...perfectly stated.

That's true. Good thing for my LSD Im just ordering.

I was about to poke the same thing at him, but noticed that he drive auto, lol.

It's exactly the same thing, your relying on the system to do the work for you. To become a better driver you have to fully understand what to do in those kind of situations without the help of the system. I learned how to drive a car before ABS came standerd on all cars, i drive some army vehicals now that still dont have ABS. Very rarely does my ABS come on in my truck. Why? because i learned how to brake earlier and easier in situations that would require ABS, ie Snow, Ice, Rain or other situations.

That being said, i never said you should have the systems turned off all the time, that was just the way i ran my car. What im saying is the people that claim all these accidents are caused by people turning VDC off, is total bs and probably dont know how to drive. Its not that hard to get out of situations with VDC off. Like i said, if you need to rely on VDC system while driving a sports car, maybe you should rethink what kind of car you should be driving, if any.

As for manual vs. auto transmission, to his, his own. My truck is auto, its the one thing i hate about my truck. But dodge made regular cabs manual and quad cabs auto, i needed the room more then i needed the type of transmission. If i had the money, i would swap transmissions and everything so i could have manual.

Good point. My 2010 Prius actually did steer for me. It read the lines in the road and could steer the car on highways. It also had radar cruise control that kept me a selected distance from the car in front of me. With those features on, I sure wasn't really driving (not that you can ever really drive a Prius). Oh, it also parked itself without my help.

That's why I sold it. I like to drive. If I want to be a passenger I can take a cab or bus. On the other hand, ABS and VDC don't really take over the driving experience. They just help in some situations. Turning VDC off doesn't make you a better driver. It just forces you to focus completely on driving since the VDC isn't there to make little corrections if your mind wanders. On the track, you have to be 100% focused on driving. On my way to work, thoughts of my job and the radio sometimes divide my attention. That doesn't make me a bad driver. The only time I am aware the VDC cut in was when I tested it by making a hard turn way too fast. It did its job without being annoying.

Tomatoes, Potatoes, it all comes down to what you like.

My only question is that if traction control is such a bad thing, then why would pretty much any racing team use it if they were allowed to. Granted most street systems can be a bit intrusive but even the best of the best race car drivers can do better laps with traction control. Now i doubt we will see a traction control system that well sorted on a car that most people can afford for a while. But saying that having it makes you worse for it is wrong, it only can work with the traction available and if you exceed it the vdc will help regain control, but it still requires you to not be stupid.

from my understanding, most race teams turn it off. Cant remember what mag it was in but im sure someone has it. The compaired a supercharged 350Z vs. a TT 370z. The company with the 370z had great results but not the best due to the VDC system, even with turning it off it still stays on by 25% or so. They tried everything to disable it, finally they just pulled the harness out and was able to run the car 100% and got better results.

I did the same thing at the track and i got alot better results as well, i had full control of my car and never had to worrie about pushing the car to hard and the VDC screwing everything up.

VDC is not the same as traction control...

I remember when Indy car teams had traction control when it was illegal for them to have. The teams were buring the codes so deep into the ECU that they went ahead and let every team use it.

VDC = LESS 370Z's in the grave-yard!

see this is what im talking about, people like this.

:iagree:

My Nismo is my Daily Driver and I drive it everyday with the VDC off and I have never had a close call or almost wrecked the car. People need to learn to drive and not be driven by computers.

Some people just don't try to understand. People these days are so set in there ways regardless if you make a valid point.

When I first came to this forum the standard was VDC Off = Death. I was reluctant to even try it off, but kept thinking, "It's only a car". Sure enough VDC off + experienced driver = destination.

I'd be curious* how many people learned to ride a bike with training wheels and who learned without. My dad wouldn't let me have them, and taught me without them, very quickly. Perhaps the training wheels and VDC analogy, is a poor one because at some point people learn to ride, and get rid of their training wheels. With VDC, folks never learn.


* a poll.

People like who???! Gfys... I'm pushing allot more power than most people on this forum, because I prefer it on when driving who cares! I don't go street racing every chance I get. And when I chose to rip the throttle I turn VDC off! Just cause I don't drive everywhere with VDC off does not make me a bad driver,, grow up buddy!

Edit: I also have a 240sx, which has much less rear end control than the Z, and last time I checked it does not have VDC. I have heard way too many stories of people driving with it off and going into unexpected variables, and wrecking the car, that's why I made that statement.

Say 2,000 z drivers drive for 3 years with VDC off and 2,000 Z drivers driving for 3 years with VDC on. Which would be a more logical hypothesis of which group is going to have fewer wrecks!? You can call me a bad driver all day long, but when I am just driving to work and what not VDC stays on, not cause I am a bad driver, but because I am a smart driver.

Personally i dont care how much power you have, so i dont even know why that point was brought up. Secondly, no one said anything about street racing, once again, dont know why that was brought up. Thirdly, no one said you were a bad driver, once again, dont know why you brought that up.

Lastly, you claim VDC = less 370z in the grave. Do you have proof to back that up? Can you honeslty sit there and say the cause of 370z being in the grave was caused by VDC or played a factor in it? My truck doesnt have VDC or traction control, i havent heard of or seen any posts on multiple forums of accidents being caused by not having those futures. And thats the point im making. Basically you are saying if a 370z was stopped at a red light with his VDC off, someone slammed into the back of him, the accident was caused because the VDC was off.

your little example doesnt make sence at all. If the group had there vdcoff got into, lets say 500 accidents and the other group only 200 accidents. What if the 300 more accidents were all un-avoidable and VDC had no play in the matter? This is all what ifs, i want to see 100% solid proof that turning your VDC cause more accidents.

Studies <TABLE border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=725><TBODY><TR><TD width=262>ESC was found to have potential to prevent 19.3% of crashes involving large trucks included in the LTCCS database.</TD><TD width=192>The estimates are based on real-world crash data collected in Large Truck Crash Causation Study (LTCCS) which was conducted from 2001 to 2003. The LTCCS study conducted on-scene investigations for real-world crashes and produced a database of 1070 accidents. This data was used to make case by case estimations of the applicability of crash avoidance countermeasures for each crash based on expert knowledge on the analysed systems and their effectiveness in various crash scenarios.</TD><TD width=111>Kingsley, K. J.</TD><TD width=32>2009</TD><TD width=164>Evaluating crash avoidance countermeasures using data from FMCS's/NHTSA's large truck accident causation study. Proceedings of the 21st International Technical Conference on the Enhanced Safety of Vehicles Conference (ESV) - International Congress Center Stuttgart, Germany, June 15–18, 2009.</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>ESC is estimated to prevent 9,587 casualties in 2021 with full fleet penetration which corresponds to annual cost savings of £764 million.</TD><TD width=192>Calculation of the reduction of fatalities was based on an earlier studies carried out in UK using case control method and induced exposure, statistics on vehicles equipped with ESC and models used to predict the increase in the share of vehicles equipped with ESC.</TD><TD width=111>Weekes, A., Avery, M., Frampton, R. and Thomas, P.</TD><TD width=32>2009</TD><TD width=164>ESC standard fitment and failure to protect young drivers. Proceedings of the 21st International Technical Conference on the Enhanced Safety of Vehicles Conference (ESV) - International Congress Center Stuttgart, Germany, June 15–18, 2009.</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>ESC drivers were much more likely than drivers of other vehicles to be aware of ESC (77% vs. 39%) and that their own vehicle was equipped with it (63% vs. 8%), but 23 percent had never heard of it. 90%of drivers who knew that their vehicle was equipped with ESC believed that ESC had made it safer to drive and reported being confident that ESC would work in an emergency. 23% of ESC owners who knew their vehicle had ESC reported noticing long-lasting changes in their driving behaviour. Hence, behavioural adaptation to ESC is likely in certain drivers; however, its proven effectiveness in reducing the likelihood of being involved in a serious crash probably outweighs any potential increases in unsafe driving. ESC-equipped vehicles should be marketed in a realistic, safe manner.</TD><TD width=192>Two separate telephone surveys on drivers' perceptions and awareness of ESC. The first surveyed 500 randomly selected owners/drivers of passenger vehicles and the second 1017 owners/drivers of 2006-2008 ESC-equipped passenger vehicles in Canada.</TD><TD width=111>Rudin-Brown, C.M.; Jenkins, R.W.; Whitehead, T. & Burns, P.C.</TD><TD width=32>2009</TD><TD width=164>Could ESC (Electronic Stability Control) Change the Way We Drive? Traffic Injury Prevention, 10:4, pp. 340 - 347.</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>About 90% of the car drivers with ESC know that the car is equipped with the system. More than 35% of those without ESC erroneously state that their car has the system. Almost all drivers (over 95%) are aware that they have antilock brakes. For both ABS and ESC, the drivers state that they have noticed that the systems were mainly activated on snowy/icy roads. They also think that the system is most beneficial under such conditions. In these risk situations, the drivers consistently state that they are more likely to take a risk when they think they have the support system, than when they do not have it. Car drivers which have ESC have a greater tendency to increase their risk taking than the car drivers without ESC. Men and the youngest drivers are most risk-prone. The study concludes that drivers are more risk-prone when they think they have a certain technical support system than when they think they do not have the system. The increased safety offered by the system may be impaired due to that the driver compensates by increasing his or her risk.</TD><TD width=192>Questionnaire based on the "Theory of planned behaviour" has been used. The drivers' intentions to behave in a certain way in three critical driving situations were studied as a post survey sent to 1,000 car drivers with ESC and to 1,000 drivers of similar cars without ESC. The response rate was 48% (53% for those with ESC). There were slight more men and older drivers than in the whole driver population.</TD><TD width=111>Vadeby, A.; Wiklund, M. & Forward, S.</TD><TD width=32>2009</TD><TD width=164>The expectations and views of car drivers concerning antilock brakes (ABS) and electronic stability control (ESC) systems. VTI rapport 647. 56 p. + app. 14 p. (Swedish with English summary)</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>Socio-economic benefits related to the indirect traffic effects of ESC - the reduction in congestion costs - have been estimated to lie between 135-157 million € in 2010 and 173-217 million € in 2010. ESC was estimated to reduce the number of injuries by 3.3-10.5% and fatalities by 9.8-24.5%, when 100% penetration in terms of vehicle kilometres was assumed.</TD><TD width=192>The estimates for the safety impacts are based on synthesis of earlier studies, the power model presented by Göran Nilsson and assumptions made by the authors.</TD><TD width=111>Wilmink, I., Janssen, W., Jonkers, E., Malone, K., van Noort, M., Klunder, G., Rämä, P., Sihvola, N., Kulmala, R., Schirokoff, A., Lind, G., Benz, T., Peters, H. and Schönebeck, S.</TD><TD width=32>2008</TD><TD width=164>Impact assessment of Intelligent Vehicle Safety Systems. eIMPACT Deliverable D4, Socio-economic Impact Assessment of Stand-alone and Co-operative Intelligent Vehicle Safety Systems (IVSS) in Europe (eIMPACT)</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>This study summarises evidence from empirical studies on the effects of electronic stability control (ESC) on accidents in a meta-analysis. The study concludes on a 49% reduction in single vehicle accidents, 13% reduction head-on collisions and 32% reduction of multi-vehicle fatal accidents due to ESC improving driving dynamics and reducing the probability of loss of control. However, a sensitivity analysis indicates results for single vehicle accidents likely to be affected by publication bias. The results for single vehicle accidents are in excess of what might be expected based on studies that have estimated the total amount of accidents that may be affected by ESC. Consequently, the proportions of accidents that can be avoided by ESC is assumed to be somewhat smaller than suggested by most empirical studies. Properties of the vehicles, time trends, and driver behaviour may have contributed to the large empirical effects.</TD><TD width=192>The study applied meta-analysis on a set of earlier accident statistics based studies.</TD><TD width=111>Erke, A.</TD><TD width=32>2008</TD><TD width=164>Effects of electronic stability control (ESC) on accidents: A review of empirical evidence. Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 40, Issue 1, January 2008, Pages 167-173. http://www.sciencedirect.com</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>The results showed that the effectiveness of ESC is 3% for crashes of all severity. The number of serious crashes was 19% smaller for cars with ESC compared to cars with no ESC. The number of fatalities was 15% less for cars with ESC compared to cars with no ESC.</TD><TD width=192>The analysis was carried out on the basis of a database of accidents reported to the police in UK during 2002-2005. The analysis used case-control method and involved 10,475 case vehicles and 41,656 control vehicles involved in accidents and group of manouvres in which ESC effect was considered possible and a group of control manouvres.</TD><TD width=111>Thomas, P.</TD><TD width=32>2007</TD><TD width=164>Real-world assessment of relative crash involvement rates of cars equipped with electronic stability control. Proceedings of the 20th International Technical Conference on the Enhanced Safety of Vehicles Conference (ESV) in Lyon, France, June 18-21, 2007.</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>A study undertaken by the University of Cologne concluded that 4 000 lives could be saved each year and 100 000 injuries could be avoided each year on European roads if all cars would be equipped with ESC. The analysis shows that for every Euro invested in ESC cost savings of 3.5-5.8 Euro arise to society.</TD><TD width=192>The results are based on socio-economic cost-benefit analysis. The impacts of ESC have been estimated on the basis of earlier studies. The impacts of ESC have been estimated on the basis of the share of single vehicle accidents of all accidents, the share of single vehicle accidents caused by a skidding vehicle and the estimated effectiveness of ESC in preventing those accidents.</TD><TD width=111>Baum, H., Grawenhoff, S. and Geißler, T.</TD><TD width=32>2007</TD><TD width=164>Cost-Benefit-Analysis of the Electronic Stability Program (ESP), Summary Report.</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>Overall the cars with ESC are involved in 7% fewer crashes although the effectiveness is substantially higher under conditions of adverse road friction i.e. 20% reduction on snowy and icy roads. ESC equipped cars are involved in 25% fewer fatal crashes and in 11 % fewer serious crashes.</TD><TD width=192>The study used the national accident statistics of Great Britain. The crash experience of 10475 cars was analysed and compared to a closely matching set of 41656 non-ESC cars using case-control methods.</TD><TD width=111>Frampton, F. & Thomas, P.</TD><TD width=32>2006</TD><TD width=164>Effectiveness of Electronic Stability Control Systems in Great Britain. Vehicle Safety Research Centre, Loughborough University</TD></TR><TR><TD width=262>ESC reduces the risk of fatal multiple-vehicle crashes by 32 percent amd the risk of all single-vehicle crashes by more than 40 percent — fatal ones by 56 percent.

While both cars and SUVs benefit from ESC, the reduction in the risk of single-vehicle crashes was significantly greater for SUVs — 49 percent versus 33 percent for cars. The reduction in fatal single-vehicle crashes wasn't significantly different for SUVs (59 percent) than for cars (53 percent). ESC reduces the risk of fatal single-vehicle rollovers of SUVs by 80 percent, 77 percent for cars. ESC was found to reduce the risk of all kinds of fatal crashes by 43 percent. Losses under collision coverage are about 15 percent lower for vehicles with ESC than for predecessor models without it. However, ESC doesn't have much effect on property damage liability claims or the frequency of injury claims. These findings track police-reported crashes, which show little effect of ESC on the risk of low-severity multiple-vehicle crashes.
</TD><TD width=192>Statistical analysis of road accidents and fatalities as well as traffic insurance claims.</TD><TD width=111>IIHS</TD><TD width=32>2006</TD><TD width=164>Update on Electronic Stability Control. Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, Status Report, Vol. 41, No. 5 and News Release, June 13, 2006. </TD></TR><TR><TD>ESC decreased the accident rate of single-car accidents by about 44% and that of head-on collisions by about 24%; the decrease was higher for more severe accidents; the decrease of single accidents and head-on collisions was higher on wet road conditions (58%) than on dry conditions (20%).</TD><TD>Comparison of data of 1,471 single-car accidents or head-on collisions not caused by drunk driving or drowsy driving involving ten models that were originally designed and shipped without ESC but subsequently became to be equipped with ESC were chosen from the accident data held by the Institute for Traffic Accident Research and Data Analysis (ITARDA) in Japan. Accident numbers were related to the number of such cars in use.</TD><TD>Ohono & Shimura</TD><TD>2005</TD><TD>Results from the survey on effectiveness of electronic stability control (ESC). Press release. National Agency for Automotive Safety & Victims' Aid (NASVA) 2005/02/18. </TD></TR><TR><TD>The overall effectiveness of ESC on all injury crashes except for rear end crashes was 16.7 +/- 9.3%, while for serious and fatal crashes the effectiveness was 21.6 +/- 12.8%. The effectiveness for serious and fatal crashes on wet roads was 56.2 +/- 23.5 %. On roads covered with ice and snow, the corresponding effectiveness was 49.2 +/- 30.2 %.</TD><TD>The estimates are based on the assumption that rear end crashes on dry road surfaces are not affected at all by ESC.</TD><TD>Lie, A., Tingvall, C., Krafft, M. & Kullgren, A.</TD><TD>2005</TD><TD>The effectivess of ESC (Electronic Stability Control) in reducing real life crashes and injuries. 19th International Technical Conference on the Enhanced Safety of Vehicles Conference (ESV), June 2005.</TD></TR><TR><TD>In Australia, ESC is estimated to reduce road fatalities in light vehicles by 29%. Assuming that ESC can prevent 50% of loss-of-control accidents and that an ESC units costs $1,000, ESC is estimated to have a benefit cost ratio of 0.51.</TD><TD>Compilation of ESC safety evaluation results throughout the world.</TD><TD>Paine, M</TD><TD>2005</TD><TD>Electronic Stability Control: Review of Research and Regulations. Vehicle Design and Research Pty Limited for Roads and Traffic Authority of NSW. June 2005.</TD></TR><TR><TD>In Germany, 100 per cent equipment of all cars with ESP is estimated to reduce the number of accidents with car occupant injuries by about 7 -11 %. The reduction in the car occupant fatalities would be approximately 15 -20 %</TD><TD>The study compiled all available accident studies on ESP effectiveness</TD><TD>Langwieder, K.</TD><TD>2005</TD><TD>Wissenschaftlicher Erkenntnisstand zu ESP. 10 Jahre ESP, Berlin, 23. Februar 2005.</TD></TR><TR><TD>Single vehicle crashes were reduced by 35% in passenger cars and by 67 % in SUV crashes. The study also showed significant or borderline-significant reductions in the multi-vehicle crash rates per 100,000 vehicle years with ESC.</TD><TD>As multi-vehicle crashes we used as the control group and it is possible that multi-vehicle crashes are being reduced by ESC, this means that the true effectiveness of ESC could be higher than estimated for single vehicle crashes. </TD><TD>Dang, J. </TD><TD>2004</TD><TD>Preliminary results analyzing the effectiveness of electronic stability control (ESC) systems. National Highway Traffic Safety Agency, USA.</TD></TR><TR><TD>ESC reduced single-vehicle crash involvement risk by approximately 41 % and single-vehicle injury crash involvement risk by 41 %. This translates to an estimated 7 % reduction in overall crash involvement risk and a 9 % reduction in overall injury crash involvement risk. Based on all fatal crashes in the United States over 3 years, ESC was found to have reduced single-vehicle fatal crash involvement risk by 56 percent. This translates to an estimated 34 percent reduction in overall fatal crash involvement risk. </TD><TD>The study compared crash involvement rates for otherwise identical vehicle models with and without ESC systems.</TD><TD>Farmer, C</TD><TD>2004</TD><TD>Effect of electronic stability control on automobile crash risk. Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, Arlington, Virginia, USA.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thanks XAN ;) only makes logical sence.

tl;dr. Summary - VDC / ESC saves lives?

Xan nice find. ill give you thst. That being said, seems as though between all those years there was never more then 50% reduction in accidents. In 2006 there were 56% fatal crashes and that was it. Also that was a overal survey done on all vehicals. The dabate here is of all the 370z accidents, how many were caused by the driver turning of VDC. You show me a chart of that and if it shows more accidents were caused due to having vdc off, ill shut up.

Becasue all i seen from the forums is either people running red lights and hitting a Z, people thinking someone is going to hit them so the swurve out of the way and hit something.

You're too much, I don't even know why I'm still responding, if you want to argue that VDC systems don't prevent accidents and don't save lives just because we are talking about 370Z's, even though there is a huge amount of studies that clearly show these systems do reduce accidents and casualties in both trucks and cars…
Have fun, but I won't be wasting my time on you...

Maybe you should start try your debate with the NHTSA, as they do agree it reduces accidents, so much so that they have a regulation for it, requiring all vehicles under 10k pounds, to have this system as a standard.
And no, they didn't make an exception for your 370Z....

Electronic Stability Control (ESC) | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

But by all means, fight the power! I'm done arguing ignorance.... :ugh2:

I never said that it doesnt save you from accidents. I said turning it off wont cause accidents and if you rely on it, like this guy....

instead of knowing what to actually do, then you shouldnt be driving a car. Sure by all means have it on, im not arguing that its a good tool. But when you get lazy and say "why do i need to learn something the computer will do for me" instead of knowing what is actually going on and how to get out of it...you shouldnt be driving.

Well said and I now i understand your point of view..Its not my way of wanting to drive but at least I understand why you do what you do..All I want to do is steer and push the accelerator and the brake and let the computer do the rest .

. LOL You have it... I just want my job to be just watching the road, watching other cars, avoiding police, avoiding pedestrians, finding my way, steering, pushing the gas pedal or hitting the brakes. I want to do things no computer can do.....

I am thinking that in 100 years cars will be totally automated in every respect and so the only debate will be whether or not one should tell the car where to go. ( traditionalists) or let the car choose the destination based on computer generated models of the driver's preferences!!!

^ Good thing I won't be around!

Thanks
 

Excellent post and thanks for the research

^Please don't quote this a hundred times!

Never more than a 50% reduction in accidents???!! and therefore you conclude what?? That 50% is insignificant? And then you say that no Nissan specific studies were made and you assume that unless proven otherwise the Nissan 370 is not bound by the usual laws of physics??

Try an autocross practice meet. Or run one yourself. Large industrial site parking lots on the weekends can be used as a skidpad.

i was only able to give that quick look, from what i seen there was nothing over 50%, looking at it now, the highest number bsides that 56% in 2006, is 24%.


Anyways im done with this thread, like i said, if you want VDC on, thats fine. But if you rely on it to do your work and not learn what to actually do, then you shouldnt be driving a car.

This discussion would probably be a lot shorter if the test to obtain a driver's license in the US involved more than driving around the block and parallel parking. ;)

VDC OFF = dead

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...5f70eb948c.jpg

I have only turned off VDC about three times, once when stuck on ice, once when I wanted to see how quickly the rear breaks out and once when doing a 0-60 run.

I have no reason to turn off VDC. I don't drive hard enough to engage it but its nice knowing its there.

you can say all you want about "blabla learn to drive" but situations where your rear breaks out and you have to counter steer and **** doesnt sound like normal driving.

in the almost a year of owning a Z I never had the rear break out on accident and im still driving around in near freezing temperatures on stock tires.

The only time I regretted VDC was when once in a while it would come on after coming out of a corner at francorchamps and flooring it in third.

It's not worth arguing with this clown.

My Miata does not have VDC.
But it makes up for it with superior doors.

Just a question,i planning to change my rear tyres to 285/35-19,while the front is stock 245/40-19,will this cause the VDC to have faults.?