Driving in winter... (mild 56K warning)
 

... is not the greatest idea. Especially with stock tires.

Well, winter wouldn't really be a part of the problem too much.

I always told myself I would be the very last person to post a crash thread. Unfortunately, I'm not, so here's the story.

About 10 days ago, I was driving down to my house from the girlfriend's. It was snowing outside, and I was on a large road where any of the snow would be endlessly run over by cars and turned to water and slush. As I reach the top of the crest, I've lost some speed. Limit's 40, so I give a little gas since I was at 30. In retrospect, I should have stayed at 30.

While I was on the gas, I hit a bump on top of the road and just start to hydroplane all over the place. Well, actually, I barely even slid that much, but I hit the curb and bounce off into oncoming traffic lanes. If I had to describe
how I hit it, imagine this:

You're facing straight along the road. Hydroplane happens, and you begin to turn left. The wheel hits the curb, and you spin right and stop in the opposite lanes. Address the following, a dramatic, beautiful reconstruction of the event.

front
____
\___\----|
_\car-\---| curb
__\___\---|

When I finally come to a stop, I look in front and in back. There was no traffic for at least a quarter mile more in either direction. In all my life I have never felt a feeling of relief at my insanely good luck. A guy in a minivan comes to check up on me. I manage to limp home on the snowy subdivision roads (mind you I had basically crashed 15 seconds from home).

I think to myself, maybe if I had just pushed in the clutch and not hit the brakes so hard, I'd be fine, but it was too late for that. I'm already thinking of the worst case scenario, I've smashed up the passenger side panels and it's going to be a + $10K repair. VDC was off, and the "VDC is working" light (or the slip light, I don't know) was on.



I looked around at the car and everything was fine, no body damage. I'm lucky there. But I saw this (sorry about the terrible lighting and huge images):

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_g-EkkiJXVhM/TS...109_115216.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_g-EkkiJXVhM/TS...109_115308.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_g-EkkiJXVhM/TS...109_115319.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_g-EkkiJXVhM/TS...109_115338.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_g-EkkiJXVhM/TS...109_115354.jpg


As you can (or can't) see, the wheel itself is damaged, but not too badly. Regardless, it still has to be scrapped, since it's heavily distorted (but it still seems to hold air). The obvious part is that it's toeing out significantly; at least five degrees. At this rate, I'd be afraid to drive it over 20 mph for fear of the tire peeling right off while I'm moving.

I am trying to get a hold of a couple buddies for their jacks so I can get a clear look at the suspension components, as taking off the wheel itself also accomplishes little.

I'm estimating a repair (in parts) at 500-1000 dollars... and the labor to skyrocket the price into the 4000-5000 range. I've already contacted RCZ about a set of stock wheels (would you believe the dealer charged me 1100 for a single wheel?).

So how about it, guys? Did I **** up bad? Also, suggestions as for how to fix it? Maybe it's a DIY project. Probably not.

Yikes. That sucks.

You need to get it up on a lift to assess suspension damage. Sometimes when you hit the wheel like that you can really do a lot more damage than you'd think.

That's what I was thinking. Even hitting the curb at 30-35 has managed to screw it up like this, the best I can hope for is that the chassis isn't damaged.

Sorry to hear buddy, get your Z checked into the Doctor soon :)

You just lost control on a slippery road... Our cars will not hydroplane at ~30mph unless your thread on the tires was close to slicks... Wth was VDC off for anyways....

But you surely damaged more then just the wheel. I would say no DIY as you need proper tools to make sure everything is aligned.

VDC was off after the crash. I was in the far right lane, so I didn't even have to "hydroplane" or slide any significant distance to hit the curb.

I would definitely have to get under the thing to see.

Prompts a quick note on my experience yesterday in Philly. Only about 1 inch snow on my driveway.

My 370Z was in the garage but i needed to move it onto my driveway to get a signal for my GPS. I backed out so that I was no more than 8 feet onto my driveway.......Trying to go the 8Ft to get back into my garage was a real challenge.

I ended up completely off my drive way (all 4 wheels) onto my front lawn as the car virtually went sideways in the snow. Went down a 1-2ft slope in my lawn and ended up on my neighbor's front lawn.

Top speed was no more than 3-5 mph but the more i tried to advance forward the more I went sideways.

1.5 hours later I made it back into my garage.....unbelievable!!

I was outside for an hour and a half shoveling the 2 inches on my driveway to get in after the crash. The incline is barely 10 degrees. The tires really are terrible on snow. I drive barely once or twice during the winter with the Z, and it just so happened to snow an hour before I left.

Stories like this make me cringe especially since we are supposed to get up to 5 inches across the Atlanta area tomorrow. Hope everything turns out alright and there isn't any major damage

Be careful in the snow. I heard Blizzaks do a lot if you have them.

Thanks for the concern, though. I hope it isn't major either. :tiphat:

Def get the suspension and such checked out.
Sorry about what happened.

Summer tires + Winter (North) = FAIL

However this Winter has not been friendly to any area even in the South.

Sorry about that but it is not wise at all to drive with Summer tires in those conditions, hopefully no more damage happen to your car.

Usually I never have problems. First time for everything, I guess.

You'll be lucky if you didn't damage your frame!
Glad you're okay!

You got that right. At least I have another DD. Probably wont drive the Z for several days.

My bet is that there are some bends in the suspension hardware such as the camber arms or toe control arm. That really stinks though, just one of the perils that need to be respected.

Wish I could say the same

Sorry to hear
 

but jeez for 1-2k a winter car looks good in retrospect.

My best guess is that it would be the toe control arm. I got a good look at the camber arm and it looked fine. I wasn't going that fast and the stock camber arms are pretty beefy. But, like I said, nothing definitive yet.

:iagree:
My friend is selling a Forester for 3k. It's sounding like an excellent proposition right now.

LOVE my Blizzaks. Drive past FWD cars all day long in the snow.

I'm sure what happened was scary and i'm glad you're ok, it surely could have been a lot worse.

Your first mistake was not getting a proper winter setup if this is your only car. Your 2nd mistake was leaving your girlfriend's house when it was snowing, since you have summer tires.

I drive my Z in the snow with snow tires, and it gets annoying having idiots come up to me and say 'OMG thats such a bad car in snow, you should really be careful.' but really, its things like this that promote that stereotype that RWD cars are bad in snow and are dangerous. And even more so, its things like this that make my insurance rates high. accidents happen. but every time someone crashes a Z because they turned VDC off or decided to do something stupid, it makes our insurance rates go up.

the car didn't hydroplane. If you've ever walked on a hardwood floor with slippery socks... well thats about as much traction as you have with summer tires in snow. next time, stay over at your girlfriend's house, or just dont' cheap out and buy a proper winter setup if it's your only car.

any money you saved by not getting snow tires, you will spend on repairs.

:iagree:

Or just get a set of wheels and winter tires for less then half. I got a set of wheels and Blizzaks at TireRack for about $1200 last winter. Perfect in the Chicago winter. But even Blizzaks won't save you if you switch of VDC...

wait hold on a second, why was VDC off?

I was wondering about that as well, but that's what the OP mentioned in his first post

i can understand people turning it off to go for a spirited summer drive, but like... to drive in snow....? maybe the tires were slipping so much that VDC wasn't even letting the car move.

Check the camber arm link, it is designed to bend in case of impact with a curb.

OP, sorry about what happened.

Reading through the thread I can't quite believe how few have snow/winter tires. Being a California native, snow does not come to me, but I go to the snow. Back when I did go up to Lake Tahoe, in my 280Z, and ski in winter, I had another set of stock wheels with snow tires upon them that I'd change out. Granted, four trips in one season was a lot. Yes it cost extra to a college kid, but I did not have collision insurance, so I figured it was money well spent. So how come folks who live in snow can not see the value of snow/winter tires I saw?

+1 for ascii art!!

When leaving the suburb, it was off. Indeed it was way too slippery to move (this is that kind of snow that melts on the bottom layer and powdery top layer, the worst kind of snow, probably second worst only to black ice or similar). Once I got out of the neighborhood, though, I switched it back on.

Also, earlier I mentioned, the VDC off indicator and the slip indicator light was on after the impact. It was on otherwise.

Although it's foolish to say this now, I rarely, if ever, drive the 370Z out in snow. It just happened to snow when I was leaving. Should definitely take the advice of Jeffblue and either stay over or buy out some Blizzaks.

My friend and I lifted the car up on jacks and could not, for our lives, see anything clearly. One of the links seemed to have been moved, but it was really hard to tell, since we're not exactly trained in this sort of thing. It's so clearly misaligned but I couldn't see anything, he couldn't see anything.

Either way it has to go to a repair shop because this is out of our scope.

Since I bought the car last September, I have been amazed that Nissan would sell the stock Z with summer tires. Yes, other ($100+k) sports cars also do that, but the Z is priced to sell to less affluent people, especially young people who might not understand the limits of summer tires or who can't afford another $1,000+ for a set of all weathers or snows.

I am also surprised that Nissan doesn't have a warning with the car that the stock tires become stiff and lose traction when cold and the outside temp is under 50 deg F.

While it is possible to drive in the winter on stock summer tires, it is at best, a big risk. The stock tires are tricky in the summer on wet roads. While they stick to dry pavement, they hydroplane very easily at speed.

I drive my car all year round (except when the snow is on the road). My first "mod" was a set of Michelin Pilot Sport A/W Plus tires. They are designed for both speed and safe driving in cold weather and on wet or moderately (less than 3") snowy roads.

Since this forum gets a wide variety of Z owners (age and interest), it is a useful view of the people who buy and drive Z's. Clearly, at least based on our postings, many Z owners drive their cars in all sorts of weather and road conditions. Dealers, at least my dealer, didn't know anything about the limits that the stock tires put on using the car. Nissan also failed to point out this issue.

The Bridgstones are expensive tires. They are not really cheaper than the ultra-high performance all-weather tires. I think it would be a service to all of us for Nissan to install A/W tires on Z's. Those owners who plan to agressively track their cars will buy race tires anyway. We would all be better off an safer year 'round if the cars came with tires that work in winter.

Just my 2 cents.

It's a performance car so it warrants performance tires. The buyer should know that.

From the owner's manual.

TIRE EQUIPMENT
SUMMER tires have a tread designed to provide
superior performance on dry pavement. However,
the performance of these tires will be
substantially reduced in snowy and icy conditions.
If you operate your vehicle on snowy or icy
roads, NISSAN recommends the use of MUD &
SNOWor ALL SEASON tires on all four wheels.
Consult a NISSAN dealer for the tire type, size,
speed rating and availability information.
For additional traction on icy roads, studded
tires may be used. However, some U.S. states
and Canadian provinces prohibit their use.
Check local, state and provincial laws before
installing studded tires.

Also

The VDC system is not a substitute .
for winter tires or tire chains on a
snow covered road.

:iagree::owned: +rep

when i got the car, after driving it home and enjoying it a bit, i sat down and browsed the manual. something you should consider before saying that the information was not made available to you.

This is 2 seat sports car, clearly practicality isn't the top concern. And Nissan isn't in the hand holding business; knowing that summer tires are no good in the winter and planning around this knowledge is well within the realm of personal responsibility.

You should have told your girlfriend, "I can't possibly go home because it's too dangerous. Let's go to bed!":happydance:

hah i don't think he'd have left yet unless he had already gotten that out of the way.:p

It is the BUYER'S responsibility to know what he is buying.
Entitlement FTL.
This isn't a watch, it's a 332HP car.

Already got the bedtime out of the way.

I was well aware of the summer tire problem when I researched the rubber that came wrapped around the sport package wheels. More or less it is my fault to drive the 370z out during clear conditions with the awareness it could have snowed.

I have also read all the manuals and etc. in the car over the course of a couple days after it was in the home garage.

Right now, I just have to get the wheel and suspension fixed up and ready to go. It's all I can do at this point.

I will not even look at the Z if there is any sign (even a cloud) when the temp is below 33F, or if there is any residual slush on the roads. Luckily this is rare in Seattle. I crashed my old Camaro SS on the snow/ice twice when I thought I knew what I was doing. It aint worth the risk.