Well known fact. No source needed.

I didn't hear the rest of this conversation, but it sounds like they are talking about resting your foot on the clutch pedal rather than holding the clutch pedal down all the way. I could see how the first option could cause a problem, but still don't understand how the second one could.

They meant pressed all the way in. I'll paste the rest of it.

Cool, thanks. Can someone explain why this is the case (mechanically)?

I did this once by accident :driving:
..the car still works. Not sure if it did any damage. Anyone?

Like others have said - it's pretty common knowledge.

Car in neutral at ANY speed = throttle body is default to idling to keep engine running. Idling uses fuel regardless if your car is stopped or coasting since it makes the engine stay at a certain rpm.

Car coasting at speed in gear means the throttle body is actually shut off at this point if you are coasting and have your foot off the gas. Coasting in gear wastes no gas since the throttle body is completely shut.

You can actually test this out yourself in the 370z if you put our little computer thing to the real time mpg bar. Coast in idle then coast in gear - Coasting in gear will yield a higher mpg than coasting in neutral.

yep exactly what happened on my rsx. throw-out bearing failed due to being lazy and holding the clutch all the way in at lights, stop signs, etc. had to replace my entire clutch for ~$1500. :(

not bad at all. heck i do it all the time in my dd. basically while braking i blip the throttle just a hair and put into neutral without using the clutch. :tup:

you can even shift up without your clutch if you can get the rev's perfect. :p

Well, since i have syncro rev match, and its rev's should be perfect all the time, i can do this on my 370z?

Im sure its not recommended, but would it hurt the transmission? would it even let me?

in tractor trailors you never have to use the clutch unless you are stopped. i dont know if its the same with cars though.

Hahaha, not recommended but u can try it. :D

No thanks. But I really want to know if it works, so I nominate brado.:tup:

Doesn't synchro rev only work when the clutch is in?

haha its not gonna be me, how about you try it. i have done it in an old chevy truck though.

They often have straight cut gears and/or no synchros. That's why they can shift without using the clutch without damaging anything. If you can rev match properly you can shift without it.

On a car with synchros (pretty much all production passenger vehicles) this is REALLY BAD for them. Syncros are typically brass or similar (read: soft) and shifting under stress chews them up.

Shifting into neutral without the clutch, on the other hand, doesn't damage anything. They synchros don't do anything when you pull it out of gear, just when you're putting it in.

Not sure... when I did it on my dd (no SRM) I sounded like a dogbox. :D one blip to get it out of gear and another blip to get to the next gear. It was a rough shift. Lol. Not bad like a newb learning MT though. :D

google
 

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Learn How to Drive a Manual Transmission

resurrect..
 

Resurrecting an old thread but I thought that'd be better than starting another one. Curious on how you guys do a normal, flat-surface start in 1st. More vs. Less slip.

Had my Z for a month. My 2nd manual but the first one (WRX) I only had for a couple of years (bought new) to about 25k miles, so not long enough to understand long-term effects. Had a few bikes too, so clutches there but only about 10k total miles on them, not enough to know long-term.

Buddy at work has a daily-driver Cobalt but also a nice Mustang GT/CS that he drives on nice days. Both are manuals. I notice that when he drives, he uses a lot more revs & slip than I do to get going. Not a lot, perhaps 1,400-1,600 RPM for the 'stang, perhaps 2000-2200 for the Cobalt. Then clutch out smooth, but somewhat slowly -perhaps 2 or 3 seconds of slip - and go. Makes for a very smooth takeoff. A fast launch is more revs, but more or less the same amount of slippage. AFAIK, he's never had any clutch problems and he's had manuals for several years now.

I've got it in my head that I want the least RPM and least slippage I can get away with. So when I take off, I'm basically starting at idle (unless it's on a hill, then there's got to be gas). Just at the friction point I'm feathering the gas and coming off the clutch smoothly but quickly, perhaps 1-1.5 seconds for a normal, flat take-off. So by 1k RPM, I'm off the clutch and I'm applying gas to move. But in doing this sometimes I do get a bit of clutch chatter or rattle/clunk from the transmission when I let the RPM's fall too close to stalling. Though I have never stalled my Z. A fast launch would involve 2000-2500 RPM's and a very fast clutch release.

So, who's doing it right?

My buddy's method does result in smoother takeoffs, so I'm thinking his technique is superior. But I've got it in my head that slipping like that is a bad thing for the clutch. While I won't likely have this car past 50-60k miles, I would rather not wear out the clutch (or transmission) prematurely.

Do I need to chill out on 'saving' the clutch and purposefully get the revs up a bit more with a bit more slip, for the sake of smoothness? Or is the low-slip method better, but I just need to work on more finesse with the clutch/throttle to avoid chattering/clunking? :tiphat:

it's not a contest who can start the car at lower rpm. on the Z i rev considerably higher than my G and engagement duration is about a second longer. why? flywheel is lighter so it takes a tad longer to get the momentum going.

also check out the helper-spring mod. that might help your situation too as the clutch pedal feel is :icon14: on the Z until you remove/replace that spring. :) GL!

I have found (and read on here) that the Z doesn't have much low end torque, so you should really be giving it a little more gas on starts. 2K RPM is probably a good rough marker to shoot for. I also agree with the other poster about the clutch helper spring, it makes a HUGE difference in clutch feel and knowing when you hit the engagement point.

While we're on the topic of MT, can someone answer this question for me. I feel dumb for asking...

In the movie "Back To The Future" there are several scenes where you see Marty in the DeLorean doing a fast takeoff. They show a shot of the pedals and what he does his release the clutch super fast and jam on the gas right after. I feel like that's not possible and the car would stall in real life. Is this just a movie magic thing or is really possible to get a fast start that way by whipping out the clutch and jamming on the gas like that?

referring to this I assume for anyone who has no clue. Skip to 1:20

in the future all is backwards.

Thanks for the good advice, guys. :tup:

No, I don't really treat it as a contest to see who can start at the lower RPM, I just want to drive my car correctly. Seems like I need to get rid of the "mustn't slip the clutch" mentality and give her a bit more gas on normal takeoffs.

Thanks!:tiphat:

yah, unless you're smelling the clutch every time you're not smoking your clutch.

Bad habit that i used to get away with in my S2000: Down shifting into first gear at 5mph when needing to accelerate from a slow roll.

Depends on the car. On my mustang I can actually start the car moving with no gas. I've seen the same thing in vettes.

most street cars you can

The z can be started like that too I think...very very slow engage of clutch though.

And to Augustus, don't worry you can safely rev it up to 1500 rpm even and engage it at that point if you want a bit smoother shifts.

Not with a straight clutch drop. Maybe if you ease into it.


Unless by "most street cars" you are talking about all the automatics:bowrofl:

:bowrofl: Yes though very slow engagement of clutch will allow that. (7-10 seconds in my scion)

yah, one thing to remember is how you engage 1st gear from standstill will also affect how you shift into 2nd gear. if you give a nice rev and smoothly engage 1st, build healthy speed, then shifting into 2nd will be easier.

if one bogs 1st gear and applies more throttle to make up for the slower start, one will need to lengthen wait time for flywheel spin down into 2nd gear. hope that makes sense.

shutup red, :gtfo2: :icon17: you know wat i meant kiddo.

:iagree:

Thanks for the advice.

So at what RPM does excessive clutch slipping really start to cause damage to the Z's clutch?

it can start even 1500 if you ride the clutch long enough.

That's tough to answer because you can damage the clutch by riding it at 1500 rpm and 5000 rpm. 5000 will put more of a load on there which leads to more damange. But say you slip the clutch for 5 seconds at 5000 rpm and slip it at 1500 rpm for 20 seconds. Then i'm not sure which one is worse.

All RPMs cause 'damage' to the clutch - the clutch is a friction disk that wears every time you use it, just like your brake pads do. Don't be terribly afraid of the wear - it is designed to function that way. If you're excessively slipping the clutch at high RPMs, you're causing more wear. For example, you can cause the same amount of wear to the clutch by slipping it for 2 seconds at 5K RPM - as you would by slipping it for 6 seconds at a more generous 1800-2000RPM.

I sometimes double-blip the throttle when I take off. One blip to about 2K as I let off the clutch and feel the engagement, and immediately the second blip is to catch and hold the RPM around the 1500RPM mark as I accelerate and slip for about 2 seconds or so. I don't find myself doing this on other MT cars - cars like BMWs and Audis have much more linear throttle response. Where as the throttle on our cars is a little crazy and inconsistent and can feel different every 20 minutes.

There is nothing wrong with slipping the clutch. 2 seconds on a flat road at lower revs, and about 3 seconds on a hill with moderate revs is okay. You'll know if you're cooking the clutch...burned clutch smells like tire smoke + garbage. But again, it takes quite a bit of stupidity to cook a clutch during normal driving.

Yeah, ZMan & kenchan, that's what I was wondering.

Like if there was sort of an optimal guideline for a normal speed, low-impact, standard start. I realize that every situation is a little different; desired 'launch' speed, uphill/downhill start, ambient temps, traffic conditions, vehicle loading, whether there's a hottie in the lane next to you, etc.

So engaging the clutch at 1,200 -1,500 RPM, do you allow the RPM's to fall a bit as the clutch engages and the car begins moving? Or do you modulate the throttle to keep the RPM's steady as you fully engage the clutch? Tough question, I realize.

With my near-bog technique/habit, I'm modulating the throttle to keep it around 1k, as I've got to to keep it from stalling.

Far more torque down low than a Z to allow either car to just get on up and go off the clutch.

Isn't that necessary in an S2K? In a 370Z you can coast at 5MPH without even a slight buck and comfortably accelerate - I do this a lot at yield, slow down, school bumps, and even stop signs - no qualms from the car. Again, that's because the Z has enough torque to maintain the momentum in 2nd gear at 5MPH.

I've driven an S2000 ages ago, and I recall it not liking being in 2nd gear at anything below 5MPH, you felt it as soon you slowed down past 10MPH in fact.