Most hp on return less system
 

Being that my goal is 600rwhp
And the fact I am tring to not get parts I may not need

How much hp can be had on the returnless style system

My setup
340lph fp and 750 cc injector
Snow performance water - meth system
6266 single turbo

Water meth will be install in next 3 weeks
and I have a set of 900 cc injectors not installed yet

Was going to do return style but I wont do it if I can reach my goal without it

Paging Phunk...Phunk, please come to 'Most hp on return less system' thread and drop your expertise on the OP.

Talk to the guys at Boosted Performance. Their single turbo is 600hp I think and they don't need a meth system to get there. You can also get there without meth on a twin turbo build as well. I also question the need for 900cc injectors.

Good luck.

Just say no to meth, go E85, safer and easier to deal with. If you do go meth be sure to use braided lines. The AEM and most others lines will fail at the connections and set your engine bay on fire. I speak from experience. 600rwhp on a stock block? May the force be with you!

That's why I always ran 50/50 meth and water when I ran it on a previous car.

regardless, use braided lines!

Yeah, I didn't have the car long enough after the install to worry about it. If I ever ran it again I'd use braided lines over the push lock ones. I had a coolingmist setup and the lines were pretty cheap looking. I'm over meth as a power adder. The idea of a meth system failure at high boost gives me the willies.

He's built block, can't wait to see the high boost numbers!

lots of motors failing around these parts cuz kids can't keep track of their meth levels in the tank..... I guess thats hard to do :icon14:

:facepalm:

If you never let it get low that can never happen. I was more worried about the controller crapping out and the "failsafe" didn't give me a whole lot of confidence that the motor would be ok if flow cut out.

Boom, push that sh*t then!

It's the idiots with too much money that keep the doors open...:rofl2:

I think you need to up your goal. The guys with the Fast Intentions kits are running 600whp+ on stock blocks. You've got the motor to shoot for higher.

Not to mention 600 on the stock block just screams "borrowed time" to me.

It might be possible to hit 600whp with what you have but you can also run into fuel pressure dropping off pushing the stock return less system that hard. I wouldn't do it you I know on my car i ran into this issue . I ended up with Phunk twin pumps and return system fuel feed lines. With your car the just adding the return system should be enough for your goal.

That set-up (fuel and turbo) is good for 600whp on pump gas....all day long. I would not complicate things with water/meth.

This is a BP customer with a 6266 T4 .81 a/r tangential (non twin scroll) turbo on a VQ35DE engine. This was a simple 9.8:1 CR short block build. Nothing else was done to the engine...just the short block build. Stock cams, stock intake...not even a plenum spacer:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps22e4c200.png

Vince said that the tune was conservative.

With the VQ37VHR, you can expect even better numbers due to the increased efficiency of the twin scroll. 650whp on a DJ should not be an issue with the Stage I (6266) version of this kit, and 93 pump gas..... provided that the fuel support is there (pump/injectors/supply to fuel rails).

I have one customer that made almost 700whp (DJ) with a twin scroll 6766 T4 1.32 a/r turbo kit on a VQ35DE, also pump gas and a short block build. (sorry don't have the dyno for that).

Nice numbers



Are you talking about Binder's car from my 350 forum ?

Thank you...these billet T4 frame turbos are a great match to the VQ engines.


No, binder made 651whp but his twin disc clutch went down the hill after that....just couldn't hold the power. The 651whp was at about 6,000rpm...so he still had a lot more left in there if it wasn't for the clutch slipping.

Found the graph of Binders car, and his twin disc clutch letting go. This is also the older 6765 turbo, the 6766's are a nice improvement in every aspect:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...clutchslip.jpg

Don is the one that made almost (if not exactly) 700whp on a DJ. This was on a dyno shoot-out event...hence no graph.

The FI kit running 600hp was on e85 or 100 octane I think. Pump gas 600hp stock block? If so that's great.

They were on E85, but at a certain point cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure.

That dyno chart is aweomse. Looks like a kid trying to learn cursive

That is awesome. "Well there's your problem!"

I got 611rwhp on my returnless system, but that was on Q16 race gas.

Yeah, that is what a slipping clutch curve will look like. There is a point where it just can't hold any more...That can be looked at as a very good thing though.

You can absolutely make 600whp with the stock fuel system on a stock engine by upgrading just pump and injectors. But there are some caveats.

I would recommend a fuel pressure gauge and of course an A/F gauge, preferably one for each bank.

At this type of flow, you are asking a lot of your fuel system configuration. When you run your fuel system to its maximum potential, all the little differences begin to matter.

With this type of fuel flowing through the stock plumbing, you are going to see pressure drop just before the rails. Unfortunately there is no where to tap a fuel pressure gauge into the rails themselves, because that would show the real situation.

But anyway, when you are pushing your fuel system to the max... what that max power actually is depends on many more variables than just "what injectors" and "what pump". This is why you want to have at least the A/F data so you can know when you are pushing your luck.

Keep in mind that with the 11:1 compression ratio of the stock engine, one degree of ignition timing can make 15-20+ HP difference. This means that if the car is tuned aggressively, it stands to make a lot more power out of the same fuel system as a car that is tuned conservative. If you tune the car super conservative, you are going to start seeing your pressure drop earlier in the HP. Once pressure drop starts, you are going to run out of fuel very quickly.

Also, if you run your car in the pressure drop zone, you can expect your tune to require changes quite often. Because when you tuned your car around a specific fuel pressure curve, and then the weather outside changes that fuel pressure curve, that can have big effects on your A/F.

But ya... it can definitely be done. But you might find that you dont make it that far. It just sorta depends on tons of things.

Ok so what I'm hearing is I may be good for high 500
With my current fuel setup
But for 600+ go return
E85 is just to far from me to be reasonable
And I think I can manage the water meth levels
and have them tune the car without going nuts on the timing

So returnless..340lph and 750 cc should be ok

If nothing else that water meth is used for a bit more safety
I don't drive my car like a mad man but I am all for reliability

You will want to tune the car pretty aggressively. The factory fuel system regulates pressure at the tank before all pressure drops. So as your system flow goes up in the high power, the restrictive plumbing will start to generate pressure drop. So your boost is going up, and your rail pressure is dropping. You stand to loose a ton of fuel pressure differential. So the lower you keep the boost, and the more efficiently you burn the fuel, the more you are going to make out of the fuel system. People have run out of fuel as early as midlow 500s on this car... if its going to take you a lot of boost to make the power, or you arent going to tune it aggressively.. that scenario is where I would say you wont make it to 600 on a stock fuel system.

Ya your 750cc is no good for E85 anyway.

You can probably make it to high 500s. Hard for me to say for sure. You are already at 10 psi just to hit 525 according to your sig... so thats either a little turbo or conservative tuning. If its going to take much more boost, you might not make it. (keep in mind that boost in the manifold is fighting the fuel pressure in the rail)

52psi is about stock fuel pressure.

You have an effective 42psi at 10 pounds of boost. however your rail pressure is probably already starting to fall a little. say you max out the fuel system and pressure falls to 45 in the rails, and youre at 15 psi in the manifold, thats only 30psi of effective fuel pressure you have... and that isnt going to cut it.

Some of these questions are hard for me to answer being that I sell fuel systems upgrades. If I tell someone they need something to hit 600hp, and then someone does it on a stock system... I look like im just trying to push my goods.

But the facts are that there are many variables and the same fuel system can honestly be 100+ HP difference depending on a lot of things. So there is no real answer as to what is needed to a certain HP level.

MOST people want a lot of headroom in their system so they dont have to keep an eye on things as much... like a bone stock cars fuel system. They dont run them anywhere near the max, and thats not a coincidence.

But there are also the guys who want to squeeze the most out of what they do have, and telling them to spend a dollar more than needed is a crime.

So the best I can say is that the stock fuel system with pump and injectors can certainly hit 600whp, but only you and the tuner in the room when you do it has the information to determine how safe and dependable the setup is on that car.

Bottom line here is, do not run any component to the max/at the very limit....no matter what it is. If you wan't to run the OEM fuel system at the "edge", it may work, but it is not a good idea.

The 350z cars/dynos I mentioned all have fuel return systems. Not something you want to try and save money on.

One question I often ask customers when we speak on the phone is how much their tuning and dyno use costs them.

It can make a difference in what I recommend. Lets look at my car as an example... tuning is free, and dyno time is almost free... I give the guy I sold my dyno to $100 and use the thing as long as I want. he doesnt even ask for the money, its more like a tip.

So for me to come back and do it again later is no big deal.

Then, there are guys who have to schedule their tuning 4 weeks in advance and it costs them $800 by the time its done. In that situation, its really not cool to run out of fuel early and have to go back.

So it can depend... for a guy who tunes his car himself on the street and only uses the dyno for final high power tuning and to see what it makes... those guys I often recommend them to just TRY it out and see how it goes, upgrade if needed.. no harm done.

It's official, you suck. :rofl2:

Got it thxs for the education man.
so an example would be:
Aggressive tune with race gas = less boost but more power
Vs conservative tune 93 gas=more boost to make same power

I guess I would just be better off just getting a good 93 tune
And see if I can squeeze the 600 mark out on water - meth for the track

As I am now having bad wheel hop problems and need to divert my money away from the motor and to suspensions work

If it makes you feel any better, between buying and selling the dyno, I probably lost around $20,000.... if you divide that out between how many times I have used it on my personal cars... its probably about $4000 each use :)

But how many customer cars did you charge to tune? And I'd assume you got to write off the purchase of the dyno and depreciate it down. And, that one last little thing- you had your own dyno. :rofl2:

Trust me... that dyno was the dumbest thing I ever purchased! Then again, if I got it for the price that the guy I sold it to did, I would buy it again in a heartbeat.

Its sort of like an AMG or M car... if you arent a millionaire, youre unwise to purchase new instead of 1-2 years old.

Phunk,

If the CJM fuel starvation kit you sell is installed does that rectify the OP's issue? Just wondering if your kit would be considered an acceptable upgrade for a future FI installation and have the benifit of solving the starvation problem while still in NA form.

Not sure about the highest #s but I made 576whp @10PSI on 100 octane. 340lph fuel pump, 650cc injectors.

My car is the 632hp@13psi Fast Intentions e85 car(one of them). Of course when going e85 at those numbers, fuel system is everything, bar none.

Return style at 600hp on gasoline is more of a safety net than a necessity. Just remember, no matter what type of fuel you run, the more power, the more fuel. The more fuel you flow, the greater the chance any variable can cause damage.

Think of it this way. A speed bump at 25mph is tolerable, now at 75mph...you are eating ****. The more fuel you flow, the more impact a pressure drop can have on your system(and things like fuel starvation).

If anything, I would run something as simple as a CJM stage 0, which is easy to put in and gives you that extra layer of security. I have the full CJM system overhaul.....zero problems, I can DD my car(have done so in traffic/45mile commute) with absolutely no mileage or drivability issues.

If you go meth, I've been really happy with this tank I got. Definitely recommend as it's large enough that I don't have to refill it often. It's only been filled twice since I got it installed, partly because the weather was cold enough to permit not using meth.

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/z...psc023c7bd.jpg
http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps558144c2.jpg
http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps523d00d3.jpg

Sounds good guys thxs for the input.i will be ordering the
Cjm stage 0. (ORDERED) :)

Is that mounted in your trunk fire hawk