Nissan 370Z Forum - Intake, Header, HFC, CBE = Too Lean?

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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)

- Intake/Exhaust (http://www.the370z.com/intake-exhaust/)

- - Intake, Header, HFC, CBE = Too Lean? (http://www.the370z.com/intake-exhaust/16437-intake-header-hfc-cbe-too-lean.html)

Zsteve

03-25-2010 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 464044)

I will be getting it when I get my tune next month (after LTH), will post a review plus some pictures of the software, etc.

After the ups and downs with uprev, and people getting tuned and some showing good and some showing bad gains, I wonder what if anything have they (meaning all companies) done to get better results?

theDreamer

03-25-2010 03:42 PM

I will dyno tune, hoping to go to Austin to meet (again) the Uprev team but a shop in Houston now offers dyno tuning with Uprev so not sure yet.
I have never gotten into tuning and will be glad to have someone do it for me at first, but like many things I do I will learn myself on what to do and such.

semtex

03-25-2010 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464061)

After the ups and downs with uprev, and people getting tuned and some showing good and some showing bad gains, I wonder what if anything have they (meaning all companies) done to get better results?

Yeah I'm eager to know the answer to that question myself. But I just want to remind you guys the context of this little side-discussion on UpRev vs. Cobb. Vegitto-kun expressed a concern that he was planning to do all these mods that would make him run lean, and that he wouldn't be able to dyno tune to correct it, as he's over in Belgium. So we're just trying to point out to him that he's not screwed. He can go with either Cobb or Uprev, and either one will allow him to send his data back and get an e-tune. Even if that e-tune didn't yield substantial gains, it'd at least address his concern about running lean, as his AFR would presumably get corrected once he uploads his e-tune. That's the only thing that I was trying to convey, anyway.

theDreamer

03-25-2010 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464061)

After the ups and downs with uprev, and people getting tuned and some showing good and some showing bad gains, I wonder what if anything have they (meaning all companies) done to get better results?

There really are no good or bad results.
The thing you have to look at with any tune is where did they start with.
Some cars come with solid tunes from factory which respond well to aftermarket parts while others will try to fight the change until you tune the car.

Also: I believe no company really has a solid tuning software out yet (meaning they both just unlock AF adjustments and that is about it). VVEL/timing/etc. will be the major game changer.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 464064)

think you could do a dyno with just the map, then another after they dyno tune?

4r3s	03-25-2010 03:46 PM

wow this thread is awesome, so much good information!

semtex

03-25-2010 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464069)

think you could do a dyno with just the map, then another after they dyno tune?

You mean with the base reflash prior to adjustments? I think they'll automatically do that. Actually, they have to in order to establish a baseline for the tune.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex (Post 464067)

True and the canned map that you get without having to send your info back and forth will take care of that too. I get my Cobb today and I will see if I can get some AF reading before and after to see how they changed the AF with just a canned tune.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex (Post 464075)

You mean with the base reflash prior to adjustments? I think they'll automatically do that. Actually, they have to in order to establish a baseline for the tune.

Yea a dyno after they load the new map and then one after they tweak it on the dyno. To get an idea how much the dyno tune will get you over a canned map.

Red370

03-25-2010 03:50 PM

yeah i'd like to see that myself

semtex

03-25-2010 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464076)

Hmm...I'm not so sure it would though. Well, let me phrase that a little differently. It depends on whether or not the canned map properly takes into account all these mods that causing people's cars to run lean. I'll be very interested to see your results. It should settle this particular question once and for all. I certainly hope it takes care of the AFR. Less hassle/effort/expense for those who are just looking to correct their AFR!

theDreamer

03-25-2010 03:51 PM

Semtex is right, they have to do two (or more usually) runs.
The first run will be getting my current baseline numbers, AF ratio, etc. Then they will start to do more runs smoothing everything out and making adjustments as needed.

theDreamer

03-25-2010 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex (Post 464086)

Very true, if a canned tune can bring the AFR back into the proper range without a dyno tune that will be great for people just wanting that.

semtex

03-25-2010 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464079)

Yea a dyno after they load the new map and then one after they tweak it on the dyno. To get an idea how much the dyno tune will get you over a canned map.

I can't speak for Cobb, but I can tell you that when you reflash the new ROM into your ECU with UpRev, that base map is exactly that. It's a base map that has all of the factory parameters, and assumes no mods. By itself, it is not intended to yield any gains. Its sole purpose is to provide the tuner with a platform on which he can load maps that he builds via the process of running your car on the dyno. You see, the factory ROM that comes from Nissan allows no such thing. There are no 'slots' to drop the maps you build into, so to speak. So you replace the factory ROM with UpRev's ROM, and their ROM has these 'slots' for you to plug your performance map(s) into (as well as your valet and anti-theft maps).

Zsteve

03-25-2010 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 464088)

Oh OK I guess I was under the impression they would load a canned map first then do the dyno tune.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex (Post 464097)

AA has you tell them what mods you have and they adjust the tune acording to the mods and I think the AFR is one of the changes and probably timing, then they put it on the accessport for you to load.

semtex

03-25-2010 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464101)

Right, and that would be equivalent to Uprev's e-tune service. But I don't know of anyone on this forum who has tried Uprev's e-tune yet. That's why I was asking Dreamer if he was getting a dyno tune, because for a moment I thought maybe he was going to try the e-tune. See it's one or the other, you don't do both. Now, a e-tune is a viable alternative if you don't want to (or just can't) do a full dyno-tune.

But you can also use Cobb to do a full dyno tune. And if you were to do that, I suspect it'd work in much the same way as Uprev. i.e., the initial load would be a 'blank' map that has all the same parameters as a stock car. It'd be kinda like a blank canvas onto which your dyno tuner could lay down his masterpiece.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 04:02 PM

so to find if Im running lean right now, what gear and rpm range should I do a AFR check in? I have the 7AT.

semtex

03-25-2010 04:03 PM

Doesn't Cobb log the data as you run through all the gears? Like it doesn't require you to stay in just one gear while you log, does it?

Red370

03-25-2010 04:04 PM

quick question since we're on the subject, the software that came with my AP doesnt allow me to view my maps or alter them, its some kind of crazy format, any ideas on what software I should download to view them?

Zsteve

03-25-2010 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex (Post 464117)

Doesn't Cobb log the data as you run through all the gears? Like it doesn't require you to stay in just one gear while you log, does it?

Im not sure I will see when I get it, I know it logs just dont know if its an all time thing or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red370 (Post 464121)

I think Cobb has a tuners software program you can buy to do that.

semtex

03-25-2010 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464125)

Im not sure I will see when I get it, I know it logs just dont know if its an all time thing or not.

I think Cobb has a tuners software program you can buy to do that.

Hmm...Well, if you think of a dyno graph, AFR is measured throughout the entire RPM range. So I would expect Cobb to do the same thing. But you might have to stay in a particular gear, just like you dyno in a particular gear. On the 7AT, I think you're supposed to dyno in 6th.

Red370

03-25-2010 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464125)

Im not sure I will see when I get it, I know it logs just dont know if its an all time thing or not.

I think Cobb has a tuners software program you can buy to do that.

You would think that it would come with the hardware...

theDreamer

03-25-2010 04:09 PM

CobbTuning.com - AccessPORT > Tune > Self-Tuning - Cobb PC software.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 04:10 PM

Alex when you did your AFR scans how were they done?

Red370

03-25-2010 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer (Post 464136)

CobbTuning.com - AccessPORT > Tune > Self-Tuning - Cobb PC software.

never noticed that, i <3 you.

Red370

03-25-2010 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464140)

Alex when you did your AFR scans how were they done?

I never had them read on a dyno, just seen what they were when I plugged in my AP, never checked them at WOT because the numbers fluctuate so rapidly, im sure I could probably datalog and pull it up on my laptop if i wanted to.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red370 (Post 464149)

I'll ask AA how to logg that on the device. I dont think you need a computer, I think you can logg it on the device and then transfer it somehow.

Red370

03-25-2010 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 464152)

I'll ask AA how to logg that on the device. I dont think you need a computer, I think you can logg it on the device and then transfer it somehow.

Oh i know it logs on the device, the box it comes in comes with a pc to device plug so you can transfer the data.

Zsteve

03-25-2010 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red370 (Post 464158)

Oh i know it logs on the device, the box it comes in comes with a pc to device plug so you can transfer the data.

Im waiting on mine right now at the house.

Red370

03-26-2010 12:55 PM

Did some datalogging today, here are some numbers i'd like you guys to take a look at, I did a few 1st gear WOT runs just to get an idea of what my AFR's were looking like, take a look.. The Mid 14's at 6500rpms make me nervous..

Columns:
1. Seconds 2. Coolant temp 3. Intake temp 4. Ignition Advance 5. Oil Temp 6. RPMs 7. MAF 8. Vehicle speed 9. AFR 10. AF Correction

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...t6/datalog.jpg

semtex

03-26-2010 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red370 (Post 465610)

Hmm...kinda hard to tell. I think you need to sort the data. The rpm isn't showing from lowest to highest. Plus, it's only showing what appears to be a narrow slice of the rpm range in the 6000's.

If it helps you at all, here's my latest dyno showing AFR, and this was after getting a tune so the AFR is adjusted to where it ought to be.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...e102809_AF.jpg

Modshack

03-26-2010 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex (Post 465640)

In addition, first gear is a poor one to get decent logs from. You really want the car under load. Suggest 3rd gear or higher if you have the room..

semtex

03-26-2010 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack (Post 465658)

In addition, first gear is a poor one to get decent logs from. You really want the car under load. Suggest 3rd gear or higher if you have the room..

:iagree: I missed the part about being in 1st gear.

chris410

03-26-2010 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.I. Inc. (Post 461753)

No you do not. If you run the HFC's and CBE your car will not become too lean. The ECU will correct and do it's job. Here is why the intakes change the A/F ratio's so much more than the exhaust system.

Inside your stock intake tube is a MAF (Mass Air Meter) As the air rushes by it, it samples that air. It works directly with the ECU and is calibrated specifically for the car. If you change altitude your cars A/F ratio will change. Meaning being at sea level opposed to driving in the mountains. In the higher altitude your car will actually be richer. Here is why, the air is thinner up there, your car naturally will take in less air. It naturally wants to lean out due to this and in most cases the ECU will compensate by dumping too much fuel and make the car rich. The MAF and ECU are designed from the factory to do this. However, they only work to a certain extent being that the elements from one place to the next are too different. If it worked perfectly your A/F would be optimum wherever you drove.

Now if you put an aftermarket CAI on the car that changes the location of the MAF or the tubing diameter it will change everything. The car is not calibrated for it. In the case of the Stillen Gen III intakes with exhaust & headers the intakes are causing the car to run way too lean. This is why you need a re tune so at the least amount you can bring the A/F ratios back to where they need to be. I know this how you may ask, over the past two days I dynoed a car that had Stillen Gen III intakes with our exhaust components and the car was borderline unsafe in terms of A/F. We re tuned the car, picked up alot of mid range power and low end torque just be getting the A/F back in the 12's. To be continued I am sure...

Thanks, Tony

Well said Tony, everyone needs to keep in mind that most dyno graphs of the G3 intake show a "peak" gain which means next to nothing for overall performance. The K&N drop-ins are your best route to go with the stock intakes along with a CBE and HFC.

However, like Tony said...if you change the location and process of how the car reads the air ratios, you are at risk of running lean because the car may not be adjusting the fuel ECU map correctly. You have two ways of determining this, either pull your plugs and read them (basically if you are running lean you will see a whiteish plug) or get to a dyno and get an a/f reading. If you are running lean, the car "should" pull timing which means you are losing power. Don't make your mods work against you!

You will not be able to put more power using an intake, HFC, and CBE IF the car can adjust air/fuel correctly. If you go the supercharger/turbo route of course the game changes quite a bit. So, for those of you going with the G3, you should at least get your air/fuel readings to make sure you're not going lean. Better safe than sorry!

Red370

03-26-2010 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack (Post 465658)

In addition, first gear is a poor one to get decent logs from. You really want the car under load. Suggest 3rd gear or higher if you have the room..

Oh ok, i'll try to get it out on the highway after work and post my results. Sorry for the shytty excel numbers, i'd sort the numbers to descending but I dont have the full version :icon17:

semtex

03-26-2010 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris410 (Post 465683)

You will not be able to put more power using an intake, HFC, and CBE IF the car can adjust air/fuel correctly.

I disagree.

I started off with a CBE and HFC. I never dyno'd before this, only after, so my baseline is with the CBE and HFC.

Baseline: Max = 291.7whp. My only mods were the Stillen cat-back exhaust and the Berk HFCs.

http://www.the370z.com/members/semte...1467494cd8.jpg

Then I went and added the G3 intakes.
After: Max = 306.4whp.

http://www.the370z.com/members/semte...re-14-7whp.jpg

Net gain = 14.7whp.

Then I added headers.

This first graph shows HP and A/F:
http://www.the370z.com/members/semte...209hpandaf.jpg

This one shows torque:
http://www.the370z.com/members/semte...9-042209tq.jpg

So I should be running really lean now, right? And when I get a tune and get my AFR adjusted, my HP should go back down as a result of the AFR correction, right? But it doesn't. And keep in mind that AFR correction is pretty much the only thing a tune is good for right now, because timing adjustments just get bounced back, so it's not like we're offsetting HP loss via AFR correction with HP gain via timing advancement.

Sharif at Forged Performance did my tune, and he made sure the AFR is where it ought to be.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...e102809_AF.jpg

Final number: 318.1

Unless I'm missing something, it does not appear that my gains from the G3 intake were at any point negated by AFR correction, which leads me to conclude that the gain I got from the G3 was legit, and not simply because it caused my engine to run lean.

KEVTEX

03-26-2010 03:45 PM

+1 rep for lots of real numbers to clarify benefits of cai after cbe+hfc's.

Red370

03-26-2010 04:26 PM

ouch, somebody just got :owned:

Zsteve

03-26-2010 05:10 PM

so semtex is your AFR starting at 14 and then at high rpms going down to around 12? I thought it was suppose to go up when you get on it? When I was checking my AFR yesterday it would flucate alot but always seemed to settle around 14.xx, is this good or bad?

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