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-   -   Horrible handling (http://www.the370z.com/track-autocross-drifting-dragstrip/60692-horrible-handling.html)

SPOHN 09-26-2012 11:25 AM

^very true. I had no issues with full stiff in the rear until I added a cage at Road Atlanta. Then when going to AMP which is all down hill off camber turns it threw me for a loop. I guess I took it for granted. More to learn.

laze1 09-27-2012 07:03 AM

check you shock settings...

Shamu 09-27-2012 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.Bonanni (Post 1933213)
There's no standard sway bar setting for every car. There's a whole list of things that can affect where your sway bars should be set. The track alone is a major one, I have completely different sway settings for different tracks. What you have done to the rest of your car is also a huge factor: spring rates, dampening settings, tire size, tire compound, alignment settings, suspension geometry, aero, diff settings, and all of that put together and how they react with one another. I guess my point is, there's no way any of us can say that having your rear sway on full stiff is always bad. There's just too many other pieces of the puzzle we don't have.

Just saying something is wrong if someone needs full firm on larger aftermarket rear swaybar. I'd be looking at every element to assure that wasn't something in my equation.

M.Bonanni 09-27-2012 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamu (Post 1934522)
Just saying something is wrong if someone needs full firm on larger aftermarket rear swaybar. I'd be looking at every element to assure that wasn't something in my equation.

If we're speaking in general then I disagree, especially if you don't have a wide array of spring rates/dampers/alignment tools/tire sizes/etc at the track which I am sure none of us do. Sometimes you have to stiffen up the rear sway to compensate for other parts of the setup or even conditions. A super bumpy track with a lot of tight turns might be an example. You wouldn't necessarily want really stiff spring rates yet you would want to stiffen up the rear to rotate through the low speed corners. Keep in mind I am talking in terms of using off-the-shelf parts not fully adjustable fully custom real race car parts. Sometimes we have to make do with what we've got access to which isn't always the ideal situation.

Now if we're talking about the OP's case in particular then I don't think he needs to be full firm on the rear sway at all, I think that is the problem, or a large part of it. Toe issues under load would likely feel more squirmy and unpredictable (like this :driving:) or even result in snap oversteer and not a gradual predictable mid-corner/exit slide. A broken shock would also not be a gradual and predictable loss of traction plus handling would be different in right handers vs. left handers and it would also be felt under braking as the broken side would not be controlling the spring. Shocks settings is the next likely issue but I still still think its a combo of the rear sway being too stiff and application of the throttle being too early which is breaking the rear traction. It's the fact that the oversteer is gradual and predictable that makes me think its handling balance/driving related instead of a mechanical issue.

Anyway, just my two cents. Hard to say anything for sure without data or driving it myself.

Shamu 09-27-2012 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.Bonanni (Post 1934588)
If we're speaking in general then I disagree, especially if you don't have a wide array of spring rates/dampers/alignment tools/tire sizes/etc at the track which I am sure none of us do. Sometimes you have to stiffen up the rear sway to compensate for other parts of the setup or even conditions. A super bumpy track with a lot of tight turns might be an example. You wouldn't necessarily want really stiff spring rates yet you would want to stiffen up the rear to rotate through the low speed corners. Keep in mind I am talking in terms of using off-the-shelf parts not fully adjustable fully custom real race car parts. Sometimes we have to make do with what we've got access to which isn't always the ideal situation.

Now if we're talking about the OP's case in particular then I don't think he needs to be full firm on the rear sway at all, I think that is the problem, or a large part of it. Toe issues under load would likely feel more squirmy and unpredictable (like this :driving:) or even result in snap oversteer and not a gradual predictable mid-corner/exit slide. A broken shock would also not be a gradual and predictable loss of traction plus handling would be different in right handers vs. left handers and it would also be felt under braking as the broken side would not be controlling the spring. Shocks settings is the next likely issue but I still still think its a combo of the rear sway being too stiff and application of the throttle being too early which is breaking the rear traction. It's the fact that the oversteer is gradual and predictable that makes me think its handling balance/driving related instead of a mechanical issue.

Anyway, just my two cents. Hard to say anything for sure without data or driving it myself.

We can agree to disagree. I would argue your baseline setup is flawed if you need to go full firm in rear. Increasing roll stiffness in rear on our cars is big no no. He'll I run 1000 lb fronts and 450 lb rears with stock rear bar. My car still turns well enough that I don't have to touch a thing in ax. Obviously JRZs give me tons of adjustment. I just increase front bump for track. But again with way our suspension dynamics work if you find full firm in rear is only way to turn you haven't set baseline up properly. Believe me I have had top teams work with me in analyzing setup and our cars already have issue getting power down increasing rear bar is just going to lift wheel easier etc.


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