Nissan 370Z Forum

Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Forced Induction (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/)
-   -   How much power do you think is safe on stock internals? (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/36848-how-much-power-do-you-think-safe-stock-internals.html)

b1adesofcha0s 05-23-2011 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion (Post 1128560)
From personal experience:

GTR oil change at the dealer: $150 (under normal driving: every 6K miles)

Transmission service: $1800-$2000 at the dealer (under normal driving: every 18K miles)

Tires: about $400-$450 per tire (tirerack) and under normal driving set will last about 12-15K miles.

If you track the car: If oil temps exceed 230 deg, change oil after track day

If trans temps go betwn 230-260 deg, change trans fluid w/in 1800 miles after track event.

If trans temps exceed 260 deg, change trans fluid asap.

Brake pads last around 35K miles under normal driving. No longer required to change rotors with pads every time.

Full brake service from dealer: new pads and rotors will run around $8K, aftermarker (read, better) pads and rotors will run around $4 to $6K depending on brand, labor rate etc.

For a supercar, it's much cheaper to maintain a GTR than a lambo or Ferrari, the problem is since it's a nissan, folks expect to pay sentra maintenance prices.

Thanks for the info!

birdmanx1 05-23-2011 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s (Post 1128569)
I'll be happy to experience them myself :bowrofl:

Don't flake out on me dude, keep that 500+ whp GTR in your sight once you get that oil muneyyy ;)

b1adesofcha0s 05-23-2011 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdmanx1 (Post 1128580)
Don't flake out on me dude, keep that 500+ whp GTR in your sight once you get that oil muneyyy ;)

What oil money? :roflpuke2:

Still have supercar plans/dreams for the future :tup:

FL 4Motion 05-23-2011 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdmanx1 (Post 1128570)
FL_Motion, from those numbers you gave, they're really not any worse than maintaining a Mercedes where oil changes were $500 for Service A, $1500 (3000m) Service B (10,000mi), $1500+ for ANYTHING breaking in the car.

Someone at the dealership told me that it cost about $8000 for ceramic brakes replacement, not sure if it is confirmed or not but I would think that for a supercar such as the GTR, you really have to pay to play.

Thx for the great info btw.

ceramic brakes for the GTR?? :bowrofl: AP racing has a true ceramic brake replacement for the GTR (rotors and calipers) iirc, it's around 15-20K. But, the rotors never need to be replaced and will handle heat from traking better than any iron rotor ever could. Most dealers are beyond cluless, esp when the GTR is involved. When we had ours, we had salesmen begging us to let them ride in it since the owner of the dealership wouldn't let them even sit in or touch the ones for sale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s (Post 1128572)
Thanks for the info!

:tiphat:

NewYorkJon34 05-23-2011 08:56 PM

To get back on the thread topic, does anyone know the compression ratio of the GTM pistons? It says for the 350z pistons, but not the 370z ones.

Lemers 05-23-2011 08:59 PM

332 at the crank.

NewYorkJon34 05-23-2011 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemers (Post 1128654)
332 at the crank.

?

Red__Zed 05-23-2011 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemers (Post 1128654)
332 at the crank.

yeah, I heard changing your intake filters to K&N can cause it to make so much power you will blow your motor almost immediately.

b1adesofcha0s 05-23-2011 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1128676)
yeah, I heard changing your intake filters to K&N can cause it to make so much power you will blow your motor almost immediately.

:icon18:

If you put a bird in there, you can achieve such seemingly outrageous compression ratios with great ease.

Ok let's get back on topic now...

SAM@GTM 05-23-2011 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 1126403)
Hey guys, just taking a poll to see what people think is safe and what isn't. If you would like to add why and under what circumstances, that would be appreciated. Keep it civil please.

Also, lets talk dynojet numbers so we can all be on the same page and since both GTM and Stillen use them.

I posted this in another thread so i just Quoted my self

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAM@GTM (Post 1128697)
The answer is: Nobody can determine what is "safe" vs. "unsafe" horsepower or boost for the motor. The real risk factor is always there. It can be minimized, but never eliminated.

There are two risk factors that we have to look at. First one is the compressive strength of the rod once fatigued, which we don't know simply due to the shear number of cycles a rod sees (the rod would have to sit in a fatigue testing cell for a couple years 24/7 to come close to modeling the cycles a rod sees in real life). The only thing we can do is base it on real life experience. This means how many engines have snapped a rod due to installing forced induction.

Back in the days of the 350Z, this answer was simple: 400whp was the limit...anything more, and you would need a built motor. Another thing I'd like to throw in there (I will cover in more detail later) is that it has been established is that supercharger cars had a longer life expectancy at higher power levels than twin turbocharged cars. The reason is simple: turbo cars make more torque and do so abruptly thus shock loading the rods and snapping them like so many toothpicks. Fast forward to the VQ37VHR. We noticed that the rods are beefier and it's almost as if Nissan was compensating for the more powerful higher reving engine. Here is a pic below showing the transition from the VQ35DE to the VQ35HR to the VQ37VHR.


Arguably, we have installed more forced induction kits on the VQ HR and VHR motor than anyone in the world. So far, these engines have shown a great track record. I think the reason for this success is a combination of a few things that have been improved over the older DE engine.

1) Better Internal Engine Components
2) More stable Main bearing caps
3) Better Combustion chamber design
4) Better cooling system design (cylinder heads are the first to be cooled down vs. the old DE engine which had the block being cooled first)
5) Better Head Bolts
6) Better Dynamic Timing Control

Finally and most importantly is TUNING. This is the key ingredient to maximizing the longevity of a forced induction build on a stock engine. Tuning is an art as well as a science and requires intimate knowledge of the components of an engine management system and how they all relate to each other. For example, the Nissan ECU has a Temperature Compensation table to alter the Ignition Timing Table based on what the MAF sensor sees. So, if the MAF sensor sees cold air, the ECU will advance the timing. We located the MAF sensors where we did for precisely this reason, so that we can give the ECU a real time indication of how hot or cold the air entering the combustion chamber really is. This is a critical part of saving the engine. We all know that when supercharging, our biggest challenge is IAT (Intake Air Temperature). Since the supercharger is a compressor, the air is heated up substantially and it is important to have the proper ignition timing for hot air/fuel mixtures. Here's a sample of how a Temperature Compensation Table is supposed to look (note that the hotter the air gets, the more timing gets pulled):


Another thing to keep in mind when it comes to these engines, is that although it is an 11:1 compression...that's static compression. Dynamic compression takes into account volumetric efficiency, so that means that the effective compression ratio changes throughout the power band. I can tell you from experience that there is no way in hell that we could run the timing table we use on the VQ37VHR on an earlier VQ motor.

That all said, I want to give you a visual guide to torque curves to help you all understand why you can have more horsepower on a supercharged car than you can on a turbocharged car. The graphs below show different twin turbo setups compared to the 523hp supercharged setup. Pay special attention to the peak torque and how hard torque comes on. Understand that peak torque represents peak cylinder pressures. So the less peak torque you have, the less peak cylinder pressures your engine is seeing and the less stress there is on the motor overall. Although the supercharger engine has to work harder to make the same peak power as the twin turbo car, is still has less internal stress as the torque grows in a linear fashion.


If you ask me what is the single most important thing that anyone can do to keep their forced induction system running as long as possible without building their engine, is to focus on the tuning aspect of the build and eliminate any detonation. Detonation is an uncontrolled explosion rather than smooth expansion of burning gas. Eventually, detonation will beat up the engine bearings, leading to excessive clearance and spun bearings. Even if the rod or piston doesn't break, you will still have premature engine failure.

In closing, the things to watch out for are as follows:

Peak Torque
Detonation
Air Intake Temperature Compensation
Fuel Quality

IMO a well tuned 500 RWHP has a lot better chance surviving then a 400RWHP that is not tuned correctly

Sam


RCZ 05-23-2011 11:55 PM

I saw it, thanks a lot Sam. Good Stuff.

JTTZR 05-24-2011 12:34 AM

I think it all comes down to the trade-off between more power, a shorter life span. Strongly correlated with that is the $ investment as well as the quality of the work & maintenance performed.

At the end of the day - assuming a realistic tune (on a limited budget) - the trade-off will always be greater wear and tear as 99% of us are on a limited budget.

So, really, you probably need to work this one backwards:

1) How long do you want the car to last?
2) How much power do you want?

Out of those two variables results the required budget. So:

3) What's the required investment?

Out of these three variables you could create a pretty solid (and simple Excel) function (using either a sample via questionnaire or good experience figures from Z experts like Sam) - but it would still not necessarily account for the quality of the work and maintenance done on the car.

Sorry, the post is a bit theoretical in nature. :wtf2:

Rooskey 05-24-2011 12:54 AM

I have a completely stock engine from japan. My first japanese sports car. Not my first japanese automobile. Had lots of toyota 4x4's. Got to say this is the first one I have had that burns oil. Not a good sign at all. As far as putting forced induction on this engine I would hesitate by all means. Not that I couldnt afford it, but just not a satisfied customer in this department. Im sure it is a good engine as long as someone looks after it and does scheduled maintenance. I would not put my wife in a nissan if it requires the oil checked every 1,000 miles. Really like the automobile but they are making it really hard. By my experience I have a 2006 chevrolet truck with 120,000 miles, I run 10w30 castrol, and I have never added oil to it one time. Not trying to talk bad about the japanese but it seems like the technology of foreign cars is coming to an end. I really like my automobile but all the talk I have heard before is not stacking up

b1adesofcha0s 05-24-2011 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooskey (Post 1129126)
I have a completely stock engine from japan. My first japanese sports car. Not my first japanese automobile. Had lots of toyota 4x4's. Got to say this is the first one I have had that burns oil. Not a good sign at all. As far as putting forced induction on this engine I would hesitate by all means. Not that I couldnt afford it, but just not a satisfied customer in this department. Im sure it is a good engine as long as someone looks after it and does scheduled maintenance. I would not put my wife in a nissan if it requires the oil checked every 1,000 miles. Really like the automobile but they are making it really hard. By my experience I have a 2006 chevrolet truck with 120,000 miles, I run 10w30 castrol, and I have never added oil to it one time. Not trying to talk bad about the japanese but it seems like the technology of foreign cars is coming to an end. I really like my automobile but all the talk I have heard before is not stacking up

You should get your car checked out/inspected by the dealership for oil consumption issues. That is definitely not a normal this for the Z or any other car. This is my 3rd Nissan car and I've never had any problems like that. One of them even had like 185k miles and was still running well. Definitely head to the dealership to get it looked at soon. Good luck :tup:

BGTV8 05-24-2011 04:29 AM

You are actually asking the wrong question, as the proper answer is "it depends" - mostly on the duration that Wide Open Throttle is held given a specific power setting. It can also depend upon the load generated in the mid rev-range when you go from steady state throttle setting (usually around 15-20% throttle position) to WoT, especially when revs are high enough for a FI setup to be capable of generating peak boost.

If the ignition map is not top-notch, all it will take to kill the engine is one or two "knocks" (detonation's) - you break a piston, or bend a rod which cause rod-breakage and catastrophic engine failure.

My mates at Air Power Systems reckoned on the Z33 that their TT kit was safe (their word was "durable") for ~300kw atw with stock internals. This is ~400hp atw. Since the Z34 shares a similar bottom end, I reckon this is not far away.

I am not saying that you cannot tune for higher numbers and not kill an engine, because if the car is a dyno-queen and only ever pulls numbers on the rollers, then the full load only exists for a short (small number of seconds) of time, and you can set knock control to be very conservative.

With a more aggressive ignition map, engine life at similar power levels might be milliseconds.

IMHO - the question is not valid as it needs to be more fully qualifed, as most of the later posts have indicated ... it is about "how long" you expect the engine to live.

RB

RCZ 05-24-2011 07:17 AM

Ehh, I've seen cars that knock continuosly for months before they break, so that's not that accurate.

Mr.Squeeze 05-25-2011 12:14 PM

There are few factors that go into what can considered safe whp for stock block.

1.Tune this is the most important
2.Type of fuel being used 91vs 93
3.Driving habits, this is very import most people have 400-500 whp or more and dont use it.

With everything being perfect I would have to say 500whp, but hey a bad tank of gas can kill your motor.

This motor is very good with its upgraded rods over the DE VQ from before but it still has cast pistons.

fuct 05-25-2011 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooskey (Post 1129126)
I have a completely stock engine from japan. My first japanese sports car. Not my first japanese automobile. Had lots of toyota 4x4's. Got to say this is the first one I have had that burns oil. Not a good sign at all. As far as putting forced induction on this engine I would hesitate by all means. Not that I couldnt afford it, but just not a satisfied customer in this department. Im sure it is a good engine as long as someone looks after it and does scheduled maintenance. I would not put my wife in a nissan if it requires the oil checked every 1,000 miles. Really like the automobile but they are making it really hard. By my experience I have a 2006 chevrolet truck with 120,000 miles, I run 10w30 castrol, and I have never added oil to it one time. Not trying to talk bad about the japanese but it seems like the technology of foreign cars is coming to an end. I really like my automobile but all the talk I have heard before is not stacking up

as an unhappy customer you should be telling this to nissan and get your issues worked out.

Lemers 05-25-2011 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed (Post 1128676)
yeah, I heard changing your intake filters to K&N can cause it to make so much power you will blow your motor almost immediately.

That's what Nissan will tell you as they void your warranty.

Nixlimited 05-25-2011 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemers (Post 1133120)
That's what Nissan will tell you as they void your warranty.

Haha, or at least try... The law is actually on the consumer's side to the extent that the dealership must prove that whatever they are not covering under warranty was caused directly by the modification you made. Easier said than done in a lot of cases.

Blue370tt 05-26-2011 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewYorkJon34 (Post 1126738)
The Z runs an 11:0:1 compression ratio which is not the best for forced induction of any kind. I know there are many Z owners driving around with 450-500whp but the real question is "for how long?" I personality will be upgrading to the GTM set of pistons/rods, and will feel much more comfortable about driving my car. I'm shooting for alil over 550whp.

Ok....HOW LONG DO YOU WANT????? Most of us at around 500 have been there for OVER A YEAR and no problems.

RCZ 05-26-2011 03:47 PM

how many miles? I know someone who owns his for a year and has 3500 miles on it....

Nismo370 05-26-2011 07:10 PM

I have about 5k miles on my build with 500whp.

Blue370tt 05-27-2011 11:47 AM

1 year 2 months 3200 VERY SPIRITED miles......no issues.


P.S....and 7AT.....no issues.........

Red__Zed 05-27-2011 11:49 AM

How much track time?

biggersNISMO 05-27-2011 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue370tt (Post 1136330)
1 year 2 months 3200 VERY SPIRITED miles......no issues.


P.S....and 7AT.....no issues.........

How bout you bump this thread when you hit 50k under boost with spirited driving.

Same for everyone else. Remember, drive it like you stole it. :rolleyes:

Nismo370 05-28-2011 05:18 PM

I think I'm the only TT Z owner that's drives the crap out of the car...I dont baby my car by no means...ill be the guniea pig lol.

Red__Zed 05-28-2011 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggersNISMO (Post 1136658)
How bout you bump this thread when you hit 50k under boost with spirited driving.

Same for everyone else. Remember, drive it like you stole it. :rolleyes:

50k on boost would be highly unlikely if you actually drive the car. My f20 needed rebuilding after 80 passes or so, and that was pretty solid.

biggersNISMO 05-28-2011 06:53 PM

That was my point sir. Is the price tag of enjoying your car for only 50k boosted spirited miles worth? Oneself is that judge of that.... Cheap. Fast. Reliable. Pick two

Red__Zed 05-28-2011 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biggersNISMO (Post 1138887)
That was my point sir. Is the price tag of enjoying your car for only 50k boosted spirited miles worth? Oneself is that judge of that.... Cheap. Fast. Reliable. Pick two

Meh, gotta pay to play. The stock motor probably wouldn't last much longer with constant dragging either.

biggersNISMO 05-28-2011 08:36 PM

Exactly. But most folks don't want to pay to play. That will be their demise

Blue370tt 05-29-2011 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismo370 (Post 1138747)
I think I'm the only TT Z owner that's drives the crap out of the car...I dont baby my car by no means...ill be the guniea pig lol.

I have seen quite a bit of DUMB stuff written on this forum, but this MIGHT just be the stupidest post of all. Yes, you are correct, someone puts a TT kit on their Z and DOES NOT drive it hard........facepalm!!!!

The answer for me (and I am sure many others) is that the TT kit is THE REASON to drive your car hard.

P.S. I was at an event YESTERDAY (05/28/11) that was a 100 mile cruise followed by 1/8 of a mile drag races. It was in Brainerd TN and was an official sanctioned event. The reason for the cruise portion was to try and elimanate trailer queens and keep this as a daily driver ONLY event (no big rear end gears etc.). I would have preferred the 1/4 but, I didnt make the rules.

My times ran from 7.2 to 7.9 and got proggressively better through the day. They DID NOT give us time slips but I did happen to get my slowest pass time slip. I will scan it later.

I came in 2nd overall in the import class and was beaten by a Supra putting 600 hp to the wheels. In the final heat, he ran a 7.5 to my 7.7. I think I might have been able to beat him but he was clearly a better and more expierienced driver than me (my first time at this event, HE WON IT last year as well).

Here are the times from the slip (yes my 60 ft was better but they still won):
car# R/T 60' time mph
9 (me) .000 1.729 7.948 86.90
22 .387 2.079 7.557 100.62

AGAIN....My slowest pass of the day (but the only actual slip I was given). I will scan it and post it later.

Blue370tt 05-29-2011 08:40 AM

My final thoughts on this OVERALL thread: Wow, most of you amaze me with your thoughts and comments (NOT in a good way). We are (the FI people) putting down almost DOUBLE the stock rwhp and YOU (yes you) expect our motors to hold up for the long haul????!!!!????

I went into this with MY EYES WIDE OPEN fully expecting to have some issues sooner or later. Whether its the engine, tranny, or driveline (axels, rear end, etc.) something will eventually break.

For the most part I think the majority of you are POSERS, so either GET OFF THE FENCE or move along.

P.S. This whole discussion reminds me of the 7AT beat down most of you were involved in. BTW, my 7AT is still fine and working great.

Nismo370 05-29-2011 09:00 AM

Lol the stupidest post me? Lol your very funny but this whole forced induction part of the 370z iw corny you guys don't put up no race videos no nothing. Its a freaking joke to be honest. Oh you did a couple passes whoopty doo, I did 15 passes in one day. My car has been on 3 diferent dynos with multiple pulls trust me you don't beat on your car like mines. I've done 170mph pulls, do you know how much stress you are putting on the motor in 6th gear doing that? A whole lot. There are a lot of guys on here who put F.I. on they're 370Z/G37s and baby the car, or just feel a little boost and back off it. Like I said my car sees WOT EVERYDAY!

Nismo370 05-29-2011 09:10 AM

Lol btw how are you suppose drive it hard when all you guys don't condone going over the posted speed limits? Yeah ur 7sp is holding up because you don't beat on it. If I had one I would destroy that trans already.

birdmanx1 05-29-2011 09:14 AM

blue370TT, not picking up a fight, you probably make points that make sense to you regarding the TT setup but you kinda come off angry in your posts above. That will probably take away from some valid points in your arguments and veer off the thread in a different direction. This thread is highly educational to most of us on the forum and I believe most have the right to acquire as much info (regarding what type of issues to expect) should they consider going FI at some point. What others do with their FI setup is their business not someone else's.

b1adesofcha0s 05-29-2011 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdmanx1 (Post 1139624)
blue370TT, not picking up a fight, you probably make points that make sense to you regarding the TT setup but you kinda come off angry in your posts above. That will probably take away from some valid points in your arguments and veer off the thread in a different direction. This thread is highly educational to most of us on the forum and I believe most have the right to acquire as much info (regarding what type of issues to expect) should they consider going FI at some point. What others do with their FI setup is their business not someone else's.

:iagree:

Red__Zed 05-29-2011 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismo370 (Post 1138747)
I think I'm the only TT Z owner that's drives the crap out of the car...I dont baby my car by no means...ill be the guniea pig lol.

:icon18::icon18::icon18:

Do you even track your car?

Blue370tt 05-29-2011 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismo370 (Post 1139609)
Lol the stupidest post me? Lol your very funny but this whole forced induction part of the 370z iw corny you guys don't put up no race videos no nothing. Its a freaking joke to be honest. Oh you did a couple passes whoopty doo, I did 15 passes in one day. My car has been on 3 diferent dynos with multiple pulls trust me you don't beat on your car like mines. I've done 170mph pulls, do you know how much stress you are putting on the motor in 6th gear doing that? A whole lot. There are a lot of guys on here who put F.I. on they're 370Z/G37s and baby the car, or just feel a little boost and back off it. Like I said my car sees WOT EVERYDAY!

You IS-SLOW (I mean Nismo).......< my car........and I would love to BET your car has WAY LESS dyno pulls than my car.

BTW.....I LOVE beating cars JUST LIKE yours all the time.........

Blue370tt 05-29-2011 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdmanx1 (Post 1139624)
blue370TT, not picking up a fight, you probably make points that make sense to you regarding the TT setup but you kinda come off angry in your posts above. That will probably take away from some valid points in your arguments and veer off the thread in a different direction. This thread is highly educational to most of us on the forum and I believe most have the right to acquire as much info (regarding what type of issues to expect) should they consider going FI at some point. What others do with their FI setup is their business not someone else's.

Whatever......I am tired of ALL THE ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACKS on this site! First it was YOUR 7AT CANT HANDLE FI.....then YOUR 7AT IS GOING TO BLOW.......NOW.....STOCK INTERNALS CANT HANDLE OVER 450 HP.........ALL THESE THINGS TURNED OUT TO BE NOT TRUE.........

My advice to all the nay sayers.......GET A LIFE!


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