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Josh
And I thank you. It's a clean sheet of paper comming into this and if it works......it works! As they say in the car business, "I ain't married to any of them" and if your intake/exhaust can work to optimise a setup.....hey, great. It's just in the literally years and years, and car after car of doing this, typically the bark is worse than the bite when it comes to aftermarket claims. Learned through the school of hard knocks to be skeptical until proven different. Wish that wasn't true, believe me. Thanks foe the heads up on the tuning software. Cobb evidently is located close to me and I may drop by for a chat but you're the second person to recommend them. Man.......I just love this stuff, sure puts a grin on my face. Quote:
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I've dealt with Stillen products before during my decade long love affair with DSMs. They produce good quality products and are sincere about their efforts.
Josh, the best way to overcome the skeptics is to be as thorough in what you post when you guys get your dyno time (obviously you know this). I'd hate to have to wait for more results after your product goes on sale AND someone buys AND they get to a dyno. Here's what I think would satisfy the community: Not all of us are like Denny, looking for a single high point to justify our purchases. Those of us looking for maximum area under the curve want a better ability to evaluate your product. So, for the rest of us, a full dyno pull readout, from 0-redline would be fantastic. This will help those that are looking for the kinds of results I am to really assess your intake and whether it meets our specific needs. Being a long tube style, I expect that the ability of the tubes to breathe at higher rpms may cost a little down low whereas a shorter, ram style intake may sacrifice high rpm gains for more area under the curve elsewhere. I think the A/F is key as well. Therefore, I would greatly apprecieate the A/F readings for all pulls. Thanks. I'm looking forward to the results. |
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I'll be paying attention to this thread :tup: I almost bought the JWT pop charger Intake this weekend, but they are only claiming a 6-10hp gain,
which sounds about right for an intake. Interested to see what Stillen can do with their intake. I've go the Nismo exhaust installed and will be looking to do an intake and some HFC's next. :tup: |
If you read Lingenfilters book, he emphases maximizing horsepower within the intended rpm range in which the car will be utilized. That said, have a spreadsheet that I plug the dyno numbers into that replicates a quarter mile run. I get both average hp within each gear and an average hp over what the entire quarter mile run would be.
Then shame on me.....back it up at the track typically looking at the mph vs time taking in consideration the weather conditions. Don't have a true weather station, but sure do look at the barometric pressure, humidity, temp and 60' time for track prep. Peak hp or peak gains are nice, but it's the average hp gain that wins races. Again, new to this list, not new to doing mods. In 100% agreement about preproduction dyno numbers vs real word user numbers. Was the first person to purchase and paid $2k for a set of stepped headers with merge pipe that were hyped to produce a 25 hp gain over my Hookers. Would have been happy with a 5-8 hp gain. They didn't fit, leaked, rusted and after a year and dozens of dyno runs to make then work, I sent them back. The gains were ZERO on the dyno vs a set of conventional headers. I then called Larry Meaux who writes racing software and whose cars have over 40 NHRA records. Larry said in his experience, this particular type of header at best would produce a 1% gain. Sometimes none. My experience was none. So much with premarket hype......this is where any BS ends. Quote:
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The SAE text books tell you 12.7 for max power. In my experience this is not correct and depends upon the particular type of car and even will vary slightly among individual cars. Most tuners today tune for around 13.0 to 1. Pro Stock cars run optimally in the mid 14 to 1 range. Dynos don't lie and neither do wideband 02 sensors if functioning correctly. We'll see later what these cars like as again.......it's a clean sheet of paper. Will post later today what a 100% stock 370Z makes with 150 miles on it along with stock Air/Fuel ratio's. |
Fresh from dyno.
Three baseline runs were done to find the sweat spot for testing temp and a 4th run done removing the air filters to see the effects. All runs are SAE corrected utilizing a dynojet dyno. The first run was with an oil temp of 180 (usually do water temp, but being none are available) which yielded 277/231 torque. After five minutes a second pull was done with an oil temp just under 200 degrees which yielded the best run of the three of 275/240. (fyi 282/246 std) Even though peak is slightly less, the overall power was significantly more. A third run was done with an oil temp of 220 with power going down to 273/236 indicating the car likes oil temps just under 200 degrees. Really wish I could do better water temp readings as this is usually what I go by in establishing a baseline for consistency. The car was allowed to cool down to 195 oil temps (best run temp), the air filters removed and redynoed. The results were 274/239 which tells me I may have pissed away 90 bucks buying the Corsworth high flow filters making me even more skeptical of an 18 hp gain in just intake. Air/fuel ratio are pretty rich for a N/A setup mostly in the mid to high 11 to 1 range which tells me one of two things: These care either like it rich, or the factory is sandbagging. Tuning software should answer that question. Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket Also for poops n grins we pulled dyno sheet up of a 350Z. No offense to the 350 people, woe....glad I bought a 370. Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket If anyone is slicker (probably a ton) than me at embedding images into posts...I send the scanned file and you can add. |
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This does lend itself to the theory that the gains from the aftermarket intakes may be solely due to the change in tune. If that's the case, as simple 93 specific reflash may be all we need on the intake side (for those of us fortunate enough to live in a 93 octane state). |
Sorry guy, all I have is the scanned dyno sheets and putting them in photobucket. Can send the scanned files.
The only weak link is the gas is from the dealership original new car fill and I have no clue as to the octane. Thought about that on the way into the dyno maybe at least putting some 93 in the tank but not sure how the computer recognizes or would even recognize?? Got a lot to learn on how to tweak these cars. That's OK......... I'll learn. Josh....... I'll do for you what I've have done for other aftermarket vendors on numerous occasions. Send me an intake, I'll follow your dyno directions to the T with witnesses, and if it does what you say....... The check/credit card is in the mail. However, if it doesn't......the intake is in the mail. Up for a challenge?? Welcome to the "pucker zone." Amazing how many decline....wonder why? Quote:
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I agree, I need more proof too, and to the guy who said air/fuels will remain the same. Take a look at the dyno's done so far of exhaust components. The air/fuels did not remain the same, and coming from a tuning background in Ford's myself, that is what I would have expected. |
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http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...DSC00073-1.jpg |
I like the challenge, I'm definitely watching this thread now. Things just got interesting...
If it equals the claimed power gains I'll buy one immediately. |
If it comes within 20% of its claims I am in
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did a child draw that? its cute.
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Instead of digging the Breathless out of the trash; examined the stock setup very close, it appeared there was no room directly underneath the K&N filter. I took a stock filter, cut the guts out and used as a spacer. The car dynoed in the 470's again. Removed it completely and the car dynoed the same w/ w/o, so the intake is not an issue if additional space is provided under the filter. Proof is in the pudding, dyno sheet also on that website...........highest N/A street driven LTx C4 on the Corvette Forums. Just a matter of figuring out how to make things work and the smooth billows are not necessary. Speaking of......... "How to make things work". The general conscience at the dyno shop yesterday is to do twin turbos. I agree, but I'm going to play a bit more tweaking a N/A setup as my observation and conjecture is there is power to be had in a tune and exhaust. The exhaust systems looks weak and that will be my next project but already having second thoughts about buying a Y pipe. Like the true dual notion better but I've been wrong before. We'll see what the dyno says. |
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Im just giving you crap :) keeping the thread going until Josh answers..
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The honest to god truth is I hope the intake is everything they say and more. Certainly in my best interest. But man, that's a ton to gain on a small motor whose intake doesn't look all that bad to begin with. Hope I'm proven wrong. Problem I've ran into virtually my entire hotrodding career is rarely does something produce what it's hyped to be and in many cases needs modification to just fit or work. The term is: "racers net" Which means if you want it to work, you got to make it work. Unfortunately not necessarily entirely completely in the hands of the people making and promoting the products. First, if someone is honest and they say it only makes 10hp extra........ no one buys it. They buy it from the guy who says theirs makes 25hp. Rarely also are items dyno certified for gains. They brag and talk a bunch of smack to their buds about how much power their car makes w/o even knowing what it really makes. How urban legends start and shaky companies stay in business. Same for the big name shops who provide dyno sheets for their big buck buildups. Who really bothers to have another shop dyno the car for verification?? Hell, ya got a dyno sheet with it didn't ya? Could not even begin to tell you the times I've seen cars with dyno sheets fall way short of what they thought they paid for when put on an independent dyno. JC Whitney marketing at it best. |
Interesting... Nice looking engine bay. Clean. Mine was dirty as hell. (Always working on it, never tidying up. LOL)
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Hey I'm sorry guys.. things have been busy and I've been relying on my email notification for this thread, which apparently I read in my email box without clicking back to the site to get more updates.. and hadn't seen these from the last couple of days..
Denny, I can't see the dyno sheets you've posted, both links head straight to photobucket, can you send those to me or repost the links? I don't think it's something on my end... but you never know. |
Hey Guys,
Josh just told me about the offer Denny has made and we're in. In the past we have always been ready to stand behind our products and put them to the test. We just ask that you follow a few simple guidelines to ensure a fair and equal testing environment. 1) You perform a minimum of 7 runs. We have found that these engines will learn the new parts and we have literally watched the cars gain more and more power on each pull up to about the 9th run. They don't typically climb any higher after the 9th run. 2) You do not remove the car or adjust the tie downs in between dyno pulls. By loosening or over-tightening the straps you can either gain or lose horsepower. The intake must be installed on the dyno with the straps not being touched at all. 3) You document the installation completely with pictures and feedback. Also, tell us what you think of the intake, construction, materials, out of box experiences. 4) This must be tested on a bone-stock car. No other modifications can be on the car for either the baseline or the STILLEN Gen. 3 testing. If we can agree to these terms then we have a deal. We did the exact same thing for the G37 guys when they tested the intake and it proved to gain the power that we claimed. These intakes are still in production so it'll be a couple of weeks before we can send them out but we will at least be able to get this ball rolling in the meantime. Thanks! Kyle Millen |
Score. Subscribed.
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I like this thread!
Subscription #2
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#3 eagerly awaiting the results
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Great numbers!!!!
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Deal!
Ordered new cats and Y-pipe that should be in tomorrow but I'll hold off on putting them on the car. Is there a certain engine temp you like to see the runs performed at?? The car did lose a tiny bit of hp with the oil temp @220 vs just below 200 or was that an abnormality due to only 150 miles on the car? Some cars loose quite a bit with heat soak (like my Ltx Vette) and some like the LS1 make more power typically around the third run so let me know. My personal e-mail address is: d48mclain@tx.rr.com - phone 817-430-1324 Absolutely love to see vendors belly up at the bar like real men for a change. As mentioned, it's in everyone's best interest to sort out the posers from the players. You'd really be surprised at what dyno tricks some of the big name local tuners play. Man.......I just love this stuff. Quote:
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e-mail me at the e-mail address in the above and I send you the scaned jpeg sheets. Pretty good with cars.....missed a few geek classes on posting picturers though. What can I say?? |
You bring up a good point about engine temps...I totally forgot that. We will have a set engine temp range that the tests will need to be performed in. We are more concerned with the coolant temp than the oil temp. I will check with my engineers tomorrow morning.
With that being said, you are not wrong about the oil temp rising in these cars and we are working on a solution to this. We work very closely with the Nissan engineer's and they told us a few little secrets about some of results from their testing. We are nearly finished with an oil cooler using a very high quality Setrab cooler. It should be ready in the next month or so. |
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Did that guy really just rate an intake install a 9/10? 9/10 should be like a motorswap...
Took 4 guys, 2 hours. Dear lord. Anyway, 15hp gains...pretty absurd. If it makes 15hp gains for Denny, I will buy with my eyes closed. Sorry to ask this, but do you have any mounted pics on the 370z? I, along with some others, are curious as to where it sits... Also, Setrab kit, count me in. |
Engine temp sweet spots are pretty much the norm for almost any car and the traditional way people massage the gain numbers. My problem is no way to monitor the water temp which I also consider is the critical parameter vs oil temp. If ya got something, throw it in the box and I'll nuke it right back.
David Vissard (sp? think I have his last name at least close) believes around 170 degrees to be optimal for making power in a traditional small block Chevy. Bob Norwood on the other hand is an old friend and used to preach to me "heat is horsepower." Bob is a god among the Ferrari crowd ,so tell me what these cars like. Quote:
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Quick point I've been thinking about and probably a good time to mention it.
Thermostats? Usually the factory installs these for engine longevity and emissions. Are other ones available where the engine is in the range it likes for more power? The first thing most Corvette guys do is cold air intake, headers, exhaust, and lower temp thermostat. |
^That's a very good point. If the Z is making the most power on the 7th-9th run it certainly likes it a little warmer. However, if we are already having heat issues on the track, won't this only exacerbate them? Or, with an oil cooler, could we keep the motor right in the sweet spot? Does this deserve it's own thread?
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In regards to a thermostat. You bring up a good point and one that is usually addressed by Nismo directly. Your local dealership should be able to help you with that. |
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1) Perform your first pull 2) Allow sufficient time to let car return to optimal engine temp ranges. 3) Perform next pull |
Sometimes shops who do group dyno sessions will make three quick passes to get off the car as quickly as possible so the next person can get on. Or for an individual who wants a trophy dyno run for their records just to say they have a dyno run. That's OK in that case, however for serious tuning or performance verification, you always a maintain a constant run temperature with proper allotted cool down for consistency.
Each run has to be the same regardless and if your tuning........only change one parameter at a time unless your adding a known tune. Easiest way in the world to get lost is changing too many things at the same time or be sloppy with engine temps. Not sure about the Nissan timing maps, but some factory ECU software will alter the timing according to water temp. The objective is to eliminate as many extraneous variables as possible or you're wasting time and money. There is a lot of science and study methodology that is used if you're going to do it right. Some of them good-ol-boy NASCAR mechanics ain't so dumb after all. Quote:
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