VK Swap Discussion...
 

So I have been contemplating the idea of using the latest VK v8 in a swap. The motors can be had for cheaper than our VHR motors...

My Ideal setup:

De-Bored VK56VD from 5.6L to 4.8L block with lightweight forged internals. By doing this we have effectively made a squared v8 @ 92 Bore and 92 stroke... A very potent combination! This will give us the strongest v8 possible. Personally, I would want a high compression 12.1~13.0:1 compression ratio and 9,000 RPM red line.

Optional: Flat Plane Crank shaft... What this would do would even out the exhaust pulses and effectively make the motor act as two I4's strapped together... Which means you would have a lighter assembly which revs faster, a larger power band, and a very unique sound geared to sound similar to a formula 1 style car in higher RPM's.




Why the VK56VD?: This is the latest version of the VK motor which supports both Direct Injection and VVEL! This would be the closest VK motor to a direct swap that hopefully in theory we could keep our ECU....

Why De-Bore?: Toyota and many others have proven that a squared setup between bore and stroke produces the strongest motors... Whether it is N/A or FI a Squared motor is going to be the most reliable.

Why High Compression?: Because RACECAR!

Why 9,000 RPM?: See Above ^^^ lol also a broader RPM range gives us more room to work with on the motor. Would a De-Bored aka "Sleeved" motor make it to 9,000 rpm? I dont know... It would be fun to try though!

Why Flat Plane Crank?: Ferrari and many other exotic v8 cars have used this technology and have had impressive results with it. Remember the 458 Italia???? some argue is the best production v8 of all time... Lets hear that bad boy scream!




What are your thoughts on the subject?

This would be an amazing and joyous sound if it came from under the hood of our cars:

It's you again? :shakes head:

LOL JK :p

I think this would be a great build and i think i've seen one (work in progress). Just don't tell me you're gonna buy a third Z for your daily again :bowrofl::p

Lol this would be a down the road project... Lol nothing immediate just wanted to started the conversation in the community.

You know, GTM is balls deep in making VK swaps easier for us. It may be a good idea to have a chat with them about it.

Wow, I would love to make this swap happen.. A light wieght V8 that revs to 9,000 is awesome no matter what car you put it in. We had a 302 Boss in a truck and that was fun up to 6 or 7,000 rpm.

I like the idea very much. Wire harness, sensor maping and building would be PITA. Might be better to have a Harness and ECU made spacific for our application.

What Trans would you want to use?

Drift Emporiums G35 Supercharged Titan V8 Drift Car - YouTube



Suscribed...:tiphat:

they are??.. man, i love GTM :driving: lol

I have already been in talks with Sam ;) I just don't want to be a first adopter again!!!! Lol. I love the Z as a car and I think we would be looking at the following items.

Engine mounts
Engine harness
Sensors
And miscellaneous items

That is a main engine harness

One the 350Z forum I was reading that Sam did this already to a guy in CA. The communist DMV in CA. was going to give them a hard time registering. Mainly because the trans swap and dash lights. As long as the dash lights match up to what the car had stock it would be good to register. Probably not an issue for a manual.


It would be cool to do it and make it a sleeper with cut out's :stirthepot: .

I wouldn't de-bore it. I would short-stoke it, and use longer rods for a better ratio. At 9,000 rpm, with a longer stoke. Your piston speed may be too high for the rings to live.

Here's a quote from a book I read:

Well, the modern Formula 1 engine is an incredible beast with a spec sheet that makes car geeks like me queasy. The basics are out-of-this-world incredible. From just 3.0 liters and 10 cylinders—without horsepower-enhancing turbocharging or supercharging—an F1 engine makes about 900 horsepower. It does this by revving to an incredible 19,000 rpm, or more than double what a rev-happy Honda S2000 engine spins to.

To keep the pistons and connecting rods from flying apart at those revolutions, an F1 piston travels only about 1.6 inches compared with the four-inch stroke of the Corvette Z06 V-8. The bore is roughly 3.80 inches, comparable to the 4.13-inch bore of the Vette's 7.0-liter mill.

Just imagine if you could rev that LS to 19K! Maybe if one spent untold millions in engine R&D. Well, probably not due to engine dimensions as Rusty suggests.

Would we want to use a VK56DE or the VK56VD for the swap?

The VK56DE is a 5.6 L (5552 cc) version built in Decherd, Tennessee. Bore is 98 mm (3.9 in) and stroke is 92 mm (3.6 in). Output is 317 hp - 320 hp (227 kW) at 4900 rpm with 385 to 393 lb·ft (522-533 Nm) of torque at 3600 rpm. It has aluminum-alloy block and heads and low-friction molybdenum-coated pistons. The valvetrain is a dual overhead cam (DOHC) design with a continuously variable valve timing control system (CVTCS) on the intake valves. It also has 4 valves per cylinder with micro-finished camshafts and ductile iron cylinder liners for increased durability.

Motorsport

Nismo also uses the VK56DE for FIA GT1 racing. In race trim, it produces 600 horsepower and 479 pound-feet of torque.[5]

The Nissan Motorsport VK56DE was launched in Australia for the V8 Supercars Championship in 2013 by Kelly Racing in Melbourne. The engine has been reduced in capacity to 4,990cc to fit the V8 Supercars regulations. It has a bore and stroke of 102.69mm x 75.31mm. It will be fitted to a Nissan Altima version of the V8 Supercars "Car of the Future" specification that will compete from 2013 onwards.[6]

Applications:

2004–present Nissan Armada, 317 hp (236 kW) and 385 lb·ft (522 N·m)
2004–present Nissan Titan, 317 hp (236 kW) and 385 lb·ft (522 N·m)
2004–2010 Infiniti QX56, 320 hp (240 kW) and 393 lb·ft (533 N·m)
2010–present Nissan Patrol, 320 hp (240 kW) and 393 lb·ft (533 N·m)
2008–2012 Nissan Pathfinder, 310 hp (230 kW) and 388 lb·ft (526 N·m)
2012–present Nissan NV2500 HD, 317 hp (236 kW) and 385 lb·ft (522 N·m)
2012–present Nissan NV3500 HD, 317 hp (236 kW) and 385 lb·ft (522 N·m)
2012–present Nissan NV Passenger, 317 hp (236 kW) and 385 lb·ft (522 N·m)
2009–present Nissan GT-R GT1, 600 hp (450 kW) and 479 lb·ft (649 N·m)
2013-onwards Nissan Altima, V8 Supercars Australia, 650 hp (480 kW)
Notes:

The Titan, Armada, and Pathfinder power figures are for regular 87 octane fuel. The 320 hp (240 kW) Infiniti QX56 is tuned more for premium (91+ octane) fuel.
Some VK56DE powered vehicles are E85 capable.


The VK56VD is a 5.6 L (5552 cc) 32-valve, DOHC, Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) aluminum-alloy V8 and features Nissan's advanced VVEL (Variable Valve Event & Lift System). The direct injection system provides better wide-open throttle performance and improved fuel economy and emissions performance by reducing engine knock, improving combustion stability and controlling injection more precisely. In the Infiniti M56, it is rated at 420 hp (310 kW) and 417 lbf·ft (565 N·m) of torque. The engine is built at Nissan's Yokohama Engine facility.

Applications:

2010–present Nissan Patrol, 400 hp (300 kW) and 413 lbf·ft (560 N·m)
2011–present Infiniti QX, 400 hp (300 kW) and 413 lbf·ft (560 N·m)
2011–present Infiniti M56, 420 hp (310 kW) and 417 lbf·ft (565 N·m)

The real question to ask is... what did everything cost? Or what will it cost to get this all done?

I would want to use the VK50VE if Nissan V8s were the only option. Otherwise LS3 for a budget build or a built LS7 for all out power

You can be the next guy haha, Who knows, when you do actually go through with it, they might have everything ironed out. What I would do for a M56 engine in my Z... Slap some bolt ons, tune it and call it a day.

Bad choice in my opinion. VVEL for one thing. Plus it's too tall.

The VK50VE is a 5.0 L V8 engine with 390 hp @6500 rpm and 500 N·m (370 lb·ft) @4400 rpm and redline is at 6800 rpm. Bore x stroke (mm) are 95.5 x 87.7 and compression ratio is 10.9:1. It has Nissans VVEL technology.[4]

Applications:

2009–present Infiniti FX50

That's a tall motor!

Our motors are pretty tall too. I still prefer the VK56VD, but I'm sure the external dimensions are similar to the VK50VE

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...z/967a65b6.png

The idea for using the VD version was to keep things as simple and direct swappable as possible. The DE has been proven to workin the 350 and drift 370z but you have to gut everything to make it happy.

Now, short stroking the motor while limiting the volume and travel wouldn't it also leave the motor more liable for a bent of torqued rod? My thoughts were to limit the amount of mass being propelled... Most of the time when a motor drops a rod it's usually from the sudden deacceleration of the piston head... Make that smaller and lighter and your rods and pins are less likely to fatigue and break. However, increasing rpm will create more friction and heat which could lead to burnt piston rings and oil consumption...

Also by deboring the motor you can run a flat plane crank without balancing shafts... You are effectively under the 2.5L per bank magic number where you are not getting too much vibration or harmonics from the opposing block.

Talk to Kelly Racing in Braeside, Melbourne (aka Nissan Motorpsorts Australia) about a 640hp VK56 V8Supercar engine .... won;t cost much (....... you might get change from 70-grand ..).

RB

the flatplane cranks, destroking, all that fun kind of stuff isn't as simple as rod ratios, or keeping under a certain displacement, up in those revs now your changing cylinder wall oiling, required weights, bearing loads, heavily increasin second order harmonics, it's crazy talk if your not looking to spend more than double the price of the car just to develop a block. not to mention now you need to change all the cam profiles spring rates, the timing chain tensioner force, as well as guide placement, it takes race companies years to test and develope something like that, thats why you;ll never see it for us, not enough volume nor money in our market for that. you're best bet would be trying to buy one of the australian v8 supercar motors from a team and rebuild it. even then it's going to cost you buttloads. If this where an ls or an old 350 then the parts are out there but there are over 10million chevy 350's made so the market is HUGE. an old race motor is going to be the best bet for the one or two guys who want and can afford to get a 9000rpm nissan v8 making over 600hp na. look at the falconer engines its only remotely affordable way to get something like that and look at what those cost (epic god awesome bitchin level 11 tho lol)Welcome to Ryan Falconer Racing Engines! - IRL Street V8 FAQ

I'm sure something is coming for the rest of us who don't have THAT kind of change lying around

If you got cubic dollars, you can do anything you want. There is something out there for everybody. It's just a matter of finding it. LOL Changing the bore and stroke. Different strokes for different folks. LOL

true i said a couple people could do this so heres an idea they should start a group buy thread i'm sure if 15 people got together in the "I want to spend 80,000 for just the motor" thread a race company would take you up on it. If we want it to happen we need at least that.

Edit: Not trying to be pessimistic or anything, that is really the least it would take if you want a new supermotor. otherwise only option like i said is to buy a class racing engine, either the menard racing corr motor or the Australian motor. They could always try the mp4-12c m838t that is basically an new old nissan irl vrh35

Or take the cheap route and buy a 427 sbc, mechanical roller cam, all forged and get +600 HP and rev to +7000 for $10K. Either way, for this kind of power you'll need to beef up everything aft of the crank.

Oh, and you can tune the sbc yourself which is a helluva lot easier than a VK.

everything aft of the crank? why? or drivetrain is stout as it comes so far as power capacity goes. 700+ is not an issue for the trans and certainly not the diff.

You can verify this? The autos don't appear to be all that stout.

There are now several people with upwards of 450-500hp with no issues. A lot of trouble can be avoided increasing line pressures and not going WOT in 5-7 since the clutches in those gears are small.
Of course for all out power GTMs Stage 4 would be a necessity I think its like 8k :eek:

the manual is i could care less about all automatics. Nissan has been building beefy manuals every since the z32

Guys remember it is not HP that kills a transmission it is TQ...

yeah and how much torque did your car make last time it was dyno'd?

Edit: a quick look at the MAF thread says 710ftlbs.

I know this question is a bit left field, but, I'll ask anyways.

- Because the Bore and stroke are very close to that of the LS1, would it be possible to use some of the internals of the LS1 in the VK56. Let me explain...


The VK56 bore/stroke/rod length is 3.9"/3.6"/6.0826"
The LS1 bore/stroke/rod length is 3.898"/3.622"/6.098

Yes, I am assuming you would have some machining involved, but because bore spacing is essentially identical, the crank should be very close in journal width, and you would need to machine the journal diameter (if all goes well, I'll have both engines in my garage, I already have an LS3 that's going in a SL-C, but might get a VK56 for close to nothing, but won't be until late this year before I'll get a chance to tear into them both.

The reason for this,, you could build the bottom end quite cheap if you did it this way, because LSx engine parts (even the forged ones) can be had for pretty cheap.

On the top end, depending if you have a DE or VD, not sure if other parts would swap out with other engines (valve springs, retainers, ect),

Ive been pricing parts to start an LS build for my 370 and am closing in on 30k without the fab work to make it work. So I guess Im starting on my wifes 4.6 3V for her mustang first :(
Quality parts get ridiculous fast.
Im looking to make a short stroke big bore off an RHS block plus a 2.9L Whipple, solid roller cam, dry sump, and 8000+ rpm. Im only wanting 5-600 hp but I think Im going to end up close to 1k.

$30,000 on an LS build?, What are you putting in it?

I have an L92 I picked up for $2,700 with wire harness, pedal assembly, and all the accessories. I priced a nice stroker rebuild and came in about $5,000. That's all forged internals, upgraded springs, valves, pushrods, cams. I'm putting it in my SL-C and figure I'll get around 550HP or so, which is more than enough for a 2300lb car.

You can pick up an LS7 crate enigine for $13k or so, with just a cam and a good exhaust you'll be close to 600HP or more naturally aspirated. The 370z isn't that heavy of a car, I'm thinking 1000HP (which if you are going to do it that way, turbos would be your best bet, is more for bragging rights then being able to use it on anything but the drag strip. Even on a road course 1000HP isn't very useful, and probably would make it so much of a hand full to drive it won't be that much fun. Before you get wrapped up in the numbers, I would drive something close to that to see if it is something you even want.

I think you misunderstood. Im only looking for 5-600. Im sure if I did a NA build I would be around 700 ish but I would like a blower especially since I will be reducing the stroke and losing some torque. Mainly I am making sure it will be as reliable as I can get it and that certainly drives up cost. I wouldnt trust an LS7 past bolt ons since their sleeves are so thin.

Thats why I am going with an aftermarket block which is 5k. Then finishing the shortblock is another 2.5-3k. The heads are 3k+ and thats not including rockers which are at least 1k since I want to spin it so high. The dry sump is at least 3.5k. Remote water pump 1k and so on.

Quality parts are really high of course but I think it will be worth it. I want a strong foundation I can build on and as I get better add more power to it. I am looking forward to the fueled racing LS kit for our cars.

So you want a blower and spin the hell out of the motor? That seems a bit off unless you look at a centrifugal setup. I've seen a ton of LS3's that make 550-600+ whp with just boltons, cam, and a blower... and be reliable. Why do you need a dry sump? Road racing, drifting?

I don't know the details of what your car will be used for, but for the amount of money you are throwing at it, it really doesn't make sense. You have the same cost of the car under the hood.

Like I said I want plenty of room to grow. Spinning a Whipple up high isnt unusual I will be limited as to the size of the pulley I can run which will keep it under 10 psi for sure but I wont need that much pressure anyway.
The dry sump is pretty critical for high rpm. 1. It will reduce windage to basically nothing 2. It will allow me to use lower tension rings since it will pull a large vacuum which has the added benefit of reducing friction. 3. Consistent oil supply will be absolutely essential and a dry sump will provide that. Plus it will help with clearances since the pan is about 1.5" thick.
I primarily will be drag racing but I know I will want to get into road courses as well.

Whoever said putting money into cars made sense anyway? Lol

Touche haha. I wanted to go moar fast and dropping $15k to do so made more financial sense than selling and buying something faster. I wanted to keep my Z, the parts I already invested and keep torque in check because of my stock block. Supercharging made sense. But fack would I love to have a VK56VD under the hood.

I agree. That was my original thought as well. But with performance parts scarce it turned me off to the idea. It is a fantastic engine though. It sounds amazing upwards of 8000 rpm.

That's kinda why I'm wondering if you can use some of the bottom end parts off the LSx engine on the VK56, being the measurements are very very close. (Hope I'll find out soon),

as for the top end, I believe the engine I'm getting is the VK56VD. That being the case, I won't need to do much for the top end except maybe stiffer springs. The VVEL ranges from 0 - 280 degrees of cam timing, and if you tweak the "magic screw" you can get 300 degrees with 12.5mm of lift, which is more than enough to feed it to 9000rpm if that is your hearts desire.

I think the only trick will be the direct injection. They supply enough fuel for 420hp,, but if you wanted say 600 or so,, I wonder if they could handle it, or is there an aftermarket for it.

Where is this magic screw you talk of?