some turn out freaks, some turn out normal, and some turn out lemons :eek:

:iagree:

:stirthepot:

In reality, small differences due to better or worse ring sealing (burn any oil?) might mean slightly more compression and a few more whp, but nothing earth shattering.

Given the tighter tolerances in modern engine builds, my theory is that so-called "factory freaks" (at least in modern engines) are all due to apples to oranges dyno comparions (e.g., dynapack vs dynojet) or someone using a wildly optimisitic correction factor or looking at uncorrected values in the middle of winter.

In other words it's horsesh!t.

On older motors you probably did have more variablity betwen carbeurators working properly and engines having good compression. Modern engines are far less variable in build or tune.

I don't.

Used to, some of the domestic car companies would slip a hotter cam into the car or something (Say they ran out of cams for one trim-level, they would reach into the performance bin and slap that in there), but that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore.

What is there to "make a car a freak"?

All of the parts are made to a certain +- spec, and they go in the car the same way. If your car is making more or less power than others, it has something that is not right in it, and that's no bueno.

Proof to support OP's theory:
http://www.herbiemania.com/marchmontpenny2.jpg
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:icon18:

being a former Nissan mechanic I do believe in the Wednesday car. Shitty cars come from the factory because the workers are hung over on Monday, still don't want to be there Tuesday, Wednesday is good. Then Thursday and Friday they are looking forward to the weekend. It seemed like Maximas were the worst. Most ran like you would expect, a few were complete dogs, and every once in while you would get one that would haul. I stomped one and slipped the tires (not a burn out but more than a chirp) from 40mph. I think alot of it has to do with the self learning ECU's. It learns your usual driving patterns and adjusts fuel and timing to that. The people the baby their cars all the time tended to have cars taht were a little slower. The people that drive more aggressively (not thrashed) had a little more performance. I haven't worked at a dealer since the end of 05. Things may have changed a lot but i doubt it.

Yes factory freaks are common in all cars. VQs tend to vary on power based on mileage and other factors. I've seen two stock 350Zs of the same year dyno 20whp apart on the same dyno back to back.

Then one of them had something seriously wrong with it.

The "freak" was the weaker one.

How do you explain a F20C dynoing 232whp from the factory, while 4 other s2000's on the same dyno, same day dyno'd in the 195whp range.


Anyone doubting the existence of factory freaks can simply take a look at the Nismo section. They're all factory freaks!:inoutroflpuke:

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1. Don't know, it's all hearsay. You tell me how that would happen? My guess is there were other things going on with that motor or the tune that were not explained. Maybe that one revved to 10,000 RPM's.

You're saying these were all unmodifed, bone stock engines with a stock ECU tune? I call BS on that. There is no way a four banger made nearly 40 more horses due to a lucky engine build or ECU transient modifiers such as fuel trims and ignition advance.

2. The Nismos have a different tune, my guess being especially in the VVEL.

Seriously, what would be the logical possible cause of the alleged factory freakishness?

The only major variable is going to be how well the engines break in, which could result in small differences due to compression. For the rest, the ECU is going to keep the tune fairly stable so long as nothing else is changed.

The biggest variable will be the weather.

I was there for the dyno runs, saw it myself. All four cars were stock AP1's, with between 15-30k on the clock. I had never believed that FF's had existed (aside from examples of hot cam in grandma's buick), but having seen it in person makes me wonder a little.

The early hand-built prototypes of engine usually make more power than the production version. I think the early build F20C's laid around 285 bhp, but it was toned down for the production model, since there was some allocated variance in the spec. Maybe his engine happened to have gotten tolerances just right, maybe the ECU adjusted a little different...I don't know. His car laid down notably more power, and was faster on the drag strip than I'd ever seen from a stock S2K.

If there was a completely different build and ECU -- maybe. But while I could see maybe 10+ horses from better compression and a little more spark advance or whatever on the same build and tune, 35-40 is hard to believe.

Imagine it had a whole extra compression point (unlikely) or a slightly better flowing head (probably not) -- that's just not going to equate to a 20% bump in power.

How much tighter can tolerance be before it's simply a different engine? For that huge a difference (nearly 20% more power!) were talking a totally different build and tune -- there's just no way.

That's like the difference between a 1ZZ and a 2ZZ engine, and although they have the same displacement and bolt up interchangeably,
the 2ZZ has a totally different short block, head, cam and cam mechanism, and ECU to make that power -- they are two completely different engines!

I'm not trying to be a ****, but there's just no way to explain that huge a difference due to tighter tolerances and an aggressive self-corrected ECU without completely different mechancial parts and a totally, radically, different tune. Something else was going on there and that guy wasn't telling the whole tale. but there's no way those were all identical engines and ECUs. Impossible.

If it was a special prototype or whatever, then it had different parts and a different ECU and is not a factory freak (or at least what I think the term implies) -- just a different set up.

To give you another example, sticking with the 2ZZ engine -- early models (introduced end of 1999) had the ECU tuned by Toyotoa to have the second cam profile activate about 200 RPM earlier than the 2000+ models, making it hit peak torque a bit earlier and making it easier to stay in the power band on gear changes -- that could be construed, I suppose as a "factory freak" in that few cars on the road had this feature and it was otherwise the same build and tune -- BUT, some key elements of the tune were clearly different and it wasn't a "freak" per se (implying a fluke or unintentional/unplanned difference), just a difference between the earlier and later factory tune.

And it wasn't no 40 whp difference. That's a huge difference, espeically on a small displacement motor. I just don't buy it.

EDIT: Wait -- these are NA motors right? The above commentary is for NA -- I'd be more willing to believe it for a boosted car, but even then we're talking a different turbine or big, big difference in the tune.

JORDO!!!........stranger things have happened....lol