Nissan 370Z Forum
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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Forced Induction (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/)
-   -   GTM issues (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/61065-gtm-issues.html)

Mr.Squeeze 09-26-2012 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris (Post 1933701)
no sh*t! Just buy a freaking GTR and be done with it!!


I think what drives this cost up a lot is the labor building thes VQ's are very expensive. I have a built motor with a TT kit and I am not even close to that but I saved a lot of money in other area's.

blackonorange 09-26-2012 04:10 PM
They built his engine to?

marrim 09-26-2012 04:59 PM
What's the sales tax on 30 grand? :stirthepot:

And do fries come with that?

Flyboy 09-26-2012 05:02 PM
This is just sad.

It seems to happen often that Someone comes on here and Complains about GTM...

GTM, I have wanted a Kit from you guys, but the record isn't looking good.

I wanted to order one about a year ago, when The post came out about the guy that bought a BRAND NEW kit and got a USED kit..

That stopped me back then.

atx370z 09-26-2012 05:33 PM
When **** like this happens, it makes baby Jesus cry.

I am sympathetic to both sides of the transaction as from what I can tell seems like nothing short of a HUUUGE lack of communication from both parties and not necessarily anyone being a pain in the *** or trying to rip someone off....

When in doubt, take it to Judge Judy. :D

Nissan370 09-26-2012 05:40 PM
did i miss something
did gtm have a twin supercharger kit laying around in april lol

this was a r&d build right ,man if you guys can pull r&d work out you azz in a month your good ;)

Notsud 13 09-26-2012 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissan370 (Post 1933886)
did i miss something
did gtm have a twin supercharger kit laying around in april lol

this was a r&d build right ,man if you guys can pull r&d work out you azz in a month your good ;)
i've done it five times. now where are my high fives?

1st 09-26-2012 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackonorange (Post 1932568)
Jesus Christ, 30 grand
Ya! All say. What are you trying to prove with all that power?

m3chhawk 09-26-2012 06:16 PM
I'd like to see this $30k invoice that was supposed to be attached....

Rusty 09-26-2012 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3chhawk (Post 1933938)
I'd like to see this $30k invoice that was supposed to be attached....
You're late to the show son. It was posted at one time. It was either here or over on the G37 forum. ;)

show2nite 09-26-2012 07:26 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 1933946)
You're late to the show son. It was posted at one time. It was either here or over on the G37 forum. ;)
Here is the 30K invoice:

Cmike2780 09-26-2012 07:26 PM
Wowzers. Sharing a bad experience is one thing...trying to destroy a company's reputation is not cool. As with anything involving large sums of money, there should have been a detailed contract written, signed & notarized by both parties involved. It would have shown all preliminary cost estimate for parts, installation and time frame.

GTM would not be liable for time lost with the car for the simple fact that the OP knowingly went into this project with a lot of uncertainties pertaining to a yet unreleased product. Simply put, the OP left his car with GTM voluntarily. Unless GTM sent something in writing that says the car MUST be at thier shop by a certain date, the OP isn't entitled a dime for not having the car for so many months.

Sucks to hear about projects collapsing like this, but its never just one side's fault.

There's three sides to every story...

marrim 09-26-2012 07:49 PM
So 1 thing I want to point out is 30 grand was not for the dual supercharger. There are many many other things being done to this car. Suspention, Exhaust, Port Injection, Body Wrap, Gauges. There us over 14 grand in other crap. I think OP bit off more than he could chew.

And to think that all labor was going to be free is insane.

Red__Zed 09-26-2012 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmike2780 (Post 1934031)
Wowzers. Sharing a bad experience is one thing...trying to destroy a company's reputation is not cool. As with anything involving large sums of money, there should have been a detailed contract written, signed & notarized by both parties involved. It would have shown all preliminary cost estimate for parts, installation and time frame.
if you ask for things like that in the automotive aftermarket, no vendor will ever do business with you.

Cmike2780 09-26-2012 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1934058)
if you ask for things like that in the automotive aftermarket, no vendor will ever do business with you.
It's pretty simple then, isn't it? There's a certain amount of risk involved and you have very few legal actions available should something go wrong. Contracts are required when someone has work done at the dealership. It protects both parties in case the unexpected happens. I guess my point is that at the end of the day, you chose to have the work done. If a vendor can't sign something with the basic expectations from both sides, I wouldn't want to do business with them.

SAM@GTM 09-26-2012 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spawn350 (Post 1932389)
Sam,

I am not going to go on and on for pages with you. I do apologize for getting the date of receipt wrong for my car, and should have checked. You are correct that the car was delivered in early April and not early March. I also went back and forth on what kit I wanted BEFORE I shipped my car to you. You contacted me in the beginning of April to ask me what my "wish list" for the car was and didn't contact me again until the end of May when you sent me a $30,000 invoice (attached). However, please explain these questions:

1. Why would I send you a car in April to sit there before you even sent me an invoice for labor or the additional cost of the kit (that you didn't disclose till May 23rd) ? The answer is: I was led to believe that the installation was free and the car was being worked on and the kit was ready by the time the car was there.

2. Why did you tell me the car would be done on June 7th (see attached PDF)? This is in line with you telling me the car would be done at the end of April when it was first shipped out.

3. If you are in the right, why did you refund $5,000 to me? Surely you could have found another person willing to jump on this.

4. In what state is it legal to waive sales tax? Can you show proof that you paid sales tax on this order?

5. Why would I have wanted a twin supercharger if other options provided more power for less cost and risk?

6. If you didn't express cash-flow issues why did you ask me if you could process my initial refund of $5000 several days in the future of the agreement for refund that we made?

7. Why am I at the mercy of your uninstall to get a refund now? You have the car and the parts correct? Can I drive the car?

8. Why wasn't the car ready on Sept. 7th with either the twin SC or twin turbo per the terms YOU agreed to? The reason I didn't have plans to be there was because I had intel that the car was not close to being ready.

9. Do you know what the daily loss-of-use rate is in CA?

10. Do you know what extortion really is?

11. Since June 7th, what contacts have you made with me to update me?

12. How could you have done any work to the car by June 7th when the kit wasn't ready until months later?

13. Why was my quote so much higher than the price you quoted on FB?

I have had work done on cars and custom bikes built before - sometimes taking over a year. I know that projects often run late. However, I have never been outright lied to, ripped off, jerked around, and neglected in this manner. This whole situation could have been smooth and enjoyable with clear communication, honesty, and correctly set expectations. Now it is a complete mess.

All - I am not trying to "extort" money or anything else from Sam. I had loss of use of my daily driver due to deception, miscommunication, and project mismanagement. The daily loss-of-use rate in CA is $50 per day. I requested $6,000 which was less than what I am entitled to. I have been paying for the car, as well as insuring it while it was there. I was in a rental car for 2 months while I waited for this car to be done based on the timeline that was set forth by Sam. I cancelled the project because the terms of our agreement had been breeched and a complete lack of faith that it would ever get done and/or work well. I have had a slew of PMs coming my way as well as chance encounters telling me of their terrible experiences with GTM.
What is extortion you ask? How about this answer from the California Penal Code:

Quote:
518. Extortion is the obtaining of property from another, with his
consent, or the obtaining of an official act of a public officer,
induced by a wrongful use of force or fear, or under color of
official right.


519. Fear, such as will constitute extortion, may be induced by a
threat, either:
1. To do an unlawful injury to the person or property of the
individual threatened or of a third person; or,
2. To accuse the individual threatened, or any relative of his, or
member of his family, of any crime; or,
3. To expose, or to impute to him or them any deformity, disgrace
or crime; or,
4. To expose any secret affecting him or them.



520. Every person who extorts any money or other property from
another, under circumstances not amounting to robbery or carjacking,
by means of force, or any threat, such as is mentioned in Section
519, shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170 for two, three or four years.

523. Every person who, with intent to extort any money or other
property from another, sends or delivers to any person any letter or
other writing, whether subscribed or not, expressing or implying, or
adapted to imply, any threat such as is specified in Section 519, is
punishable in the same manner as if such money or property were
actually obtained by means of such threat.
Pretty cut and dry if you ask me...that's exactly what you did, and yes, it is a crime. So, you said that if we don't give you $6k, you would charge us with criminal wrongdoing. That my friend is extortion. According to the California Penal Code, you broke the law and once we get confirmation from our attorney, we reserve the right to press charges. Bear in mind that we have more evidence to further incriminate you, but we'll leave that for court.

Red__Zed 09-26-2012 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmike2780 (Post 1934091)
It's pretty simple then, isn't it? There's a certain amount of risk involved and you have very few legal actions available should something go wrong. Contracts are required when someone has work done at the dealership. It protects both parties in case the unexpected happens. I guess my point is that at the end of the day, you chose to have the work done. If a vendor can't sign something with the basic expectations from both sides, I wouldn't want to do business with them.
That's not true at all. Contracts are helpful in making things more clear cut in potential legal proceedings, but you ABSOLUTELY maintain a right to demand anything that was agreed to or implied in a verbal contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM@GTM (Post 1934197)
What is extortion you ask? How about this answer from the California Penal Code:



Pretty cut and dry if you ask me...that's exactly what you did, and yes, it is a crime. So, you said that if we don't give you $6k, you would charge us with criminal wrongdoing. That my friend is extortion. According to the California Penal Code, you broke the law and once we get confirmation from our attorney, we reserve the right to press charges. Bear in mind that we have more evidence to further incriminate you, but we'll leave that for court.

I would recommend consulting with your lawyer before you continue to threaten him with a lawsuit for extortion. I don't have a stellar understanding of the intricacies of CA, but his request would generally not be considered extortion in most states.
Quote:
Thanks for the update. I don't plan to seek legal action against you if you comply with my reasonable requests, as stated in my prior email. I find no joy in this and am only asking to be made whole, so I can move on with my car, and you can move on with your business.

Any half-assed lawyer can spin this a settlement offer if worst comes to worst, but even better, most states define extortion in such a way that if the alleged "extorter" genuinely believes the money is owed to them, you don't have an extortion has. :tup:

I'm also not sure if you can even use the threat of a civil suit to claim you were being "extorted"


Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Dembflyr 09-26-2012 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 1933859)
This is just sad.

It seems to happen often that Someone comes on here and Complains about GTM...

GTM, I have wanted a Kit from you guys, but the record isn't looking good.

I wanted to order one about a year ago, when The post came out about the guy that bought a BRAND NEW kit and got a USED kit..

That stopped me back then.

For every post that you see about a nightmare there are probably 20 cars that are running fine.

I am a customer of GTM. I purchased a Stage I TT from them in April 2011. I installed it myself in my garage. We're there problems? Yup. Anytime that you heavily modify a car you're gonna run into issues.
I have to be honest here but most if the issues that I had we're of my own doing. There were some alignment issues I was dealing with for a while and I was convinced that it was a quality issue. Sam always dealt with me fairly. He even sent me another set of pipes even though he was convinced that there was nothing wrong with the first set.

Sam worked with me to fix a hot start issue with my original tune. It took a couple of tries but that car started perfectly when it was all settled.

Now so that I don't sound like a complete nut hugger I will say that sometimes communication is difficult if you only try to contact him thru email. But if you pick up the phone and call you'll have much better luck getting in touch with him.

Do your homework and you will be much happier in the long run.

I have since sold my Z and the new owner is enjoying the car as much as I did. The car has over 10,000 miles of boost and no major issues.

Bottom line is that I would not hesitate to do business with GTM again. But the next time Ill take what I have learned and do an even better job with the install.

I really want a 600 whp G sedan. :D

Cmike2780 09-26-2012 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1934227)
That's not true at all. Contracts are helpful in making things more clear cut in potential legal proceedings, but you ABSOLUTELY maintain a right to demand anything that was agreed to or implied
in a verbal contract
I'm not about to spar with you on this one. If you don't like what I have say, just ignore me. All I'm saying is that a verbal agreement is a lot harder prove, especially if the opposing side has physical evidence against you. You can demand all you want, but legal contracts are black and white, hard evidence that will supercede any verbal or gentlemen's agreement. I'm not saying a verbal agreement doesn't have merit. The problem is, People lie, even under oath. Contracts are there to protect the seller AND consumer. There's are reason why you normally wouldn't buy a house or a new car with only verbal agreements and a briefcase full of cash. Why should spending $30k worth of work be any different?

I'm also not a lawyer, but I did watch a whole season of law & order over the summer ....and I use to watch the people's court.

AK370Z 09-27-2012 01:11 AM
Dear OP and Sam,
you guys need to take this case and fight it outside the forum in a legal court. It's too late for us to do anything. I don't know who's telling the truth and who's lying, but I do know there are enough evidence in this thread to create a case for our court system. Unless you guys contact each other in private and come to a mutual agreement/deal, there's not much we can do at this point. It's too late. Also, the fact both of you guys mentioned attorneys, I'd be very careful what you guys disclose in these public forums. It can come back and bite you in the butt. I am sorry OP that you had to go through all that stuff but your statement or story is unclear and doesn't stack up too strong against those emails. Sam on the other hand have those time stamped emails but we really don't know what happened at his garage. We can play "Judge Judy" all day and pretend to solve the case here (on the forum) but that won't benefit anyone. It'll only cause more drama and arguments among members who has no involvement in this case. To both of you, please take my suggestion and take this case outside the forum to a legal court.

Thanks

AK

theaudir8fan 09-27-2012 01:41 AM
Coming from a completely unbiased point of view, this is a lose lose situation for both parties, no one will walk away victorious, just trying to get the compensation that they think is fair. Speaking from personal experience, GTM builds good kits that is well designed which is why i bought one, but my experience dealing with Sam was also less then satisfactory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK370Z (Post 1934392)
Dear OP and Sam,
you guys need to take this case and fight it outside the forum in a legal court. It's too late for us to do anything. I don't know who's telling the truth and who's lying, but I do know there are enough evidence in this thread to create a case for our court system. Unless you guys contact each other in private and come to a mutual agreement/deal, there's not much we can do at this point. It's too late. Also, the fact both of you guys mentioned attorneys, I'd be very careful what you guys disclose in these public forums. It can come back and bite you in the butt. I am sorry OP that you had to go through all that stuff but your statement or story is unclear and doesn't stack up too strong against those emails. Sam on the other hand have those time stamped emails but we really don't know what happened at his garage. We can play "Judge Judy" all day and pretend to solve the case here (on the forum) but that won't benefit anyone. It'll only cause more drama and arguments among members who has no involvement in this case. To both of you, please take my suggestion and take this case outside the forum to a legal court.

Thanks

AK
This is very fair and great advise for both parties, I'm sure the fault never lies solely on one side

spawn350 09-27-2012 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK370Z (Post 1934392)
Dear OP and Sam,
you guys need to take this case and fight it outside the forum in a legal court. It's too late for us to do anything. I don't know who's telling the truth and who's lying, but I do know there are enough evidence in this thread to create a case for our court system. Unless you guys contact each other in private and come to a mutual agreement/deal, there's not much we can do at this point. It's too late. Also, the fact both of you guys mentioned attorneys, I'd be very careful what you guys disclose in these public forums. It can come back and bite you in the butt. I am sorry OP that you had to go through all that stuff but your statement or story is unclear and doesn't stack up too strong against those emails. Sam on the other hand have those time stamped emails but we really don't know what happened at his garage. We can play "Judge Judy" all day and pretend to solve the case here (on the forum) but that won't benefit anyone. It'll only cause more drama and arguments among members who has no involvement in this case. To both of you, please take my suggestion and take this case outside the forum to a legal court.

Thanks

AK
I agree. I found it important to share my experience with other folks that might be considering options for what to do with their money. I can only speak for myself, but I worked incredibly hard for my money and would want to hear feedback, positive and negative, from customers and vendors to make the best decision with my $ and vehicle.

I have time stamped emails as well, but didn't feel it was worth the work to paste them in here. I will present them in court, but as you say - the members of this forum aren't the jury and no resolution will be found here. I have received numerous PMs thanking me for speaking up, and others asking for details which I have provided. I feel that I did the right thing by speaking up, and stand by that decision.

falconfixer 09-27-2012 07:27 AM
ibtl

MMC Racing 09-27-2012 08:20 AM
It is the industry standard to not deliver projects on time. Most of this comes from the fact that shops aren't staffed with project managers who can correctly estimate time and plot that against the other work they have already committed to. I applaud the OP for holding a shop to an agreed upon timetable. If he is successful in “extorting” a lost use refund, it should make GTM put more effort into project time estimation.

JMac88 09-27-2012 08:30 AM
I can't believe someone would buy a kit not knowing what he/she really wanted, and I can't believe someone would sell a kit to someone who did not know what they wanted. No wonder this failed.

Shame on both parties.

DCNISMO 09-27-2012 08:53 AM
If you want forced induction soooo bad with NO hassles....GO BUY IT FROM THE FACTORY...Used CTS-V and B8 S4 come to mind. Or get a 'Stang GT and have the Ford dealer put the blower on for you brand new and get full factory warranty. Thats my motto. In fact, I have my eyes on a V coupe sitting at an Audi dealer right now that I'm watching.

edub370 09-27-2012 10:28 AM
:wtf2:

m3chhawk 09-27-2012 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCNISMO (Post 1934573)
If you want forced induction soooo bad with NO hassles....GO BUY IT FROM THE FACTORY...Used CTS-V and B8 S4 come to mind. Or get a 'Stang GT and have the Ford dealer put the blower on for you brand new and get full factory warranty. Thats my motto. In fact, I have my eyes on a V coupe sitting at an Audi dealer right now that I'm watching.
Pretty sure you missed the point. This isn't a reliability or warranty issue? :icon14:

SS_Firehawk 09-27-2012 11:11 AM
If I wanted a Unicorn, I would have just bought the F'n unicorn, not attempt to put a horn on a horse and feed it skittles in the hopes of it sh!tting rainbows.

This thread is beyond comical. People with 1/100th of the story jumping to conclusions and arguing over what if's. I seriously wasted 30 minutes that I just can't get back.

elperuano 09-27-2012 12:20 PM
Unicorn **** rainbows?

SS_Firehawk 09-27-2012 12:32 PM
Robot Unicorn Attack!, everything about the game screams, well how do I put this... Not heterosexual, but it's somehow fun and addicting.

But I was referring to the OP purchasing an AWD G37S and wanting TT's ot twin CS's and calling his estimate PDF "Project Skyline", which the G37 is considered, but more people associate that name with the GTR... Which we all fondly call Godzilla for its track (and lesser cars) destroying ability.

DCNISMO 09-27-2012 01:33 PM
Quote:
Pretty sure you missed the point. This isn't a reliability or warranty issue?
I don't think so at all, I will repeat....buy a car that was engineered for FI and sold that way from the factory IF you want it to have a warranty and no install or tune problems. They can afford to blow up engines in testing, have tons of engineering support, can adjust chassis for fitment...yadayada. Tuners can't compete with that. So your bound to have problems and hiccups. The OP wanted FI and a new system at that...and problems were encountered. He should have expected that. That' part of the game. I'm an engineer..I test things, blow up things, purposely try to crash software, break things. I have also thought of adding FI to my Nismo...but really I'll probably just go get a used V or used 13 Stang Shelby at some point since I know they were designed that way from the start...with oil systems, brake systems, cooling systems, clutch systems, tranny systems, and an operating system made for it.

elperuano 09-27-2012 02:28 PM
To each his own, if u wanna be bland and bug a car off the lot and not personalize it to your liking so be it.
I've had no problems with my Gtm stage 2 kit. Rides like stok just with almost 300hp more.
This isn't a warranty issue or anything. Lots if people have added FI to their cars with no problem, I'm one of them. Just need to do your homework. Good install and tune should minimize any problems that might arise. That's all there is to it. There's always a risk, but those cars from the factory come with problems as well. Service at the dealers seems to be very full of warranty work there.

swiss370Z 09-27-2012 02:33 PM
This discussion is more than just bad!

Please stop it.....PLEASE!!!:tup:

elperuano 09-27-2012 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss370Z (Post 1935280)
This discussion is more than just bad!

Please stop it.....PLEASE!!!:tup:
Greetings from USA, this is how we throw down here on the intranet in the US of A!

gbrettin 09-27-2012 03:20 PM
It sounds like only two specific people are going to win in this venture... Lawyers.

W.O.W. 370Z 09-27-2012 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elperuano (Post 1935357)
Greetings from USA, this is how we throw down here on the intranet in the US of A!
http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/upl...america-20.jpg

elperuano 09-27-2012 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.O.W. 370Z (Post 1935361)
Hahahahahahaha! 'MURICA! :bowrofl:

sloboi 09-27-2012 06:50 PM
Getting a TT installed from GTM with Rob at Z Car Garage.

/fingers crossed

That was some good drama, though. Everybody likes drama.

roplusbee 09-27-2012 08:06 PM
Wow! Why do people try to attack GTM on this forum? I don't know much about their products, but I can say that they are very careful with information that they release about their products or ANYONE that attacks them directly.


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