TT vs. Single
 

For the last year I have been all over the FI area of the site. And I'm finally ready for a kit! But which one, what are the pros and cons between going twin vs. a single other than price that is? Can you guys help me out?

I can't take you're serious with that Avatar

But something to read if you haven't

http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ion-noobs.html

Single= less parts, easier install, same HP potential as TT.

Twins generally cost more, more labor intensive and not as efficient as a good single. They do spool faster, easier to package, and still make more power to kill the efficiency argument.

Seems like most single turbo kits are easier to install, cheaper to purchase, and have been able achieve full boost within 500-750 rpm of a twin system. For guys that have aftermarket exhausts, some may find it difficult to pair it up if it isn't Fast Intentions or Y pipe without a shop fabricating something up. There is a top mount kit, a mid mount kit, and then of course the STS rear mount turbo. The farther away the turbo, the longer the delay before the turbo is under pressure.

Some kits are more complete and easier to install than others, could save money in the long run.

Of course, superchargers, especially GTM's have been pretty impressive with the 370Z's, for anyone wishing to build power a bit more progressively.

+100000

With all the info out there.... Seriously???:shakes head:

we've had this discussion before NEO

The plans are to run it on the drag strip definetly. I am looking for a low 60 ft. time. Looks like if I want to accomplish that I'm gonna need a single.

Just remember, that was written when the ST kits started to hit the market, by somebody that only sells TT kits.


With a single turbo kit, the key is a large turbine housing. If you are looking at a TT kit though, go with the new F.I kit. Those (unlike other TT manifolds) are built to flow.

Oh god I remember that propaganda thread :facepalm:....I found it ironic it came out the same time all the single turbo systems were being developed and starting to come on the market. Good read though and loads of info.

What it all boils down to is this...the amount you want to spend and what you are looking to get out of what you spend. Spend $10k on twins and get around 520hp...spwnd $8-9k and get around 520hp.:tiphat:

Boosted has the best kit on the market IMO and has a direct line to my bank account. As soon as I give him the ok to start taking money that is. Lol

Can't wait for him to get started on the next batch :)

Yup, there's a reason we developed a TT kit...it's in the OP I wrote. The reason I wrote that is because I firmly believe that a TT kit for this application is a better solution. While you may disagree with my assessment, at no time have you ever contributed a serious rebuttal for the technical discussion. From a purely technical perspective, why do you think that a single turbo is a better solution?

I definitely agree with you on the bigger turbine housing for a single...the closer it is to the engine, the bigger it can be as well to get great response as well as top end.

As for your third sentence, do they outflow the GReddy manifolds they are facsimile of (minus the V-band flange)? Do you have flow numbers for all the TT manifolds to validate your claim?

Ummmm... Not so fast. The quickest VQ37VHR powered vehicle on the strip just so happens to be a fast spooling, daily driven, GTM twin turbo, old lady automatic, in a heavier car than the 370Z.

Just sayin'.... :tiphat:

Coop

We can get techincal all you want, but in the end people look at the power output, so what is the point? Same goes for the power delivery, when comparing the twin scroll to the TT kit, I am sure you have seen the dyno. As for better/worse, at no point in this thread did I say TT is better than a ST kit. That is for the customers to research and make the decision based on what they want.




You can't possibly argue the fact that those F.I manifolds are as good as it gets without going equal length. Each one of the runners come together just before the turbine inlet, directing flow in one (towards the turbine) direction, and at no point does one exhaust pulse interfeer with the next (no "T" type merge). There is no need to get thechinical here either, it is rather obvious that these are very well built, and that a lot of engineering went in to them.

Mike@GTM...

PM sent!

@ Tony sorry man work has been hectic as I know your probably more busy than I am. I'll give you a call later today.

Snap!

Oh shyt

I don't blame him for jumping on the guy tho. FI's manifolds were designed by an engineer they contracted with lots of experience in CAD design of items like turbo manifolds. They didn't copy anyone, it's just not a design goal to make sure their product doesn't vaguely resemble another product on the market, when they're obviously made to perform the same function.

Form does follow function in these matters, after all.

Because Mike@GTM says:

I did this:

http://i.imgur.com/TNpTvNo.jpg

And zoomed in on the deltas:

http://i.imgur.com/f5Uf8Kd.jpg

So in the absolute best region for the GTM TT, you are talking 150 RPM (200 at best). And this is GTM's latest/greatest for which I haven't even seen pricing or availability and the GTM dyno is with no mufflers.
Top end horsepower isn't all that much of an issue if you aren't building the internals for it. The Boosted kit with a different housing is rated at 700+. I'm willing to bet 98% of every boosted Z will never see those numbers. It's a different conversation.
I won't get into install/cost here, but that's a no brainer.

Dyno charts used:
http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...-build-61.html
http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ctane-7at.html

Sorry for the massive picture sizes, but if I scale them weird things happen to the grid. :tiphat:

that's the cheaper 16G kit. They also make kits using the GT28RS turbo's. Not only that, tunes can be conservative or aggressive. There are no boost pressure numbers either. Biggest takeaway which is already a known... Both give and take. Faster response and spool time for some top end efficiency loss or wait a bit later for full boost and have higher efficiency up top. I'm not taking sides i the argument because I do like the work of all three vendors here, but this was represented poorly.

I have the boost vs RPM numbers for Boosted Performance chart, couldn't find them for GTM. I'd be willing to show them in the same context if someone wants to point me in the right direction.

And my point still holds. Sam said a single turbo is too ineffective to be used as a street setup. This proves otherwise (unless their 16G kit is too ineffective to be used as a street setup).

You say cheaper. Show me cost numbers for the two GTM kits (couldn't find those either). The Boosted Performance is well under $8k for everything down to the oil filter and RTV sealant. Sasha is VERY transparent with EVERYTHING so it makes it easier to find.

For what it is worth, the Boosted Performance dyno chart is the base map. The GTM is what is in their thread.

I don't want it to seem like I have a dog in this fight. I'm merely a customer in the market for a forced induction system in the next few months and want to compare what is out there.

I didn't say twins are cheaper. Nothing is cheaper about a twin setup. I'm referring to your graph. It's a nice comparison, but missing key details. This is also GTM's entry level twin turbo option which doesn't have options to grow like their GT28RS kit was designed for.

The twin scroll setup Sasha designed does a really good job mitigating traditional single mid mount turbo deficiencies. I think what he has done is fantastic. I'm not taking anything away from him.

All I'm saying is if your going to compare a single turbo rated for 700bhp, then compare it to twins with the same rating. It will paint a more accurate picture if all facts are included. Also there must be wiggle room in the comparison because of different dyno's, different elevation, and different climate.

This isn't the housing rated for 700+ hp. This is his "standard" housing (550ish ballpark).

Yes dynos/climate/tunes all play a part. Hell if I wanted to make a truly fair comparison I would use the dyno sheet from the GTM website instead of one for a kit that hasn't been released to the general public yet.

But none of that pertains to the point of the comparison I made. The point of the comparison was Sam and Mike still to this day are standing by the fact that a single turbo kit isn't suitable for the street (which is why I quoted Sam for context)

Just to comment on the response...we were able to make 10psi of boost at 3700rpm (using an EBC). That would be considered as very good for any kit, single or twin considering that you would rev all the way to 7500rpm with these engines. I have not seen any data on this on with the TT kits, so I can't comment on that.

This was with the smallest turbine housing (1.0 a/r) I would use on this platform, for a street driven car. Going up to a 1.15 would slow the spool down just a bit, maybe 200rpm, but it would open up the doors to 600+whp without much effort.

So, in other words, for one to say that something else (different type of kit) that does the same thing on paper is superior to another product is just plain silly.

10psi @ 3700 is impressive. I think you have the most solid single kit to date. I would most likely choose it over twins because the difference in response is too small to merit the extra expense. Some would say otherwise. I'm just hoping to keep accurate, fair, and impartial results for BP, GTM, and F.I. and their respective turbo kits. To say you all have a fan base is an understatement, so even with this competitive smack talking, obviously your doing something right.

By all means, and if the consumer chooses one kit over another, for whatever reason, by all means go ahead, it is your money.

My beef is in the quote provided above by m3chhawk. Where one manufacturer says that a “single turbo kit is a poor choice” and that a TT kit will have a “boost threshold 1500 – 2500rpm later than twins” not to mention that “The single turbo system has too many compromises to make as effective of a street setup” When clearly not one of those statements is true when comparing real world results. This is why I say you can go all technical on theory and thermal dynamics all day long...but in the end, the results on paper speak the truth.

Sub'd because I love reading these BS "who's got the biggest díck now?" Threads

:facepalm:

You sure you just don't like looking at pictures of whose got the biggest? haha

Its these threads and competition that push the market forward :)

LMAO!!!

I GUESS? All I know is,

I'll say one thing, I sure do wish all these options were available when I purchased my kit... I truly enjoy seeing all these new competitive kits now... Will make for a much interesting FI future here now.

That was with that crappy AEM Truboost too. I don't care if you go single or twins, just go with the EVC-6, it was a vast improvement.

edit* i tried the blitz i-d iii spec-r, it was better then the AEM but still not as good as the EVC-6. Only downside to the EVC-6 is its a bit hard to understand at first.

Please close this thread out of respect of the vendors.

searching prevents all of this...

Both can make the same power - given the turbo and tune

both can boost at the same time - given the turbo and tune selection.

/thread

Request granted