z parts are. They are paying $3500 for a stainless catback and $5000+ for a Ti Catback. Keep in mind that the GTR catbacks don't come with a midpipe. The midpipes are another $700-$900.

Granted I am a vendor, but I do not feel 370z parts are overpriced. I believe the majority on these boards would agree they are priced just like any other import car parts.

Supply & Demand..

exactly. simplest quickest easiest asnwer

truth and they dont even want to know about aero parts :shakes head:


i think the price of 370 stuff is comprable to the begining of the 350 aftermarket with an adjustment for new tech and advancements in the industry. now some of the more elite stuff like ZELE is high but on average i think its about par for the course for a 30-35K car

I know it will never happen but I'd love to see the margins on certain products. :happydance:

Economy of Scale:

Economy of scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's honestly all over the place. The higher quality parts take more R & D and require more expensive parts. This in turn usually raises the cost to the vendors and furthermore to the customer. A lot of parts there is not much margin on. However other parts it's crazy. I obviously can't disclose which parts have which margins, etc. ;)

I'm curious to know how you arrived at the assumption that these manufacturers are "overcharging".

I'd like to buy ribeye steak for $0.30/lb...how dare the supermarket charge me $6.98/lb; who do they think they are anyway! :)

I'm real curious to know why you (the OP) are stating as fact that the 370Z aftermarket parts vendors are overcharging? What's the basis for that claim?

EDIT: Looks like Robert_Nash beat me to the punch!

I understand where the OP is coming from. The AM parts for my 335i were insane. They did come down once multiple vendors started coming out with competitve products. Until then you will have to pay to play.

*posted using my mobile device*

PLEASE, PLEASE...STOP referencing/comparing the nissan world, OR ANY other
manufactures world to that of the mighty american mustang! Thats all I have heard out of your mouth is mustang this, and my friends-friends-uncles-brothers-cousin is this or that in the mustang world.

Everyone knows things are typically much cheaper in the world of american stangs/camaros/etc etc - NO ONE CARES.

However, I must say, I did believe the whole 'if it takes this much metal/r&d for this car, what are they doing to make it so special for this car that makes it that expensive'. It frusterated me to no end, but then you just accept the fact that the more expensive a car is, USUALLY parts get more expensive too. It sucks...

But, I have to ask, have you ever been in or around anything other than a mustang?? For someone who claims they've been doing this (mod's) for 20+ years - you seem really surprised/naive to find that things are more expensive for other manufactures, specifically as the price of the car goes up?!?

I mean, the guy who owns a 911 GT3...Do you think he cares to pay 10k for a titanium exhaust after he has already spent 100k+ on the car? It scales man, it scales...

Am I missing something??

No, you're right. The more expensive the car, the more owners are willing/able to pay for parts. However, because someone is willing/able to pay for something, it alone does not justify an inflated price. Just because I understand, it doesn't mean I agree. I think paying 5k for a piece of pipe is the most ridiculous.

As far as the Mustang thing goes, I agree, but I'm keeping myself out of this one.

I agree 110%

Pricing is probably partially based on how many projected sales they think they can get to recoupe costs associated with designing it, and the intended market.

That, and the more-than-likely demographic of the buyer of the vehicle, the vehicles typical cost...those factor I'm sure...along with how often a model changes.

Yeah, I understand that for sure. I kind of have an idea on what the margins would be like. Being in finance I just really, really want to know for certain though. :happydance:

And no I am not surprised or naive in the least bit. I just happen to have witnessed that in the last 15 years the US consumer has gotten dumber and dumber with each passing year and has cast off the buying power they once possessed......all because the need to "gotta have it so I can be BMOC" has completely beaten into oblivion common sense and consumer bargaining savvy.

As long as US consumers keep just handing over rediculous amounts of cash to the carpetbagging manufacturers these rediculous prices are going to continue skyrocketing upward.

And to those who cite that it is all a matter of "supply and demand" then to those folks I say you only have 1/2 of the intended understanding of that principle. The law of supply and demand is a two way street. It's function isn't just to favor the manufacturer which the US consumers apparently only seem to understand with the senseless overpaying they do.

It also works the other way as well.....the consumer doesn't have to wait until he / she is broke to stop buying product. The principle can also be exercised by consumers refusing to buy the overpriced product so that the manufacturers inventory stockpiles as a result of stagnant sales.

If folks wouldn't just jump at every new product put on the market the moment it hits the shelf at the MSRP price-point and rather instead just learn to be patient and ignore the stuff, that crap will stockpile real quick and drive the prices way down.

But no...BMOC ego and the obssessive compulsive pathetic infantile need to always one-up the next guy is the only thing that is the focus of the American consumer anymore....nothing like the proverbial selling of your soul to the Great Imposter.

I'm not a mechanic. But I have shelled out a lot of money on mod parts for cars over the years. N wat I can tell u is this much.
NO THEY DON'T FIGURE since u bought a 30k car u can afford a lil more. That's not it at all. N no u
Dual intakes don't call for that much of a premium. N its not cuz nissan is almost an infiniti. Lol. Lol
You people are funny for real.
The Z is the only "2 seat hard top true sports coupe". Let me stress that again for the purists, mechanical engineers n others that luv to argue. The Z is the only 2 seat hard top true sports car in a 30 to 40k price range. 2+2 are gt cars. Convertibles have a different driving dynamic from coupes. So cars that we pretend to be competition like bmw Z4 n Z8, Honda S2000, mazda rx8 pontiac solstice. All either fall into the gt performance meaning 2+2 or gt roadsters which mean topless sports.
Again this is a whole seperate driving experience altogether.
NOW, because the Z has no competition in within 5k of its top price. The bimmer starts at 45k n the cayman at 60k and lotus 50k. this leaves NISSAN the sole proprietor of the "AFFORDABLE TRUE SPORTS CAR." the whole 900 to 600 in 10 years is bogus. I seen body kits go from 1600 to 400 in 5 years.
I seen intakes go from 399 to 199 in 1 year.
The Z can afford to jack prices n hold out on dropping prices cuz there is no competition. See how the car magazines struggle to find a real comparo car. They can't. So they use the cayman and mustang as comparison cars.
Totally unfair. The porsche costs 35k to build. The Z costs right around 18k to build.(before options) Its gonna be more refined. The mustang is a total gt. Not fair.
Anyway... point is. The exclusivity of the car type brings up cost and its bogus imho.
But ur stuck between a rock n a hardplace. If u holdout? Aftermarket won't produce many parts. If u buy u get more parts for cars. 1st year modders get raped. Cuz they have to pay forinitial r&d cost recovery. Once that's paid off. Prices go down.
I got chewed out here by a couple of fruits one time for saying 1st year mods are way to expensive n the companies rape your pockets. Lol. Guys were crying like they own stillen stock or somethin. I modded 6 cars and the price trend is the same. High on 1st year. Just like defects on cars are highest on 1st year models. This is a fact. You can use kelly blue book, true delta or any car mag. They will tell u 1st year buyers are guinea pigs to the function n reliabilty of the cars. If u buy a 1st year car? Its best to buy in the 3rd quarter...
My question is... do u guys really race? Or do u mod to say I did it First? Or is it u just wanna be text book racers that picked up a lot of mod terminology then come on here n make people think u can drive those cars you own by having a slight edge on technical terminologies n crap.
More important than mods is having the skill to control a car like this
Hone the skill

A person can own an expensive car and still be cheap.

Bud the group that's hitting u now has there own agenda. The more u try to make them understand where u comin from the more they gonna treat u like ur the idiot.
This forum is a cool place if ur just trying to learn from other peoples mistakes on the 1st year model or if u need tips on performing a mod from one of the "real seasoned tuners".
These guys are bringing this hybrid mustang/bimmer mentality into the import tuner culture.
I c ur point n only 5% will. Lol
Its this one sided mentality on this forum that is the tip of the iceberg of american close mindedness. This is why the world hates us. Arrogance and the constant need to belittle the next man to feel better about oneself. Instead of seeing ur point. Ur naive. Oh u expect too much. Like how dumb is that. If u look at the full spectrum of wat this man is saying. He's right. Jeeeez! N he's not stating opinions he stating facts. With an opinion as a sub context. Not vice versa like the rest of u guys.

paying 2 k for an exhaust for me is to much why? because its just 6-7 feet of pipes welded together. im sure it doesnt cost more then 10% of the price to manufacture the part.

There's so much misinformation in this post I woudn't even know where to start. If you think the Z is an exclusive sports car in which manufactures are taking advantage of the owners... you need to take another look.

Absolutely. I have seen it done over and over.

I don't see how you come to your conclusions. What agenda do you think everyone in this thread has? Do you think the majority of the members on this forum prefer to pay more money and are trying to justify themselves? Nobody is trying to make the OP feel like an idiot. The point that was trying to be made is that prices are not overpriced like the OP is claiming.

Where I see your viewpoint on this matter I can assure you it costs significantly more than you think to manufacture such a part. The margins are nowhere near that range. Take in to consideration R&D, material costs, pruduction costs, and shipping.

As a rule of thumb that I use most manufacturers and some retailers build in 20-35% of profit in any product at a minimum. This is from my experiences... Granted if you get quoted that say (hypothetically speaking) for instance KW V3's are $2100.00 retail I am pretty sure you can haggle them down to $1800 and even $1700 if your good!!! its all in the deal. I bought my KW V3's for my s2000 for $1650 shipped and they retailed for $2100+... so the money is there its just whether or not you can work a relationship and a good deal. the only way these retailers will survive is good old fashion word of mouth. I know this for a fact... Get a good deal and a customer will speak loudly about what a great deal they got and then it becomes a numbers game... quantity over quality!

Put the mobile down and step away from the keyboard! Breath in, breath out. It'll be ok!

And an iPod is nothing more than some plastic and some melted sand, but many don't blink at paying $400 for one.

Remove R&D time/money from the picture and you're left with materials and know-how. Most anyone can get the materials for a car project, but the know-how to put it together isn't rattling around in everyone's head, nor is the experience in doing so. You have to weigh the cost of an item/service against what's valuable to you. With a Helm's manual, I could take apart an engine and replace a ring... but it's worth significantly more to me to pay someone $2k to do it than spend the next 2 weeks solid in the driveway taking the time to do it myself. I can figure out how, and the materials/tools are easy enough to get, but my lack of experience in taking apart more than one or two engines in my lifetime means I'm going to be sloooow at it.

Sure, an exhaust is just a few bent/welded pipes, but it took time/money for someone to measure everything, test it, go through several prototypes, etc. They have to be a good welder if you want it to last (particularly stainless/titanium)... this comes from experience and not overnight. They have to have the right tools to bend it and weld it... this is usually money spent over many years to put together a full workshop.

Companies manufacture items to make a profit, not just enough so they can pay their employees an hourly wage. Figure two people working full-time on an exhaust, and let's say it takes two weeks for them to get something they're happy with (probably quite short, in reality). That's 160 hours worth of work and even at a paltry $10/hr that's $1,600 in the hole right there. Add in cost of only two prototypes worth of material... say $400. You're ready to start producing, but you're $2k down. Let's say hand production costs 6 hours (@ $10/hr) and $200 in materials... that catback exhaust you just bought for $320 shipped cost $260 to produce and $30 to ship. The owner sits back and enjoys his high-end profit of $30/exhaust. Woo hoo! He can now afford to purchase a couple six-packs of Corona and sit in his hammock for another hour.

But what about automation, you say? Fine, they automate it and cut the production time per exhaust down to 1 hour. Who paid for the multi-million $ robot welder that put it together? As the company owner, now you're hoping you can sell in quantity to make those small per-exhaust profits add up to pay for the capital equipment you're now leasing to lower the production times and raise your profit margin. And so on, ad infinitum...

I've been a business owner for over 7 years now and everything above is the [/u]simplified[/u] version. A while back I purchased a $30k laser engraving/cutting system with the knowledge it was not going to pay itself back immediately. Clients who knew I had it now expected me to work for less profit because they assumed I would make it up in quantity. Its a viscous cycle. One guy asked me to give him one of my LED lighting designs because "It's only a bunch of LEDs and those are dirt cheap." I replied with "Fine... if it's just a bunch of dirt cheap LEDs with nothing spent on R&D, then go design it yourself! don't forget to le me know how that turned out for you..."

But don't think that all items are cheap to manufacture simply because the components are inexpensive. Yes, charging $10k for a Lamborghini's exhaust may seem hugely expensive, but how much time/energy/money went into its development for a market that may sell 100 total? Sure, the profit margin is still higher for that exhaust than for a Neon's exhaust, but the risk was greater, too... what if only 50 people decided to buy instead of the projected 100? You're out some serious cash, particularly if you haven't paid off the R&D or capitol equipment yet.

You know guys, there is an upside to 'high' prices, however one chooses to define that. High prices provide an incentive to produce quality parts. Think about it. Imagine that you're in the exhaust manufacturing business, and market research indicates that 370Z owners are cheapskates who are, on average, only willing to pay, say, $50 for an exhaust. What incentive do you have to actually put the resources into producing a quality exhaust? In fact, you probably wouldn't even be bothered to produce any exhaust for this car. It's just not a market worth tapping into. Now imagine that 370Z owners are, on average, willing to dish out $1500 to upgrade their exhausts, and you happen to know that each exhaust will only cost you about $600 to produce (incl. development costs, material, labor, marketing, etc.). In other words, there's a real profit opportunity here. Suddenly, there's an incentive to make an exhaust. And not just any exhaust -- there's an incentive to make a high-quality exhaust, because you know that with margins like that, there are bound to be others who want to get in on the action for a slice of the pie. i.e., there will be competition, and competition tends to drive quality.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that profit, 'excessive' as some may find it to be, is what drives production and the availability of goods and services. Indeed, the whole problem with socialism (IMO) is that it fails to recognize that without profit-opportunity, there is little motivation to be productive.

Another upside is that high prices have a natural poseur-prohibitive effect. But I'll leave that one for another day.

None of this is anything new...Who here remembers the days of SR5's, Bugs, BBS and Webers not to mention wink mirrors. :p

Perfect example. I don't think it could be explained any better ;) Keep in mind that the numbers he mentioned are only a loose figure. In most cases I have seen overhead to make most products on the market you see costs significantly more. Companies go through multiple prototypes each of which are tested before the final design is released. Don't you wonder how a company like Trust/Greddy had to file for bankruptcy not that long ago? This is a company I had/have always looked at as being one of the more successful companies in the aftermarket parts industry. If they were making 90% profit margins do you really think they would be struggling to keep their doors open? Where do you think all of that debt came from? There is a great deal more time and money that goes into the parts that are available.

I think people are mixing overhead expenses and profit together. Everything a company sells has overhead attached to it as well as profit. If a manufactuer charges $1000 dollars for an exhaust and is costs them $500 dollars to make it...is that 100% profit? No..unless they have zero overhead. They have to pay the bills: 1)salaries, 2) utililities, 3) leased spaces, 4) R&D, 5)benefits for employees, etc..the list goes on and on and on. These are all attached to the sale of any product. Its just the cost of doing business. I work for a government contractor..I am a "product" to the government. They pay my company TWICE what I make.....and yet my company only see an 11% profit on my employment as a direct charge to the government as specified by the contract. The rest goes towards benefits, my office space, computer...everything I need to function.

This is why online wholesalers can sell stuff so much cheaper than Best Buy....they have almost no overhead to recoup.

You're totally right. There are lots of overhead costs that go into each product a company makes.

The bottom line is that there is enough competition in the Z aftermarket space to keep prices in check. Just look at our vendors... they consistently try to offer us the lowest possible prices and take market share away from the others.

My point in bringing up overhead expenses was to point out that its not just a few pieces of piping thrown together and charging 10x as much for what the material costs was. A lot of people have the view point that if the piping costs $200 in material and the exhausts costs $2000 then they are making $1800 profit thus having a tremendous margin (extreme example I know). Yes overhead is just part of the cost of doing business, but it is also factored into the sale price. Some parts take longer to make whether it be by R&D or actual production time. This overhead is usually taken into consideration when a company prices an item. I know we are on the same page here, just trying to clarify ;)

Some how, I skipped over your entire thread while I was typing mine hehe. I agree with you. I was also trying to point out overhead is part of the sale price and isnt considered profit.