so what exactly do you have to do....
 

if you find yourself going sideways?






...on a serious note

Enjoy your possibly last minutes.

J/K

let off the gas and steer in the direction of the skid

Take your foot off the gas and put it on the brake.

On somewhat off related matter, can you leave traction control OFF but leave the vehicle dynamic stability ON?

Are Zs more tail end happy than other rear wheel drive sports cars? Case in point, I found my C5 vette to slide its rear out easier than even my viper. That VDS (or active handling per GM) saved my a$$ many times. With the Viper, I hardly had any drama prob b/c I was always scared to drive that car hard...

You have 2 choices ... Traction Control "ON" or Traction Control "OFF".

You're in LA.
Call me I'll show you.

Before the test drive, i'll give u some tips:
Press the brake pedal as hard as u can and make sure the ABS turns on.
Let go of the steering wheel or better yet steer towards a direction that the nose is pointing to.
If that doesn't work, yank the e-brake and start steering left and right rapidly.
When its all done, post how many points you got.

wrong

wrong

wrong


Taking your foot off the gas when you are experiencing oversteer will cause you to spin.

What you want to do is apply an adequate amount of countersteer and stay on the gas smoothly until you have the slide under control, only then can you start to ease off the gas. Applying the brakes mid-slide is even worst that getting off the gas.

Don't freak out, don't tuck your head. Controlling a slide can be done 95% of the time. Whatever you do, dont get scared and jump OFF the gas, you will spin into whatever you are trying to avoid.

If you are talking about a full on out of control 4 wheel drift that you can't save because youre in dire dire situations... clutch in, brakes in and let them go when you think you are pointing in the right direction... IE not into a wall.

yep. this guy knows to drive. do not ditch the throttle. yes do not push it, but keep the throttle open and ready to make it get out out of the situation.
it also depends on the situation. sometimes counter steering will not help, so letting the car steer itself (depending on what kind of stability control u have) might help.

i also agree on using gears if it's critical.

on my 370z test drive the car went side ways, or the car kept on going straight despite my steering at a corner. my wheels where turned to the right but the car kept on sliding straight. the goddamn rev-match could have killed me coz i couldnt make it engine-stop the car. i had to steer back straight and brake hard. i freaked out but i acted like i knew what i was doing so the salesman doesnt go nuts on me. steering broke on me suddenly, it was a surprise compare to how well the car was handling right before

OP.
Do yourself a favour & go to a DE training.
You will learn why RCZ is correct.

will do, but i never argued that he's not correct. he is!

lol... sorry I was referring to the OP
'fixed'

For a second there I though that everything i learned at racing school and years of racing was wrong, but then RCZ calmed my concern.

now my question is, i was playing with the traction control system, because it was a sunday.... I noticed that when you kick the tale out and hit the throttle, the computer disengages the throttle, and well it corrects the 'spin' for you.... now I know that this is what its supposed to do, it applies the right amount of power. But question is if you are going at high speeds and get into a spin, will the computer still save you a$$ or does it just say "oh f*ck it let the driver figure it out" and give you control back.

Similar discussion on VDC/TC here:

http://www.the370z.com/new-370z-owne...c-issue-3.html

+1 don't forget to pump brake lightly.

I caught a crazy second gear last week. I was in the left lane on a one way two lane road. The back end slid into the right lane so I kept my foot on the gas and just went with it(after a very quick look in my right mirror). Traction control was off. I turned the steeling wheel slightly to the right and as I went into the right lane I upshifted to third and it straightened up and I just kept on going. Mental note: make sure tires are warm before doing stuff like that on a cold 35 degree Texas morning, trust me.

God, I just hope noone dies after reading this thread :shakes head:

I don't understand, are you people kicking out the rear on public roads on purpose?

When I start to fishtail my natural reaction is to disengage the clutch and but not touch the brakes. You're saying this is incorrect?

The thing is the computer reacts much faster and knows you're sliding before you even know it. It corrects the slide before the slide becomes a slide. If its too late, the ecu will apply throttle and brakes to control the slide as it detects which wheel has traction and which one doesn't. Traction control is way more complicated and advanced than most people know.. There is only SO much the computer can do though, if you get into an uncontrollable spin the computer will try to regain traction, however it is often futile. To answer your question of whether or not you get control again if the computer cant figure it out, the answer is no. If you decided to slam on the gas in the middle of your spin, the car won't let you. (not to mention that is a strategy best reserved for video games). Applying gas in that situation will only make things worst.

Ya, that is incorrect. It is actually the worst thing you can do. The moment you disengage the clutch you lose any ability to use the throttle to control the slide. Not to mention it is just as much of a shock to traction and balance as if you suddenly got off the throttle mid slide. Remember, all your inputs should lead to a smooth change in the overall dynamics of the car. If your car is doing very abrupt weight shifts either front and back or side to side, you aren't driving it right.

In high performance situations: When you press the gas you should be able to count from 1 to 5 at least in the process. Meaning the process of going from 0% to 100% throttle should take however long it takes you to say: one, two, three, four, five. When you press the brake you should be able to count from 3-6 in the process of going from 0% to 100% brake.

Similarly with turning, you should try to avoid turning abruptly in either direction. If you turn abruptly it will unsettle the car and often cause you to understeer (plow). Turn-in should always be smooth and controlled.

"But RCZ, when I watch anything from rally to timeattack to F1, the drivers are often flailing their hands around very abruptly! What gives!?"

Their inputs may be fast and abrupt, but if you ever see a shot from OUTSIDE the car, the car is moving very very smoothly. That is what matters. The weight transfers must be smooth and the movement of the car must be smooth. You may have to flail your hands around like a maniac at times, more so when you are driving race cars than street cars. (Think Karting if anyone has ever done it. Turn 1 at my local kart track is a flat out full speed right hander that leads into a very tight right hairpin. Sometimes I may have to catch not 1, but 5 or 6 slides in just that one corner. Hands flail, but the kart follows a smooth path. Yes I have also 720'd straight through the tirewall on the outside of the corner, but we won't talk about that). Again, be smooth and you will be faster and safer than everyone else.

Tying back to my original response; letting the clutch out/letting off the gas abruptly/braking = abrupt weight transfers = not good. The moment you lift off the gas it shifts the weight OFF the rear wheels and towards the fronts. I'm not going to get into the physics of friction and grip, but you can imagine that when there is less "weight" or force pushing down on the rear wheels, there is going to be less grip. Less grip = you're off the road.

Lastly, I should add that this logic applies also when you have FULL grip. If you are taking a fast sweeping corner and you let off the gas abruptly or tap the brakes, it will take weight off the rear tires and therefore you will loose grip and you will spin. You may have heard about this, it is referred to as "lift throttle oversteer" It is one of the most common major mistakes that rookies make on the track. If anyone remembers the pictures of the 997 GT2 I put up a while back, the one that crashed...guess what happened...yeah. Having the weight at the rear of the porsche helps grip until you lift and lose grip, then it becomes a pendulum.

I think it also needs to be defined whether a driver is in snow or asphalt. letting off the brake and turning into the skid is correct in snow. When I think of skidding, I think of Snow but I guess it all depends on where your driving.

yea my main concern is that
los angeles doesnt have many rainy days
but when they do the roads get really really slippery.

i once accelerated on a straight road (w/ vdc on) after
a light drizzle and the tail almost kicked out to the side.
if i had vdc off it wouldnt have been a pretty picture im sure.
So im just trying to get a little bit of knowledge of
how you control RWD cars.


oh and hey thanks RCZ and everyone else.
im not 100% sure what you guys meant but im starting
to get a picture of how to control it. :tup:

You are very welcome, I'm not sure what BanningZ meant, the behavior is the same for every situation regardless of whether its rain, snow, sleet or sunshine. Snow lets you get away with mistakes and makes you look like a hero, specially if you have AWD. The technique is still the same though...

Mattkim, all it takes is one day on the track and you will understand every single last thing everyone has said on this thread. Much of it is hard to grasp until you experience it. Get either on the track with an instructor or do a High Performance Driving School.

EDIT: Not every situation, mud is completely different, almost backwards...

Safe Winter Driving

I'm just saying that this method has saved my bacon a few times

BanningZ, that says "if your front wheels skid" that means understeer, thats not a slide. Thats the front of the car plowing through the turn...in that case then YES everything you said is right. A slide is usually the rear tires.

Car manufacturers make cars understeer from the factory because it is safer. It is safer because when people freak out they let off the gas and hit the brakes. That is the way to correct understeer, not oversteer.

The top part talks about oversteer and thats right, you turn into the slide. Notice that Line doesnt say jump off the gas or hit the brakes. It makes a second point to use the brakes if you have ABS. Thats not because its good to hit the brakes, its because ABS can help you a LOT to slow the car down once youve done STEP 1 which is to correct the slide.

I'm done. either way, Good job to all the people that posted even if there are some differing opinions

Sorry Im just jealous you have more rep.

First of all, RCZ was spot on throughout this thread, thanks for the in depth response. I now need to say nothing :tup:


Second, snow (if you have it) is a great time to practice controlling oversteer situations in a MUCH easier setting, using the same principles.
Tons of fun, especially if you are rocking AWD.


Third, weight transfer can be a bitch, don't lift in highspeed corners :D
unless you are in formula D and your name is Tanner Foust.

I'm confuse can we lose control just with normal driving (straight ,dry road ) or when go go fast on corners? What about going through gears fast straight line? You guys are scaring me is rwd that bad ?

^^^ don't worry they are talking extreems. Cars have been RWD for years old ladies can drive them. Go out and have a little fun with it you will find the limt you get comfortable with. It is not like every turn you make your @ss end kicks out and you are in a life or death situation stariing at a cement wall or 100' cliff.

Taking your foot off the gas and pressing the brake are the worst things to do

^^^ I let go of the stearing wheel and close my eyes. they say you go where you are looking so if you look nowhere you are safe. lol

Most important thing is not to panic. It can be pretty easy to talk about what you should do to bring the tail end back in order, but for many people it's difficult to execute simply because they aren't expecting the slide and panic, or just don't have that "feel."

Best advice I can give is just to learn how to drive on the edge in a controlled environment. Sign up for some high performance driving classes... ride along with licensed instructors at track days, etc. Get some seat time and feel what it's like to drive on a race track and start pushing the edge as you gain confidence.

You can also do some PC sim racing to supplement your real life experience. A realistic simulator like iRacing.com (which uses laser scanned tracks, accurate to the millimeter) and a good setup and routine practice will keep your senses up in between track days.

At the end of the day, though, some people are just born with it. I can hang the tail out all day long with a smile on my face. For others, a little bit of wheel spin could lead to a panic situation and a crash.

lmao

No, you will not lose control in normal driving. You have to be going fast in corners close to the limits of the car for this to apply. Most people have no idea where the limits of their cars are though and thats the dangerous part. This isn't just race track stuff though, lots of people like to go fast on exit ramps for example...I've seen more than a few instances where people lose it or almost lose it because they back off the throttle abruptly mid-corner. Remember, be smooth with the throttle and you will be OK. Even if you are mid corner going super fast, you can get off the gas, but you must do it SMOOTHLY. Count to 5 when as you are letting off.

RWD is not bad. You can drive your car hard chim, don't worry about these things just yet. Just be aware of them...

It takes experience, end of the story.

Also I am always hesitant to suggest video games because people are just like "what?". But this is a HUUUUUUUUGE point. I wish everyone who is starting to drive a sports car would be FORCED to buy a Logitech G25 Racing wheel and GTR2. There are other good simulations and steering wheels too. THe G25 has a gated shifter and a clutch though, so it is the most realistic.

You guys have NO idea how helpful these "games" can be. They help you build automatic responses to slides/understeer/snap oversteer/ wheelspin/ spins/ weight transfer/ smoothness/ the correct line around corners. In a completely safe environment.

I highly HIGHLY suggest you guys who are just learning to handle RWD Spend $20 for GTR2 and $60 for a Logitech MOMO Racing Steering Wheel. If you have a little more cash, DEFINITELY get the Logitech G25 Wheel. You will thank me later.

Also, to the ones who gave me Rep, thank you. Lets me know my comments are appreciated and that they are actually being read. As stupid as it sounds, it justifies spending 15 min replying to a thread for the good of the members.

I'd drift my stress away on the lighter note

that's what i find like a catch-22 situation with the Z. i have never been on the track, i get all the theory but in action it's always different. i want a track car to go on the track and practice that. the Z doesnt let u because requires that you are already experienced (VDC off = know ur stuff or die)...

It IS possible for the back end of a Z to break away when you're accelerating in a straight line. It's happened to me accidentally, and I've done it on purpose too, on quite a few occasions.

RCZ is right - the thing to do is get yourself plenty of off-road practice and make this sort of thing happen intentionally, so you know what to do if/when it DOES happen.

...because it WILL happen one day, unless you drive with granny boots on - and most of us don't. The last thing you want is for it to be a surprise.

Be safe.

alright so does anyone know of any good racing schools in SOCAl? :tup:

ask the dmv :tup:

Opa-Locka??? Xtreme indoor is left turn into left hair pin, never been to the one in opa-locka.

anyways good info, never thought about the counting from 3-6 while breaking, i was taught to hit the pedal once hard enough not to lock, and then ease off and apply pressure repeatedly (essentially making a human ABS).

I havent tried xtreme yet, but Opa Locka is outdoors and it is an absolute blast. They have 8HP karts with rental non-race tires on now. That means if you dont know what youre doing..you are going to learn very very quickly. Lessons learned on the kart track are invaluable. I can almost guarantee you that Opa Locka is the best rental place around Miami. Open, fast, lots of passing opportunities and the track takes a while to perfect. I've been racing there for like 3 years and my friend for over 6. We are are usually within a tenth off each other. If you are around the area, I highly encourage you to come race with us.

!xoible -
1) Get a bunch of $1 dollar training "flat cones" at your local sport store's soccer section.
2)Wait for rain. (if not you will be going faster and it will be harder to break it lose. AND you will smoke your tires.)
3)Find a parking lot with enough space.
4) set up a "U" shaped turn or simply outline a circle with the cones.
5) Practice breaking lose the rear end and holding a slide through the cones. OR if you set up the circle, practice holding the slide around the circle as long as possible.

This is one of the activities when you go to driving school. They call it a "skid pad" and they soak it with water for you..which is very cool.

It will help you a crapton if you go with someone who knows what they are doing already. Eventually your brain will stop saying "freak out" and start saying "countersteer enjoy"