Got a ticket. Cop Fail story. Looking on info on Va Laws
 

Slightly edited.

soooo, on my way to warrenton today, coming out of culpeper, I was doing the speed limit behind an old for pickup heading for 29 going 55mph or less @ 2500rpm. I saw ahead a state trooper backing into a sneaky spot on the right side of this 2 lane road. As I got up to him, he took one look at me and started pulling out before I was even past him. (Reason: I had no front tag displayed) He does not turn on his lights, but speeds to catch up. The 2 lane road turns into a devided hiway with 4 lanes total. I stay in the left lane behind the truck as we head for the on-ramp to Rt 29. The cop guns it and passed me on the left @ 70+ craining his neck to confirm I have no front plate. I turn on the ramp and look back to see him pulling a hard U-turn at the 1st break in the devide. I get on to 29 and make it about a mile before he races up behind me and kicks on his lights. I pull over and come to a stop, turn off my car and roll down my window.

The officer comes to my window and says "Licence and registration" I start to dig out my wallet and he says "Where is your front licence plate?". I hand him my drivers licence, look him in the eye and said "On the front". He turns and walks strait to the front of my car, looks down, and stairs for a full 5 seconds. He then comes back to my window and I hand him the registration. He then says "mmmmmmm well. How long have you had that exhaust?" I said "over 2 years". He tells me "It's louder then factory and I am going to have to write you a ticket" I looked at him and said "What in the hell are you talking about, are you telling me you heard my car from 30ft away with your windows up while I did the speed limit past you?" He nods his head and says "yep"

I will stop the story there because thats where I exploded and called him a lier and started to scream at him that every diesel in Culpeper is louder then me and half of them have cut there bed and have smokestacks coming up through them, every ricer in town has the real fart cannons and sound like fking mopeds going by and on and on, untill I gave him one more chance and said "You sure you dont want to make this a warning?" (head shake) Long and short is, I got him on the plate and he was mad and want to grasp at straws and lie to my face. I know he didt hear me, and my car was OFF when he came to my window and he could not have heard me and more when the pickup was infront of me as I puttered past him 30ft away with his windows up. I even started it for him afterwards while he was close and showed him how loud it realy was(At idle)

So on my ticket he wrote "46.2-1049 Defective/Inadequite Exhaust. Too Loud"

Here is how the law is writen:
"No person shall drive and no owner of a vehicle shall permit or allow the operation of any such vehicle on a highway unless it is equipped with an exhaust system in good working order and in constant operation to prevent excessive or unusual levels of noise; provided however, that for motor vehicles, such exhaust system shall be of a type installed as standard factory equipment, or comparable to that designed for use on the particular vehicle as standard factory equipment. An exhaust system shall not be deemed to prevent excessive or unusual noise if it permits the escape of noise in excess of that permitted by the standard factory equipment exhaust system of private passenger motor vehicles or trucks of standard make. "


Not worried about the noise, I know I am far from "excessive" even tho Va is gahy and does not give a solid db level for what excessive is. But:

"or comparable to that designed for use on the particular vehicle as standard factory equipment" I read this as, it has to made for my car, and do what my old one did. I can make the comparaison, it pipes my exhaust out the back through muffelrs to dampin the noise, just like my factory one, just designed better, stainless steel,and less bends. It was manufactured Just for my model and make, just like my factory one. Am I missing something or is that not comparaison enough? It's not like I strait piped it and it sounds like a Harley.

Since the officer lied to my face, I feel its my duty to call him out on in front of the whole court, If the prosecutor dosent just drop it before I get a chance. He did not hear me and only chased me down to write me a ticket for no front plate, after failing this, he lied about hearing my car and started to nit pick on dumb shyt.

I would love to hear any input, or info you guys have on exahust vs police in Va.

sux.. but sounds like you will be ok if you 'waste your time' in court.

you shouldn't go with the ' i pushed the button to show the plate' part of the story..:)

:icon18:

I have had a few friends that received tickets for aftermarket exhausts. I wouldn't recommend calling the officer a liar in court, judge probably won't appreciate that. I would just explain that you were pulled over because the officer believed you weren't running a front plate and never mentioned the exhaust until after he saw that you did have a plate. Also wouldn't hurt to get a db reading on your exhaust to show the court.

You are lucky the cop didn't get on his knees to see if you had that system :tiphat:

That right there will NEVER work in your favor.

Was this fauquier county sheriff? or state trooper? I assume this was 211.

If its fauquier county, youve got it in the bag if you fight it. I know the judge and he couldnt care less about stuff like that. Speeding or DUI on the other hand is a whole other ball game.

The state of va. has lots of safety nazi's. I lived there for about 13 years and am glad that I live out here in the wild west were they don't go crazy on stupid stuff like that. Good luck!

VA law gives them a lot of room. Subaru guys lose cases all the time with SPT exhaust (which are a dealer-installed part and probably quieter than whatever you have on the Z).

Your aftermarket exhaust DOES NOT qualify as OEM-type.

The "comparable to" line is a loophole for people that get a Midas exhaust or the like.

I have had to appear in court with a completely stock exhaust on my car, and it was still an uphill battle... :shakes head:

Yeap, the first thing the judge is going to ask the officer is if you were polite and cooperated with him...arguing with the cop (strike one). :shakes head: Never argue with a cop.

The arguments can be made at the court hearing in a polite manner, like quoting the VA regulatios for exhaust.

However, any non-OEM exhaust is deem ilegal in the Republic of VA. :shakes head:

GL in the court date!

A Contour ROAM or GoPro would have been helpful in this case. You're right though, he was confounded and used the exhaust as an excuse to still ticket you.

Sorry to leave that out, It was a state trooper stationed out of Culpeper co.

Dude, I laughed my azz off when you said he walked up to the front of your car looking for your plate, his jaw probably dropped in shock... it had to been hillarious, I woulda probably cracked up laughing at that point had I been in your situation.

My Thoughts
 

I have always wanted to try one of these cases. However, even if I charged almost nothing it would cost more to retain me than just pay the fine. The "or comparable to that designed for use on the particular vehicle as standard factory equipment” language should (in the real world) make these cases impossible for the prosecutor to prove.

The statute should require the prosecutor to bring in an expert witness. In this case, probably a Nissan technician to testify about the design and noise level of the factory exhaust. Then the technician would have to testify about the design and noise level of the factory exhaust. In my opinion, this would also require a decibel gauge.

Of course, the technician will have no expertise on the aftermarket exhaust. Therefore, the prosecutor would then need a separate expert witness for the aftermarket exhaust. That witness should be required to testify that the aftermarket exhaust is not “comparable to that designed for use” on a 370Z and that it is measurably louder.

Unfortunately, this is not what happens in the real world. The cop just uses your statement that it is an aftermarket exhaust and testifies that, in his opinion, it was louder.

If you want to fight this in court, you could try the following:

However, nothing in this post should be considered legal advice and you should always contact an experienced attorney regarding any legal matters. Also, never rely on legal advice taken from a forum post. Finally, nothing here should be taken as forming an attorney client relationship nor impose any obligation to any party.

First off, never admit to having an aftermarket exhaust. I don’t care if you have open tube headers sticking out of your hood. Even if the officer asks, you have a 5th amendment right against self incrimination.

This scenario assumes that you will not talk to the prosecutor or officer before your case is called. That may or may not be a good thing to do. But in this case, let’s just try and ambush them. Again, not always the best thing to do…

When your case is called wait for the officer to testify. After the officers testimony the judge will ask if you have any questions for the officer.

Keep in mind that you need to be disciplined and courteous to the judge and the officer. (Sorry Sndtgr08 I don’t think you could pull this off) Don’t go into a diatribe about your perceived injustice or your angst. Don’t give your side of the story. JUST ASK THE OFFICER STRAIGHT LEADING (YES OR NO ANSWERS) QUESTIONS. Assuming that all the officers answers are going to be no.

Can you describe the design of the exhaust system of a 2009 370Z?
Does the 370Z exhaust design utilize baffling? Chambering? Packed metal fibers? Resonators?
Can you describe the design of the exhaust system on my car?
Does the exhaust design on my car utilize baffling? Chambering? Packed metal fibers? Resonators?
How loud, in decibels, is a 370Z exhaust?
How loud, in decibels, is the exhaust on my car?
Does the police department have any device to gauge the decibels of sound or an exhaust? (this he may answer yes)
(if he answered yes) But in this case you chose not to utilize a decibel gauge?

Then you would tell the judge you have no further questions (I like to say “I’m done with this guy”). The Judge will then ask if you have anything to say (if he asks for a copy of your driving record from the cop you have already lost).

Your closing argument would be something like: Your honor, the Officer testified that he did not know the design of the 370Z exhaust or my exhaust. Also, he does not know the decibel level of a stock exhaust much less my exhaust. (now hand up a printed copy of the code section regarding exhausts). I don’t believe that the officer proved beyond a reasonable doubt that my exhaust was not of a comparable design or that it was louder than a stock exhaust.

@ ResIpsa

Exactly the strait info I was looking for. Thank you!:tup:



UPDATE!

No the officer did not atempt to take a reading and I would venture to say they do not own one. I have this shipping to me now Amazon.com: USB Handy Digital Sound Noise Level Meter Decibel Pressure Logger with Tripod Mounting: Everything Else

I plan on taking readings at the interestion of the court house at various time of the day on a weekend, video it and log my results to get an average of what "normal" is, close enough that any officer from the court can duplucate my results. I also plan on setting it in a friends crown vic in the spot the officer was sitting and drive back and forth 10 times, on video to show that he could not hear me. I have also started a petition that I plan on getting all my neighbors to sign saying they feel my exhaust is not "excessive or unusual"

Before work today I went to the court house to subpoena the tapes of the cruiser. Of course the clerk knows the officer who pulled me over. This Clerk of the Court told me she had no clue what I was talking about and said she did not know what form to give me. I found this to be a load of crap as lawers subpoena for records all of the time. I told her that I am just a citizen and as Clerk of the court its your job and duty to provide me with the documents I need! It took me 10 minutes and me taking down her name on a piece of paper and writing "will not provide proper form" before she gave me a "Subpoena Duces Tecum" but refused to tell me exactly what the form is for, so I have some digging to do to make sure its the right form. ResIpsa, Whats the correct form? As I am reading it on line, it works for medical records and such...its used in divorce...Can it work against the State Trooper to provide the tapes and records?


After work today I went to the Culpeper State Police HQ and asked to speak with a supervisor. I was directed to the Sargents office in the building next door. After they sat me in the lobby I see that the officer that pulled me over was there! What luck! I can hear him tell the sargent the story of him pulling me over for my "Exhaust" and totaly skip the crazy hi speed chase over my licenece plate. About 10 minutes later(The Sarge pulled my perfectly clean driving record at this time) I was told to go in. He starts in on "You have a clean driving record, you know the ticket carries no points" I say "I am not here to talk to you about my ticket. I am here to talk to you about how your officers conduct them selfs." I went on to tell him the parts the street cop left out and told him that I did not want to file an official complaint. I just dont want the officer to wreck into the next person he tries to pull over or scare them or there children. He tells me "I take all compaints Very seriously, and you can be asured the officer will be repremanded. Nobody in my district has free reign to drive recklessly and endanger others. I give my officers no slack and I can assure you he will be delt with. I understand the officer was in the wrong, but you have to understand we are only human and do make mistakes." There is more, but then he goes on to tell me I should bring my original recipt for the exhaust to court and any other documantation I can provide to prove it is an exhaust made for my car and not some modified strait pipe. I asked him if he would like to come out to my car and hear it run, or even take it for a spin as I have nothing to hide, but he said he could not as it may in someway be interfering in the case.

EDIT:
"You cannot subpoena police records unless the subpoena is part of the discovery phase in a current legal matter, which means there will have to be both an open court case involving you, and a reason for you to subpoena police records (for example, if a police officer is a party to the lawsuit in regards to an auto accident)."

"Draft a Subpoena Duces Tecum, which is a subpoena ordering the police department to testify about certain evidence, or provide evidence like police records, recordings, and other tangible evidence in lieu of testifying. Clearly state which records you are requesting, full names, case or matter numbers, any date(s), time(s), or place(s) applicable to the records, and any other information that will help the police department determine exactly what records you are requesting. Sign the bottom, and create a signature line for a court agent or judge to sign."

This is getting exciting:happydance: I'll Update again when I have the petition and the test results from the Decibel Pressure reader.

final edit 8:56

Most police cruisers do not carry audio/visual recording devices. I highly doubt that the Culpeper State Troopers have these.

And even if the Trooper had one, what is that going to prove? Forget the subpoena.

Also, that petition is complete heresay and inadmissable at trial.

You need to stay focused on what I posted earlier.

IMHO, I think you made things worse by going and complaining to the Sargeant. It doesnt help matters that the cop saw you there as well complaining about him. If this was a speeding ticket that was going to affect your insurance/driver's record, I could see why you would be concerned. You have no idea how many times I was pulled over (back when I was 19-20 years old) for not having a front license plate on my Civic, you just deal with it and pay the fine. It SUCKS that the cop gave you a ticket for an exhaust, and I know its BS. But I personally would just pay the ticket and be done with it. I would also just run your FLP so cops dont have another reason to stop you to begin with. Good luck with whatever you do though, and itd be great if you won this, but I feel you're fighting a losing battle.

then send resIpsa a bottle of wine for his support :)

^^ Yeah its cool having an attorney on the forums :)

Roger, skip the petition. Roger use vital info on your 1st post(thanks again)They do have video, it only started when he turned on his lights. It will show that the officer pulled me over for my licence plate, not my exhaust. An on failing to ticket me for that, took a shot in the dark with my exhaust. And it will have the sound of my exhaust from as I slowed and came to a stop and turned off my car, and pointed right at his cruiser, from 10 feet away, as I started up and pulled away (very carefully). It will also show the officers lie, in stating he heard me as I went past him. In court he may state that this is the only reason he pulled me over and say nothing of the true cause of my pull over. While on the video it will clearly show the officers mistake. You would still suggest no video?


Do you have any suggestions on conducting the tests with the Sound Meter? I figure to video the tests, as well as make a writen record of the results. But should I just conduct the the tests at random times in the center of town. How many should I do, 20, 50 100? How many would would be enough to have a fair sample of average? Also, after I have it all together, do I need to fill out any form to submit it for evidence? Or just bring it with my documentation? Or is that not admissible? How else am I to determine what is "normal" for culpeper, and not "excessive" or "Unusualy Loud". I already ordered the meter, and is the only true way I can think of to take a real mesure. A factual reading has to be better then an officers opinion. (Unless he hunts on the weekend with the Judges son, and I am screwed)




Buddy. I cannot let it go. If I just pay the fine, then I will be admitting guilt. This will open the door of every police in culpeper to pull me over for it, untill I get tired of paying the $100 fees and fines, and I have it removed. I have to nip this now. I like my exhaust. There is nothing wrong with it. It is not "Defective" or "Excessive". Its tasteful, and I dont want a different one. They should not be aloud to continue to harass me for it. I'm getting tired of all these vague, non specific laws they use in Va. You should hear the crap they make you do to get your civil rights back.

Updates? I live near warrenton, specifically in catlett. So your case has caught my interest.

Gl Drew

Yeay. The meter came today! Now to wipe the kids ipod and use it for video storage.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1991/dscn1750o.jpg
By sandtiger08 at 2012-04-20

That is very interesting... You' re thinking; I like that.

Have you done any readings of the decibel level of your aftermarket exhaust and a stock exhaust?

Unfortunately, our stock exhausts are so quiet anything would be louder. That tester could do more harm than good.

As I read the law, it does not specify that replacements have to have the same tone or db level. Only that they be comparable in function, and not excessively loud. I believe I meet these requirements under VA law. I hope to have the matter settled as simply put as your 1st post. But in reality, it make come down to "Guilty until proven innocent". I just got the car reinspected 2 days ago (2nd passed inspection with that exhaust), Have my original sales receipt for the exhaust(So I can prove that it is made as a replacement for my car and is not for off-road use), and I will have Real sound level mesurments, Vs police lies. Just in case.

Reject a null hypothesis....

4/22/2012 Ambient sound(high 40s) and My voice (65db). Then test with Motor warm. Idle @ about 700rpm 10' to the side(57db). 2' Directly in front of the pipe(67db)



Test at 10 feet, directly to one side of the muffler. I used max save setting to catch the peek level. I tested @ 3000 RPM. This is higher then needed to go 55mph in 4th gear.



Culpeper does not even have a sound ordinance. The last one proposed, over 2 years ago, stated that sound levels had to be above 80 db for over 15 minutes before one was in violation.

Edit: the rain will not let up now. Will test more when I get the chance.

Excellent research on your part! :tup:

When is you court date.

Drew

Court date is the 29th of may.

I took about 20 videos today. I had the camera and meter at the spot where the cop was parked, but the tests were not done inside of a vehicle. The videos range from 15 seconds to 1:15 of dozens on cars and trucks. and about 8 vids of me driving back and forth.

The road noise is mosty what you hear and is picked up. Just the sound of a car going by, the tires and air displacement along with motor noise, even on the quiet cars was low to mid 70s.

Older cars, louder cars and quieter trucks were hi 70's low 80's.

Louder trucks and a few of the louder cars(not modded) were in the mid 80s.

Pass after pass I was in the mid to high 70's


"An exhaust system shall not be deemed to prevent excessive or unusual noise if it permits the escape of noise in excess of that permitted by the standard factory equipment exhaust system of private passenger motor vehicles or trucks of standard make."

I am well with in the sound limits of "standard make trucks and private passenger motor vehicles with standard factory equipment". There are many stardard make vehicles that are louder then me. I have proof.

If that's true then you now also have the supervisor admitting that his officer was wrong for writing the ticket. Just something to tack on at the end of your closing argument.

UPDATE!

I went to court today. The state trooper gave his edited report. I questioned the officer. He admited to knowing nothing about exhaust systems. He admited to knowing nothing about decibels. He admited to not having a decibel meter. I brought video proof that my car is no louder then then most other cars and quieter then many.

The only "evidence" brought against me was the trooper stating that he thought it "sounded loud".

The judge said he finds me guilty.

I ask him how can I be found guilty, by only the unprofessional opinion of one person? With no evidence against me, and me being with in the law, and standing there with proof of it?

He told me that it would be bad to get charged with contempt of court, for only a defective equipment charge.

I tell you all right now I have nothing but contempt for the court and the whole justice system. I went strait to the clercks window and filed an appeal. While doing that the next 2 sets of people who came out stopped and told me "Way to go" and "Good job" and could not believe what they just saw. I still cant believe it, how on Earth is that legal? We no longer need proof to convict someone of a crime. You just need someone to think you broke the law and BAM guilty.

Virginia traffic enforcement sucks big ones.

No disrespect to the officers. I'm talking about the legislation as written and the policies of enforcement.

welcome to virginia.

I lost a court battle for a ticket...3 mph over in 60, on a motorcycle, with an uncalibrated radar gun that wasn't even rated for MC use anyways. VA courts are ridiculous.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. Court system here is so f*cked up it's not even funny. Your case is a prime example of how jacked up the justice system is.

That sucks dude,

If you got firm with the cop/judge in the courtroom, that never ends well. Thats just how the system is. Filing an appeal probably wont net you much, especially if you got belligerent in the court room by saying how the officer was "unprofessional".

Ive gotten pulled over in the past before for all sorts of BS, some people get away with it and some dont. Id just move on and not fret about it, its not like it was a moving violation for going 2mph over the speed limit (like what happened to me back in december).

But good luck with whatever you do!

Sucks big time.

The Republic of Virginia SUCKS, plain and simple! :shakes head:

Can't wait to get the hell out this state! :mad:

I think that you might need a lawyer for your appeal court date and let him present the evidence. I know that is going to cost you money.

One of the question to ask to cop was or is if he had any Industrial Hygienist Training or degree. What makes him a Subject Matter of Expert on noise pollution.

prime example of guilty until proven innocent. Just remember state judges are elected officials, if you're truly pissed off at this person take matters into your own hands. Run a campaign of "truth" against this person when they're up for re-election. Probably not a great idea but you can always remind them that they're job depends on the people and pissing the people off is not a good way to keep your job.

Judges will always stick up for cops in traffic courts, I've been through that too.....in fact, Judges are even MORE asshats than cops.....sitting in their silly black robe, being all soooooo above a regular person. They are two nuts in a ball sack, since when they get pulled for speeding or DWI or other traffic issues the cop will NOT write them up too.....Its pathetic....the judge knew you were right, but he wanted to be a **** to show HE had the power...not you. File a complaint against him.

Hmmmm how does one go about doing that?

I have never seen a Judge so completly not want to see any evidence or even look at the actual words of the law in my life.

It was like the cop said "I think he killed him" and the judge says "GUILTY!" I was looking around because I thought it was a joke.

I was convicted on one persons opinion and nothing else, then told to stop talking and leave or be found in contempt of court.

EDIT: One of the loacal lawers just called me back. He told me that the judge for traffic court is a retired judge subbing for the normal one. He was not surprised at all, and told me that the judge does what he wants and does not care cuz he is retired. He told me that I will have better luck at the appeal with the other normal judge who should actualy do his job.

I still find this to be BS! How can they let a judge be up there who does not care about the law and could give a shyt about who he pisses off as long as he gets a laugh with his golf buddys? Is the court system just a joke even to the people who work there? OMGWTFail

Yep. Va law, I think, still says anything NOT Factory. I use to get this with my Pontiac from time to time and would ask the officer why he didn't stop me on my way home yesterday on my Motorcycle when I passed him. The 4" pipes on that are way louder than my car. Besides, what if I bought the car this way?

Cop was being a ****. Having been a Prior Norfolk Officer myself, I'd say he was being a ****; yep. VA troopers are generally this way. I had one pass me on the shoulder so fast that all the debri shattered my windshield that flew up. I chased him into the Rest Zone and called him out on it. Would have killed someone on a motorcycle....Mostly rookies looking for a fight. VA is a common wealth, so it's full of Good-ol' boys and some of the dumbest Officers I've ever encountered. Should say something having been one myself.

Northern VA is really bad about this kind of stuff. I'd recommend getting pre-paid legal and just waste the officers and the courts time. Get the ticket, call prepaid, paid the minimal fine. Go have fun. They are just trying to generate $. They say BS, but they got caught lying about it 3 years ago when they tried to enstate the law that if you're ticket for 20 over, you have to pay that fine for 3 years straight...They denied it over and over and over, until the dumbasses finally had to admit that it's convicting of the same crime more than once. Then they had to repeal the law and pay everyone back that had been doing it. Their reason, 'to build revenue". So I say play the game too. I waste more $ in the few hours in the court room to addres a stupid muffler issue, cause it must be evil, and life threatening, and harming people than the **** tard officer makes all week. So, Piss away his time and keep him from doing anything real with his job....This is why I left the PD; full of some of the dumbest, Jack-moles. Badge envy is the issue.... :nutswinger:

Then again, keep in mind these are Troopers we are talking about, not your local PD. And not every Officer is a total Douche bag.:shakes head: