Originally Posted by ClevelandCWRU (Post 1366747)

Cool off buddy, its just science

Originally Posted by toxik (Post 1366995)

I get it... its an oil cooler thread. I suggest cooling off by air and by water Dan. :icon17:

Originally Posted by Cmike2780 (Post 1366966)

Why over complicate matters. Depending on your driving habits, you don't necessarily "need" either one for street use. The track or track like conditions has already proven the air cooled units to be effective depending on the unit and purpose. Some are in fact too effective, in which case a thermal plate is required to prevent over cooling. Using both is kind of like using steamroller to hammer in a nail.

Originally Posted by wstar (Post 1366908)

We all get science, none of us are morons here, and quite a few of us have engineering and scientific backgrounds. The reason he's getting miffed is because you're out here touting your credentials as giving you some magic understanding that mere mortals cannot hope to achieve about this subject.

If there's a reason that running Nissan's specific ester oil blend is better for the friction properties of the VVEL heads than other quality synthetic ester-blend lubricants, we'd love to hear about it. Nissan's basic science work that we've seen in the PDFs combined with available data from oil mfgs don't even begin to answer that question in a rigorous manner, in either direction. Empirically though, nobody's gone and shown a dyno power dropoff from switching off of Nissan Ester either.

To expound on the science part: what they show in the paper is that (a) their nifty H-free DLC does better than two other types of surface material regardless of the oil type used (b) their PAO + ester blend does better than regular oil regardless of the surface type, and (c) (DUH) the best results in the test come from combining the two best-tested: their PAO + ester and their H-free DLC.

What the paper does not at all address for our pragmatic needs: (1) Is their PAO + 1% glycerol mono-oleate the *only* variety of engine lubricant that can reach frictions levels this low or lower in combination with their H-free DLC? (2) More specifically, was it really exactly 1% glycerol mono-oleate that works, or do other percentages of other similar esters work? (3) Is glycerol mono-oleate, or another equal-performing ester in tests with H-free DLC, a commonly used ester in ester-blended oils from other manufacturers?

You get the idea. Unless Nissan and/or other oil manufacturers want to take their science (and engineering) reporting to the next level and answer the Practical Questions That Matter To Us, we have to rely on empirical data from running these engines in the real world with various oils, which so far does not fall in favor of Nissan Ester Oil.

Originally Posted by wstar (Post 1367053)

Adding the water cooler seems like an even better option to me (assuming it isn't ridiculously overpriced) because it may just let me leave my 19-row in place, get sufficient track cooling, and actually help with the overcooling in cold situations rather than hurt.

Originally Posted by ClevelandCWRU (Post 1367071)

Right, but I'm not endorsing their results, rather I was willing to provide a venue to see the published results of the studies where a technology that was commercialized specifically for the engine in our cars...and I suppose, to a degree, my interpretation of the findings.

The questions you seek answers too go beyond what would typically be published...ever. The answers are proprietary, and are outside the scope of the experiment, which was to determine the effect of a particular friction modifier compared to other conditions.

I understand your questions, but they are far "downstream" from this type of research in the whole scheme of R&D. They fit in as a way that further develops an existing technology, finding the best, perfect combination. The research described in the papers is how technology emerges, these proof of concept experiments. A scientist finds a probable breakthrough, either through theory or pure accident, sees the potential and conducts an experiment to prove the concept.

You have to understand the type of research it is, and I genuinely don't mean that in any condescending way. It's framing the issue in order to see the meaning in its results. If you are expecting to be able find the recipe for a perfect oil mixture, or hoping to see a comparison of brands of oil in the VQ37, or the effects of > 1% or < 1% you will be sorely disappointed.

Originally Posted by 2011 Nismo#91 (Post 1367094)

This seems like the best option to me, kinda best of both worlds. And the one I'd go with depending on how the oil/water cooler performs and costs.

Originally Posted by onzedge (Post 1367106)

I would worry about having enough clearance with the oil/water thing-a-ma-jiggy and a sandwich plate dealy-bob.

Originally Posted by wstar (Post 1367053)

With the existing air coolers, the thermostatic sandwich plate isn't enough when the weather gets cold though, you need a block-off plate for the front usually as well.

You're right once you've paid the risk cost of running lines out front for an air cooler, you could just as easily upsize the cooler if you need to instead of adding on a water cooler.

However: I originally installed a 19-row air cooler (+thermo plate, and now +blockoff plate too in the colder months) for street and light track use, and I want a bit more cooling before next summer. If we didn't have an easy water kit, I'd probably just bump up to a 25 or 34 and need to use blockoff plates more often. Adding the water cooler seems like an even better option to me (assuming it isn't ridiculously overpriced) because it may just let me leave my 19-row in place, get sufficient track cooling, and actually help with the overcooling in cold situations rather than hurt.

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s (Post 1367125)

This is what I would like to do if this oil/water cooler is somewhat effective and can be easily and cheaply retrofitted. It would allow me to at least go to a track without investing in an air/oil cooler for a little bit just to get the experience. Then I could later just add a 19 row cooler and not necessarily have to go up to 25 row.

Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1367383)

I do not like the idea of stacking the systems, but I will reserve judgment until I actually see how it is implemented.