anyone getting MSRP (or below)
 

Just picked up a Moss Green Cube SL w/Preferred package for the SO (some may laugh, but it's what she wanted, and it grew on me), and now that I'm spending more time in stop and go traffic (yeah Baltimore beltway :rolleyes: ), I have been looking at something a little more luxurious and easier on the clutch knee than my S2000.

Test drove an automatic 370Z base w/sport package last night and I was impressed with the family jewels it appears to have. I paid invoice for the cube (which seems to be a difficult thing to do for the green... tough bastards to find with the preferred package), but I was wondering if it's reasonable to assume I could do the same with the Z. I know the '20s will be out in another 1.5 months, but I would prefer getting something sooner.

For an auto 370Z w/sport, splash guards, and trunk/floor mats, invoice is $32,180 (not including tax/tag/title or destination, which adds another $2700). Anyone had any luck getting invoice or lower? If it's a fairly common thing for the savvy buyer, I'll go in more prepared to battle for the low price. If not, I may just have to eat some extra dough on the deal.

Thanks!

Two threads you should read through and will help you:

How I have scored invoice pricing with 3.99% APR on my 370Z?

2009 Nissan 370z invoice Price

It can be done, I paid invoice for my Base 370z with manual, sport package and splash guards. I picked up the floor mats aftermarket and will do the same with the kick plates.

most ppl are getting invoice or better...seems about right for those specs...i'm assuming you meant '10's ;)

xiven, <chuckle> Yeah, kinda fat-fingered the keyboard there.


theDreamer, I read through the first half of the first thread you linked to. I'm a relatively savvy buyer. For the Cube, we took several test drives and gave several local dealerships the opportunity to earn our business. None had what we wanted on the lot, which meant they would need to get someone to drive it to them, losing the dealer holdback profit. It costs them roughly $200 to pay someone to go get a car, and as a business I honestly feel they deserve to make a profit. My best offer was $400 over invoice (plus their processing fees, usually $100-$150), which I felt gave them a few hundred dollars for very little work. All said 'no'.

So, I did some searching and found what I wanted 140 miles from here. I paid invoice for that one, so the dealership made holdback plus processing, and the local guys made zero. They lost out on any profit because they got greedy. The Cube don't stay on the lot very long (at least what we wanted), so I felt quite happy with invoice. I didn't know how long the Z's stayed on the lot, but one of the local guys said they don't sell many of them and they tend to sit. they have a Platinum that fits my description, but I'm considering four colors... platinum, red, black, and white. I really like the look of the yellow, but I've never been able to justify in my mind paying extra for a color.

I'll pay invoice for all packages and extras, not MSRP. The Touring model doesn't appear to offer me anything special enough to warrant the extra price tag (though why can't they put a CD player that handles MP3s in a $30k+ vehicle?! Even the Cube handles MP3s!).

I agree on the CD MP3, on the Yellow color, it is a one time color for this year and it will be gone.
Most are getting invoice on the Z, they have probably started having many sit now since the high volume of sales was around March. Many orders were coming in and enough time had past that people could see the car in person, drive it, and a few owners were giving reviews.

Touring v. Base is a tough call, I went base as I felt the extras were not worth it, only two things I wanted were leather and the nav (which costs extra).

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...Pics/photo.jpg

whole row of them, just about every color...just sitting

this is one of them that I like ... who knows... maybe I'll take it home one day :driving:

Well, I've found the package I want in every color I desire within 30 miles of me, so no immediate need to drive 140 miles again like with the Cube. If I get it for invoice, it should be right around $35k out the door.

The rant from that GT-R dude in the other thread was hilarious... a real tool who makes wild assumptions to further his own agenda. I'm supposed to consider the time waiting for an email to arrive as wasted? Moron...

I paid < 33k OTD w/ everything for my Base + Sport Black/Black 6mt

I assume there were no other options added in? At 5% tax (6% here in MD), what you listed (and only what you listed), comes to a few dollars short of $33k at invoice (not including tag/title). Assuming the dealership only has a 2% holdback (some get more if they're good sellers and are rated high by customers), that's around $615 to play with... and most dealers won't want to dig too far into that cash cow (nor should they be required to, IMO).

If you buy it by the end of the day tomorrow (last day of the month), then you should have no problem getting invoice. Even if you're not a savvy buyer, you could always go to Carmax in Whitemarsh, they sell new Nissans. Their no haggle price on the Z is right around invoice.

I dont think anybody is paying MSRP for a 370z.

also, dont compare your cube experience with your 370z, Reason being - the Cube is a more practical and friendlier priced car. a lot of cubes are being sold and they can get more money out of them due to higher demand than the 370z.

The 370z is priced much higher and its a 2 door sports car that isnt very practical - in other words its a "toy". A lot of people can not afford toy's right at this time so they have to get the price down to be able to get it off their hands.

you can expect to pay invoice or better on a 370z, just be up for studying - and then work your way to the price you want.

370Z Purchased
 

Paid invoice with extended warranty.

Money talks now has been my recent experience.

Cj,

So you're suggesting I could probably get better than invoice if I find a hungry dealer and stand my ground? Good to know, but I would start to feel a bit guilty about dipping too low into his profit margin... I'm a business owner myself, and I'm fine with giving the dealers a reasonable amount of profit.

I knew the cube was/is pretty popular, and combined with the rarity of the green color, I figured if I could get it for invoice I was doing pretty well. That's why I was willing to offer up to $400 over invoice (even if half of that was eaten by the transportation), because I knew it wan't easy to find. I got lucky, or shall I say she got lucky.

I would still like to take another test drive to determine if my two main complaints (huge blind spot, possibly due to the sticker, and poor transmission shifting in manual mode, possibly due to inexperience with the specific vehicle) are still there. The blind spot is a pretty big deal, and I would hate to get the car and end up in an accident because I couldn't see to change lanes. If I can shake those two issues (and can work a good deal), I'll probably pick one up.

The on to the customization ;) I don't think I'll spend as much on the Z as I spent on the S, however... full bodykits molded into the frame, custom candy paintjobs, powder coated frames, etc. I'm not sure I want to add up what I've put into the S to date, but I know I've enjoyed it :) Maybe now would be a good time to make it a turbo and keep the Z relatively stock.

Invoice should be very easy.

Yes you can. If you feel guilty, go ahead and pay a little over invoice. I personally see it this way - if you offered to pay MSRP, the dealer wont feel one bit guilty about ripping you off, and yet you feel guilty about them making minimal profit?

some people do, some people dont, Im just one of those guys who see's it "an eye for an eye", sort of. oh and BTW, i paid about 37500 for my 370z, invoice was 37300 or so. I actually thought I was paying 500 over but turns out the dealer ordered the Z with every option available (I told them no other options), and my price didnt change.

I am a firm believer that businesses need to make a profit and have once been in the business of selling cars myself, getting paid based on a percentage of profit margin per vehicle. However, even from a business perspective, keep in mind, that the worst they can do is say no and send you shopping elsewhere. If they are willing to sell at invoice or below (trust me, they will), they obviously found the deal worthwhile for them and you shouldn't feel guilty. Both parties have the ability to walk from the deal at any point, at any price, for any reason. There's no shame in wanting to pay the lowest possible price and they will try likewise work you for the MSRP or even higher.

A car salesperson's greatest fear is that you will walk away from their lot without buying something. The reason is, there are so many dealers out there with essentially the same economic structure (costs, overhead, incentives, same models available) within a good 20 mile radius of each other. If you walk from one, and go to another, you will almost always get the deal. Therefore, by threatening to leave, they know right away they lost the deal and will try to do whatever they can to make it happen.

If you don't like shopping at 10 different lots and pitting them against each other, just go to one- tell them your price (I rec $500 - $1000) below invoice for the 370Z and stick to it. Tell them its your first place window shopping because you're bored and that if they want sell it to you right now without any further shopping, they have to give you that price. However, for anything more than your price, you will have to shop the deal and will get back to them next week. If they say its ridiculous, its not because many have bought the Z for that price- the market clearing prices for the 09's are already set in stone and they know it. There's nothing wrong or un-business like about the approach. Being the first time shopping for the Z, you either want that price now or, will shop more if they tell you its not doable just to be a smart consumer.

^I speak from 1st hand experience as a former car salesman on the line, and you make it sound way too easy. Easier said than done. I won't expound on this, because posts like yours plant too many 1/2-truthed and presumptuous seeds in people's heads and this misleads them when buying new cars.

The way you describe it nowhere as close as what really goes on.

Ed- with all due respect, it is as close as what really goes on. Perhaps your dealer was managed very well to drive solid profit margins. I'm glad the business worked out well on your end.

The way I described is exactly how I bought my 370Z. I have also helped numerous friends and relatives the exact same way to negotiate for their cars getting very similar deals and on occasion, even better deals. The reason some don't get those deals is because they either give in to fast when the salesman / closer counteroffers with a "meet me in the middle deal" or, the customer wants a color or option that only that one dealer has and they make it known that they must have it that way. Or, its possible that the dealer you work at is doing so well that they don't have to sell at invoice. Look at the pricing threads and you'll see how many people have paid invoice or even below.

Car negotiation tactics aside, my primary point was to highlight that he (the previous poster) shouldn't feel guilty paying invoice. Because when the dealer accepts that type of offer, they are doing exactly that i.e, accepting that the offer is something that they can live with. It might not be what they were hoping for but its not un-business friendly by any means.

Finally, its a business owner or executive's responsibility to manage their company profitably. Corporate pushes dealers to stock large volumes of inventory. Dealers try to sell as much as possible. If market forces mean that they get low margins, thats the way it is. Generally speaking, when making a product of any kind, a manufacturer has strict cost targets and based on the nature of the product they hope to drive enough customer value or demand to sell for a price much higher. If they can, they should. If they cant do it, they either:

- produced / stocked too much inventory or too many dealerships - think about why GM and Chrysler forced many dealers to close. Very sad but fair if you believe in a competitive market.
- did not create enough value in the product for the customer to pay that high price (DOUBTFUL that this is the case with the 370Z)
- too low of demand
- were not aggressive enough with the cost targets resulting in low profitability even at "high selling prices." All manufacturers focus on this- think about why they didn't give us oil coolers for instance. They were thinking the increase in cost of car by installing the cooler would not justify a higher selling price or more units sold for the average consumer. Only a few would pay more for this. How many of us have installed aftermarket coolers even given how much we all complain about oil temps? Very few. They were right from a business perspective for not including it.

The market dictates the price and they have to live with that or better find a way to manage the business. GM, Chrysler and even Toyota is dealing with that right now. The competitive market is also the reason why people living in places like New York, SF Bay Area or LA have to pay $1M + for an average looking house when people in the Midwest can get a gated estate for that price. I don't mean to come off strong, but this is just the way business works. For those dealers that can find a way to charge MSRP with no grief from the customer, more power to them.

I simply can't see this working, at least not with those figures. 2% holdback on a base/sport model is $640 (give or take). Unless that car has been sitting on their lot for 6 months and they believe they have no hope of getting rid of it any time soon (the interest is losing them money at this point), I can't see them saying "Sure, we'll let the car go for what we paid for it (or even less) and eat what we've paid in interest so far. We'll call it a learning experience" this isn't last year's Corolla that they need to dump because the new models have been on the lot for 3 months, this is a higher-end vehicle that is still in its current year (though fast approaching the end of it).

I certainly agree with the concept of what you are preaching, and if I was trying to buy that Corolla and knew what kind of leverage I had, I'd do it, but I don't think many would find themselves in a position to have that kind of leverage on a Z for at least another few months. I can imagine a dealer agreeing to $100-$200 below invoice if he is having a bad couple of months, but not below his holdback.

EDIT: I should add... I didn't mean to make anyone believe I had a problem with paying invoice... that's my target number, and I'm happy if I hit it. I'd only expect less than invoice in the case of the Corolla I mentioned. Would I take a deal at less than invoice if the dealer didn't bat an eye when it was offered? Sure, but I'm not going to brow beat the guy trying to get less than that.

go for invoice then, you'll get it, and do remember - the 2010's are coming out in a couple months, they have inventory they need to get rid of in the next few months ;)

Invoice price is a great deal as well. However, what I suggested is not only possible but has been done. I got 600 below invoice which is right at their breakeven after holdback. One person here got 1000 below indicating a loss for the dealer. There are quite a few buyers within the 500 - 1000 below invoice range which is why I thought it would be helpful for you to know.

Do whatever makes you feel comfortable. All this talk of "hot car" = higher price isn't always true either. When I worked as a salesman at Dodge during college, we had two Vipers. We sold one Viper at $10K below invoice with no dealer incentives other than the std holdback simply because it sat too long. The owner would yell at us each Saturday asking us why it wasn't sold. For the second one, another person came by thinking that because it was rare that MSRP was a great deal and paid just that (we even had a $20K markup sticker on top of the MSRP). Good thing he's probably rich enough as a Viper buyer to not have been impacted by the lost savings he could have had.

My dad bought an S-Class Mercedes at a time when the dot com boom happened and people in the Silicon Valley (where I'm from) were making tons of money left and right from IPOs. There were Mercedes all over the road. Even then, they sold it to him for $4K below invoice. The car business (dealer side) just has very low margins. Its their structure. They make up for it and still profit by:

- Volume Bonuses offered to the owner of the dealer: For ex, if a dealer sells X number of new cars in a month, the owner of the dealership will get a huge check from corporate. This is different BTW than customer incentives that they pass on to you. This makes up for the $400 he lost selling you the Z for $1000 below invoice (after roughly 600 holdback) worthwhile if he is close to hitting that target and just needs to sell a few more units. This is why people buy cars for far below invoice all the time.

- Selling extended warranties, service packages, paint sealant, etc.

- Financing

- Used car sales where they buy from auctions for dirt cheap. Also, with used cars, the customer never really knows what the dealer paid. Its not like new cars where you can look it up online.

- Trade ins.

- This next one is not a incentive but, a dealership owner could actually lose its ability to sell that brand if they consistently miss volume targets. This almost happened to my friends dealer where he worked as a salesman. They sold few new cars and mostly relied on used cars for revenue. Finally Chrysler (it was a Jeep dealer) told their owner that they would cut his dealer if he didnt start pushing volume. This happened by the way a couple years before the current auto crisis.

Well, David, I went into a dealership last night with a renewed vigor, due in part to your post of people getting deals for less than invoice. I saw exactly what I wanted, in chicane yellow... the color is my favorite, but I was simply not willing to pay $500 for a color choice. In a nutshell, I told the sales manager I was willing to pay $300 of that $500 (essentially $200 below invoice), but the full $500 was out of the question as I would be happy with several other colors (none of which they had on the lot in the package I want).

It was obvious they would have accepted invoice, but they started to piss me off when they wanted to play hocus pocus with the numbers, continually asking me how much over invoice I wanted to pay (I couldn't have been more clear I was not going to pay a dime over invoice). Let's take a look at the kind of price crap they tried to pull with me, shall we? (Note: I knew exactly how much this vehicle and every option cost them for invoice, not assuming any extra dealer-specific bonuses for good customer feedback to Nissan corporate and such, which only helps them)

1) Showing me invoice price plus destination, calling that invoice, and trying to convince me that price was what I was calling invoice in my original calculations, making it appear as if I undercalculated the vehicle's value by $700+.
2) Taking my "out the door price" offer and working backwards to what they claimed I was actually offering them (any astute person knows that 6% tax on price 'X' is not the same as 6% of price 'X'+tax, a mathematical sleight of hand which makes it look like I'm offering about $120 less than what I really am). I'm an engineer that calculates pi to 50 places in my head without breaking a sweat, so don't pull that BS on me.
3) Pointing to my offer price and showing how much lower than MSRP it is. Well, duh!
4) Throwing out multiple figures while I'm trying to calculate in my head what each option is worth, even after asking for a minute to do just that in peace and quiet. You may make me lose count, but that just means I'm going to start from the beginning again, and now you've succeeded in pissing me off.
5) Trying to tell me the dealership would be losing money on the deal, especially right after I finished telling them I knew exactly how much profit they were making in holdback and "processing" fees (about $550).
6) Telling me how "hot" this car is and how selling it at that price would be crazy for such a great-selling car, leading me to shoot back with:
a) 2010s will be on your lot in a month and a half
b) This car has been on your lot for a while now (costing you, I bet, about $25/wk in lost profit)
c) upcoming models are 40th anniversary, meaning new colors (like black cherry) and custom badging
7) Other minor crap not worth mentioning, but still annoying, nonetheless.

In the end we couldn't make a deal, so I shook his hand, thanked him and the sales guy for their time, and hopped back in our new Cube and drove home. The search will continue today. Current deals end August 3rd, none of which include the 370Z, so hopefully we'll see some incentives show up after the new deal cycle kicks in.

I cringe at similar threads and posts like yours. They're unfounded and lack pragmatic steps. You never mentioned whether you ACTUALLY worked at a new car dealership. However, I did, and was friends with F&I and deskmen (salesmanagers). You digress too much with generalizations from simplistic "supply & demand" concepts from what econ classes teach--sorry bro, it's too vague and w/ all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not here to flame.

So what's this contradiction w/ American cars being "oversupplied" thus leading to their heavy discounts i.e. "please buy me or else the big 3 will sink further," and your "doubtful this is the case w/ the 370"? This means 370's can't be whored out domestics can.

Writing superfluous posts like yours, especially, with a "scholarly" tone doesn't mean you're an expert at buying new cars. Those "for example, real estate in these areas" aren't analogous to the dynamics of car buying. Cars depreciate, real estate you aforementioned have an appreciative trend overall.

Sorry, your "expertise" isn't what really goes on, not even close. Too many generalizations and no specificity.

Ed- I did say that I worked at a new car dealer in another post (Dodge). Also the best proof of what I'm saying is to look at the pricing threads. Why are so many people getting the prices I'm suggesting if its all false? I personally was at 600 below invoice for mine after only 30 - 45 min.

If you think I'm so ignorant which you came off as immediately after my FIRST post, then what specifically about it is wrong? I've also found other pricing posts you come off the same way. "I used to be a salesman, all false. Dealer wont sell below X. End of story" I do respect your input, but it needs to carry specificity as well.

I also don't mean to flame either but responded because you come off attacking rather than helping. Are you here to help him get a good price or just to defend your profession? No need to do that unless he comes to YOUR store. Let the Nissan dealer, whichever one he's shopping at defend their prices if you are helping him. If $500 - 1000 below invoice is too ridiculous of an offer for the 370Z, what price do you suggest he or others pay? What price did you pay personally using your experience as a salesman? Again, its the dealers job to manage profitably. No need to worry about his overhead, the sales guys commission etc. When salespeople sell cars do they worry about how many kids you have, your college fund, or your mortgage payment? That's why its the right thing to do to focus on the what others getting good deals are paying and try to do the same. Its the same reason why dealers try to figure out what their competitors are trying to sell the car for. If the offer is too low for the seller, they simply say no. If its too high for the customer, they do the same. What's the big deal? The customer should just focus on getting the best deal he can.

If they tell him NO, he can:

1) go somewhere else
2) just simply pay more if he doesn't like the hassle (some don't mind) and enjoy his new 370Z for what it is.
3) Play the back and forth game a little longer to get his price. He MAY succeed. He MAY fail.

ANYTHING TO LOSE HERE?? Nothings guaranteed of course, but the trends are again 500 - 1000 below. If someone others did it, why shouldn't he try too?

You are not any more specific either other than that you think its not possible and that you used to be a salesman. A lot of people do it.

It may not be any one of those factors but combined puts pressure on them. When I said "doubtful with the 370Z" relating to product value, there is no contradiction with the american cars. It means I didnt think it was that one factor affecting the Z, may have been others like the other points I made that you didnt quote.

YOUR dealer may have done very well but many are willing to sell below invoice (some significantly). The steps are specific and pragmatic. I wasnt trying to teach a course. I was suggesting to him the prices that people are paying are lower than he might intuitively think. Also see my other post (the one you didn't quote) where there were more specific reasons why a specific dealer would sell below.

The only thing simplistic is the car sales process. - Sales guy sits you down with the four square and quotes the MSRP presenting why that is what the car is worth. Also he asks for trade in, down payment if financing etc. Customer offers 1000 below invoice with no trade. He says NO WAY. You stick to your point. He brings in Manager and goes back and forth a little bit. Customer gets up tries to leave. They end up selling for 500 - 1000 below invoice after arguing for a while, IF THEY WANT TO SELL for that. To be a broken record, all i was pointing out is that many Nissan dealers are as evidenced by my own purchase experience and others here combined with how their business works. If I'm so ignorant, let me ask you what your F&I manager knows. He sells paint sealant signs the contract? I'm sure he sees a lot of prices but there are some below invoice.

Also, the analogy with real estate I made has nothing to do with appreciation/depreciation trends. I was stating that the market sets the prices. The point was that if the market price is high, then you pay a lot if its low, then you pay lower. Again, looking at the pricing threads, many people esp in the past 2 - 3 mos. have been at invoice or up to a $1000 below. Finally whats wrong with econ concepts, even if general, they drive what happens with prices and companies do use it along with their overall strategy to set product prices. In early 07 there was a debate on either CNN or NBC between the Century 21 (real estate brokerage) CEO and a Princeton Econ professor regarding how widespread the housing crisis was. The Century 21 CEO insisted it was related only to very small "pockets" or markets within the US whereas the Econ professor was arguing that it was widespread throughout looking at econ indicators and also he doesn't have the bias of being involved in the business. Look at what happened a year after that conversation.

sounds like the dealer tried to get you, maybe called your bluff. You should wait a couple days then go back to the same guy, he will now know your willing to walk away again and might just "want to get it over with".

Also wanted to mention, there is a factory charge called destination charge which the dealer must pay. it is not really negotiable - because thats the price it cost to ship it from japan.

Dont take their BS about how 370z's are selling like hotcakes, thats total BS, my dealer has only sold 1 370z in the last 2 months and they have 8 370z's

I gotta say it sounded like you did a good job negotiating. Dont give up yet!

I intend to wait until after the 3rd (Monday) has passed... the current incentives (unfortunately on just about every car but the 370Z) are good until then, so hopefully starting with the 4th a whole new batch of incentives will be in place. It's their last chance to get older cars off of the lot before the new ones start rolling on.
If you notice in the first numbered item I mention the destination charge. I know it exists, that it's non-negotiable, and its exact amount. I'm sure to include it in my calculations.
I made a reasonable attempt given my level of patience and energy level that day. I'll keep this particular car in mind if I don't find another one I like, but I'm not holding it out as the only one left.



As far as negotiations went, this was the breakdown:
1) With available options and destination, invoice on vehicle was $33,179
2) Add tax, we're up to $35,170
3) I initially offered $34,900 out the door, which started the lesson in mathematics
4) I came up to $200 below invoice, adding another $70, mainly to keep the math simple and prevent any more mind games (it's easier to say "I'll pay $200 below invoice" than "My final offer is $xx, xxxx")
5) No deal.

I paid $36192.00 total including TTL for my Black 370Z, 6Spd MT, Touring, w/Sport Package, plus illuminated kickplates, front mats, cargo mat and cover. The only thing I didn't get was the nav system as I didn't want it. I purchased from Herb Gordon Nissan in Silver Spring, MD. Good Luck!

I wouldn't expect any incentives on the Z, and I wouldn't expect that many left overs either. From all reports the 2010's aren't coming out until November, not September like many other new car models. The production run of the 09 coupe is done. The Z may not be as hot as say the Camaro, but it is still a hot car, and the choices are getting a bit slim. Invoice is a good deal. Sure, you may be able to get it for 200 below, but you will probably go through a lot of time and aggravation to do so.

Is that the final OTD price? Was the frieght amount of $720 included?

Bro, chill with the superfluous posts. This ain't the O.J. trial reopened. Sorry, I won't read all your blabber. I see at the bottom "CNN, NBC Princeton econ prof...blah blah blah"-->loquacious fluff and no substance

I didn't mean to strike a nerve with you. But I did read the snippet where you mentioned reading all my other posts in how I presented myself as a "know-it-all" with my hackneyed "I'm a former car sales..."

I didn't know you were that vindicative and always had to be right? OK davidyan, you're right.

I was on the line, called my ups, did my follow ups, got my be-backs, closed the deals, sent the vehicle to the wash rack etc. I slapped the RS on the lower right windshield, blah blah blah. I know how to structure the 4-square too my friend. The one with MSRP on the upper left corner, down payment, month payment an trade-in. I did the 5-liner credit app too bro. Then I remember the deskman saying, 'switch them to a used car, they're roaches.'

You remind of one of my coworker at a dealer. Loquacious, talked my ears off if he felt I snubbed him or didn't take his talk seriously, etc. Grow thick skin, you need it on the line.

:wtf2:

I do not believe this.
So your telling me u got almost fully loaded 370z without nav for around 34,000?!
U Definetly paid around 38,000+ for your car after taxes and titles.

Leave the OTD stuff out of your negotiations unless thay have a crazy doc fee. Taxes and tags are a given. You're not negotiating them, but the car. If you know the price (on the car) you're willing to pay, there is no negotiations. You just let them play their games and wait them out. I bought mine with a VPP number which is essentially $100 under invoice so we didn't have to negotiate the car. The negotiation was for the trade. I got them up $3000 just sitting there and holding on the number I wanted. We did the deal eventually.

The "paperwork" fee is $100, and I specifically stated my OTD cost of $200 under invoice did not include it. I didn't expect a yellow when I got there, nor did I expect the car not to have floor/trunk mats. Because of this, I had to do some head calcs of the new tax, minus mats, plus yellow, etc. the salesman asked me what I wanted to offer, so I quickly threw out $34,900 without finishing my head calcs, knowing it would be in the ballpark. He stepped out, the sales manager stepped in, and the amusement began. As I was finishing the head cals, I realized I was approaching $300 under invoice with that initial offer, so instead of throwing out an adjusted $35,000 even, I simply said $200 under invoice is my price. There was no "negotiation" on my part, I just had to get my asking price closer after making a mistake.