Turbo oil drain problems w/AAM kit
 

Hey guys, Im having issues with my drivers side turbo burning oil through the exhaust side, and also pooling oil in the charge pipes. I have the AAM turbo kit.

If I drive the car without hitting boost I have no issues at all, but once I give it some throttle and hit boost, it will start smoking. Then I found a lot of oil in the charge piping. My first thought was the oil wasn't being drained properly. I increased the size of the line from a -8 to a -10 and I'm still having the issue. Im starting to think that Im going to have to get a scavenge pump to resolve my issue.

Do you guys have any input? The PCV setup from AAM is not installed therefor oil isn't coming into the turbo from the valve cover. The only connection to oil is through the turbo itself. There is absolutely no shaft play either. Im having no issues at all with the passenger side. Its dry as a bone. The drivers side line almost levels out where it rests on the front subframe, which to me seems to be an issue, but there is absolutely no way to route the line to where it doesn't do that. Also, I was always under the impression that you want your turbo oil drain above the level of oil in the pan, which I havent seen any twin turbo Z's that do that. I need yalls help. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

A local guy here had to install an Exa pump to get oil to drain with his AAM kit but I think his problem was during idle when there wasn't enough turbo spin to force the oil back into the pan.

I read somewhere that some one used restrictors to slow down the oil going to the turbo ... but I would be carful doing that

Borgwarner EFR’s ??


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I did some research about a restrictor but apparently the EFR turbo has a built in restrictor according to Borg Warner.

JSur, yep they are the EFR turbos.


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Any noticeable difference in return line length, slack, or routing complexity between pass and drivers side? Any difference in turbo mounting height or drain port orientation?

What size are the feed lines?

I am certain you already know this, but turbo gravity drains can be finicky so even a small adjustment could completely alleviate the problem.


edit: I just reread your post and you mention that the drain line levels out a little on the drivers side... you might consider taking some pics and sending to AAM to see if they have any ideas to adjust the routing? My drain lines also have very little downward slope, but seem to be OK.... even adjusting the drain so that you can get a few extra degrees of slope may solve it.

Have you gotten in touch with AAM and/or Borg Warner? Could be the result of a defect or failure as well.

The drivers side turbo uses a 45 degree fitting for the oil drain, and due to the starter has to be angled somewhat away from the motor. So the line has to curve back to the motor and then somewhat levels out. I've tried to see if I could change the routing of the line to make it better but due to the close proximity of the oil pan to the subframe, the line will always rest on the subframe. It's driving me crazy.

I've done a compression test and all of my compression rates are very good. I'm going to see if I can borrow a leak down tester also to make sure. When I got tuned I was having an issue with the dipstick blowing out... that's why I removed the AAM pcv setup. I haven't had any issues since I removed them. Before I could drive the car and when I parked it and turned it off, I could hear burbling from the motor. When I pulled the dipstick I would hear a rush of air. That has been alleviated but I'm still going to see if for some reason I'm getting leakage through the cylinders causing the line not to drain properly. I'm pretty certain I don't have any issues... but I'm unsure what to do next. I would like to avoid having to do a scavenge pump because I like simplicity.

I did talk to AAM and they said that according to Borg Warner, it's almost impossible for the turbo seals to go bad due to the design. Something about the seals being similar to a piston ring. They suggested that I clean it out and try it again. That didn't work for me obviously lol.


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That is kind of scary with the crank case being pressurized and blowing the dip stick out. I'll bet that was quite a surprise the first time!!! Did it just pop out or did it like fire across the room? I feel like that would give me a pretty fierce case of the giggles.

Since you are finding oil in the charge pipe and don't have PCV plumbed, I agree its 100% coming from the turbo, I wouldn't worry about the motor at all. Maybe you have a defect or blockage in the return line plumbing?

One test I can think of is to swap the pass/drivers side turbos... but it would probably be a ton of work... it would rule out a turbo defect though.

You mentioned the problem comes with throttle. Strictly with throttle? Or with RPM? Happens regardless of whether the oil is cold or hot? Wondering if it is dependent on oil pressure.

What size is the return line? Looks like some setups use some relatively small AN lines.... on my kit the returns are some pretty fat hoses which are almost like reservoirs in and of themselves.

If the crankcase is vented correctly you would seem to have a problem with excessive blow by.
Personally I would take a long hard look at how your crank case ventilation is setup.
You mention you dont have the AAM setup connected, what exactly is your setup.
Post some Pics.

I'm not sure how the oil dipstick thing worked lol. Jon at Z1 tuned it and told me about it. My car had oil all over it lol, but they cleaned it pretty well for me.

As long as I don't boost I don't have any issues. I don't know about the cold or hot thing because I wait until my oil temps are at a good operating temp before I do any hard driving.

The return line on that side is -10.


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AAMs PCV setup had a gold check valve between the valve cover vent and the intake before the turbo. The issue is when the check valve was there I would get some strange issues when it came to pressures inside the crankcase. So I deleted them and vented the valve cover to the atmosphere. Unfortunately I can't take a picture of my setup because I have the motor back out.

I called AAM and they think I have positive crankcase pressure as well. They gave me a procedure to do to test that out but since my car isn't running I can't do that. So what I'm going to do is do a leak down test to see if I have unacceptable leakage. I don't suspect that though because my compression numbers are actually really good, but I'm going to test it just to rule that out. I'll let you guys know what I figure out. I don't plan on having the engine out very long.


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I had a simular problem with oil backing up in my passenger side turbo, solved it by taking the engine back out and reclocking it so the drain port is at a higher degree downward angle. If the two ports are too close to level it won't flow through and back up into the turbo.

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Once again you really need to be sure of your pcv setup.
Boost pressure into the crankcase will also create this scenario.
The dipstick incident is the key to whats going on.
One can imagine with that much pressure, an oil return line has zero chance of functioning properly, regardless of its size. Its a wonder both Turbo's aren't crying oil.
Sounds like your onto it now though, good luck with it Mate.

I have the same problem 'Smoking Turbo's' with the AAM kit BW 71/63's.
Brand new built motor done right at MA-Motorsports.

Had to remove my car from AAM after 2 years - seems they were using my car as a Test Mule - they blew the (built) motor on the Dyno after 3 months of testing - then tried to get away with it.

The car is now at MA-Motorsports and the rebuild / build is almost done.
The AAM turbo kit smokes like a bandit due to poor engineering regarding the placement of the turbos too low and too close to the oil pan to drain properly.

Fast Intentions kit doesn't have this issue.
Looks like I'll be having to go the Scavenge Pump route to solve yet another AAM induced issue.

Should have gone with FI .... hope this helps the 'new guys / gals' considering going boosted....

MA-Motorsports just installed an RB-Racing Scavenge Pump ... helical gears and professional racing grade construction and quality.
Will comment once I take delivery of the car and test drive it ... Not expecting any disappointing surprises - MA-Motorsports has been top drawer all the way.

WOW, I knew someone had an AAM kit car in the shop. Didn't know it was yours. Good luck with it.

I’ve never heard of this issue before. I’ve had the AAM kit on my car for over 30k miles now. The placement of the turbos are my least favorite thing about the kit but I haven’t had any issues.


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You are lucky.

I am about to install my AAM kit in a few weeks. Just reading this today.

Can any of you guys give an as precise as possible description of proper clocking the turbos? Perhaps with a drawing or pictures? I would really like to get this right the first time..

Would be much appreciated!

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I had the AAM smoking issues at idle like jwick said awhile back. We ended up putting an exapump to clear the return lines. Also my dipstick kept blowing out as well, it was fixed and held down with a spring.

After 3 years at 700+ whp I blew the head gasket at a road course. I'm currently rebuilding with FI Stage 3 TT as the 7163s weren't big enough.

Hopefully this info helps someone!

Yep ... it did help me.
Can I ask where you mounted the exapump - the fittings, hose sizes, the configuration/integration into your system - and is it quiet ?
lol ... the 7163's weren't big enough ???

I have a G37 Sedan, we put the oil cooler in the driver side of the bumper and the exapump behind it. It definitely was not quiet, but once the car was on and running it wasn't as noticeable.

http://i.imgur.com/lPMgnlU.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/es6yoi.jpg

Here you can see my backyard solution to the dipstick blowing out :rofl2:
http://i.imgur.com/s9Io5B8.jpg

Yeah when I saw AAM themselves couldn't hit 1000whp on the 7163s, with a stroker, and upgraded intercooler I decided their upgrades were not cost effective enough for me.

Hopefully the FI Stage 3 Xona XR 65•64 will be big enough!
https://i.imgur.com/PueOf7K.jpg

Thanks for the info ... helps out a lot.
You only needed one of the Exa pumps ?
How did you incorporate both turbo's through the pump and then back to the ??? I have a catch can so I'm trying to figure this in to the equasion.

BTW - lol ... I like your exploding dip stick solution :tiphat:

How does the oil from the turbo currently route, I assume back to the oil pan. If that’s one line back to the pan then there’s a tee tying the two together. Run that single line to the pump and then back to the oil pan. If it’s two lines back to the pan then tee them together to one line and run that to the pump. you might have to plug one hole if there’s two on the pan.

I've been doing some further checking ... re the turbo smoke issue.
RB Racing makes a series of pumps with helical gears that look promising.
RB is a group of guys who are Bonneville racing enthusiasts with a passion for performance.
They are proud of their technology and products.

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

Scavenge Pump Installation
 

***UPDATE***
The Scavenge Pump is now successfully installed and the car is completed and ready to be picked up.
Jon at MA-Motorsports says the the pump works as advertised and has dramatically reduce the Turbo Smoke issue.

"Carl and Brian went on a good long test drive on Friday. Everything seems to be working great.
The scavenge pump definitely helped with the oil smoke."

Unfortunately I don't have BEFORE and AFTER pics to show the difference but will comment when I pick up the car.
That might be in a week or 2 weather and work schedule depending.

The installation looks fantastic ... they mounted the pump behind the passengers side wheel well.
The plumbing and wiring were done by Shane - who is a bit of a craftsman I might add.
The Oil Filter is easily accessible for oil changes although in one photo the filter seems to be hopelessly surrounded by oil lines.
This scavenge pump is an RB Racing design and manufacture product...helical gears for quiet operation. These guys are consummate professionals and use their own products on the Bonneville Salt Flats as a proving ground.

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

MA-Motorsports added their logo for the custom installation.
Much of the massive amount of custom work done on the car by MA-M is 'hidden' from view.

My hat's off :tiphat: to all of those who have played a positive role in making this build a reality.

Will post again once I get the car back and put it through it's paces.

:tup:

Thanks for posting! Lookgs good, happy this worked well for you. I still hope i wont need it though..

Before the exa pump was placed. Did you run the Passenger side drain line "over" the oil filter, or underneath??

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Haven't seen the installation yet personally -- just these pics -- which show no oil lines over the filter. I did ask them about it and they assured me that there was plenty of room to access the filter for EZ oil changes...which is shown in the 3rd picture

Smoke here as well :-(

Might go the exa pump route too. Which pump did they install? The std, super or superx?

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Will have to get back to you on this ... The model # isn't listed on my invoice.
I will most likely be going down to MA-M this Friday to do a final walk around before picking the car up ---OR--- having it shipped to NJ.

Wait what? Blew your motor? Test mule?

yep ... long story short ... when dealing with AAM be very wary and keep a tight hold on to your wallet. Check their invoices for double billing and made up charges.

They congratulated me when they let me know I was 'selected' to be a part of their sponsorship program --- tho' when I read the agreement/contract after the fact I realized that they had taken over complete control of my car.
To qualify for that 20% discount on parts I had to agree to supply them with professional photographs of my car - I had to advertise their shop at car shows and at the race track - and I had to allow them use of my car as they saw fit - including testing new products.
Failure to do so they could go back and charge me for the discounts I had received from them. By the way - their prices are marked up substantially from the start to begin with.
Think about it.

They used my car as a test mule to develop their Stage II turbos, their Intake Manifold, and their Twin Fuel Pump.
They had my car on the Dyno for 3 months . eventually blowing the motor.
after which the sent me a bill for $5000 + to do a Leak down Test and remove the heads to check the piston rings.
NOPE

Their Stage II Turbo's smoke excessively and the IWG's don't work will with the EcuTEK Tuning software (Boost Spikes)
MA-Motorsports installed External Waste Gates in order to correct the boost spikes and had to install a scavenge pump to correct the turbo smoke - the side effect of this was that the $6000 (yes, $6000) AAM Flex Fuel install and Tune was now trashed - kaput - useless - a huge waste of time and money.
Their Twin Fuel Pump is too complicated to work reliably (I had to replace it with the Twin Fuel Pumps from CJM Motorsports (PHUNK)
Their Intake Manifold does work acceptably but it is a compromised design in my opinion.

This is just the tip of the iceberg concerning my 2 year never ending build and horror show experience with AAM.
I was a CA$H COW.
They dangled me from the yardarm for 2 years and although they promised the world - they didn't deliver.
MA-Motorsports had to undo their work and start from scratch.

Speechlessness

I’m a CJM whore

Damn!! Seems like AAM just dropped the ball. There's a DannyZ video of an AAM twin Nismo here in Fla. and on decel it was kicking up huge smoke. I kinda chuckled at the video because the owners son said it was because there was no catch can but I knew right away it was oil drain.

AAm are suspect, reminds of me another shady company.

Damn shame too because they had good concepts, just like the company that shall not be named. This community is too small to be pooping on people and thinking it's not gonna float and stink up your name.

:iagree:

This is where you would like to see some bodies swinging on the gallows.

What is crazy is MA-motorsports just sits quietly in the background fixing other peoples mistakes. Not saying anything or bashing a sole. That has to get old.