Water/Meth injection
 

I am planning on going forced induction and plan to really look at all forms to help maintain the correct engine temps. I seen a few of these water/meth injection systems. Can people tell me there experienced with these system? Is there one that is far superior than another? Does anyone have a lot experiences with these systems? Thanks

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I really would not rely on a meth injection system to net you any power on the stock block, failsafe or not. The real gains from water/methanol injection come when you lean out the mixture and add back timing. Doing so on the stock block is only pushing it further to its ultimate failure point, past it if the methanol system has a fault.

If you're going to use it just to cool the intake charge and make a couple of hp, then it would be fine to use - no danger in doing that. But you really won't see much gain at all slapping it on. In fact, you may lose hp if it causes the mixture to become too rich.

It is to help with heat, not planning on using to find more power like most. I seen it used like racing fuel to help with heat and knock in hot conditions. Thanks for ur opinion.

I have a lot of experience with W/M inejction...

WarmandSci is correct, unless you are adding boost or timing, you will most likely lose rather than gain power, or at best break even. Although it will cool the charge, the water volume displaces both air and fuel (somewhat compensated by the concentration of methanol).

The major advantage of W/M is to quench detonation -- if you aren't detonating, you are unlikely to make any gains.

Or... if you wanted to run straight methanol, given the amount of extra fuel you burn for each lb of air, you'd make some extra power, but this would require completely revamping the fuel system and a major retune as well... stoich is 6.5:1 with meth. Also, really corrosive and toxic. And expensive.

Not worth it N/A... not always worth it even when boosted. And if you were to go that route, I'd recommend a direct port system anyway...

^^ Agreed.

In the Evo world, we usually run methanol to allow us to push 30+ psi on pump gas, and still be able to make power. I starting running methanol on my V6 turbo so I could push almost 25 psi on a GT35R. Unless you think you're going to be pushing that kind of specific output and/or boost, then it's probably not worth it. The 370Z really doesn't need a lot of boost (and in turn extra heat) to reach insane power levels.

Thanks

Used in this scenerio is a pretty good and safe way to use it. Your ECU will notice the cooler intake and adjust timing itself to a degree netting you some HP and if you run out of the mixture you dont have to worry about knocking as you didnt adjust the timing and the ECU will just re adjust itself again. This would probaly help give you back alot of lost power in the summer time due to heat soak.

Hehe, I ran 25psi on my 35R on my STI...not really surprised when it blew up :)

I've thought about meth injection to keep myself a little bit more on the safe side in florida heat. I think though that for normal everyday driving its fine without meth, then if you take it to the track, run the highest possible octane you can find.

LaterlaG's: check out my journal sometime, I'm doing what you're asking about. I'm trying to lower my engine bay / engine temps across the board too. I'm going to start working on my cooling after this week...

FYI, I did some on-dyno testing. A cooler intercooler on the Stillen kit yielded 12whp. Check out the cryO2 system from DEI. Its definitely making its way to my car in a few months...

I am in TX and my oil temps are at 220 all the time so I know my engine is way hot too. I wonder how much hp Im losing due to the engine being heat soaked? And if I ran the water/meth without adjusting timing, how much I would get back? Any ideas on this?

engine will run a little cooler because of the cooler mix. The HP you lose is because the ECU pulls timing as it detects hotter engine temps. So maybe it will help a little...but not really a noticeable difference. You still will lose HP because of the rising oil temps.

Well -- few things to keep in mind...

(1) The ECU will have no idea the intake temps are cooler unless it measures air temps post W/M jet. You'd be better off spraying post compressor (without getting into a whole other topic -- the W/M spray can damage and pit the compressor wheel if sprayed pre-) to cool the charge temps, but I'm pretty sure the ECU will have no way of knowing post-compressor temps without some sort of custom set-up...

(2) The actual degree of cooling afforded is debateable, and certainly less effective than a good intercooler. The major advantage is that a W/M mixture (even just plain water) is an excellent anti-detonant -- but again, if you aren't getting knock, you won't really see any benefits.

Much of the gains come from running more ignition advance (the idea being that previously running that much advance resulted in pinging), but you don't really have any reason to assume that you will see gains from running more timing anyway until the whole turbo system is installed and tuned. There are limits to how much advance you can run before you just aren't going to make any more torque...

Now, if you found that the compression ratio of the pistons was holding you back from running more boost or more timing, then maybe it would be worth experimenting with W/M -- I don't know that you want to start out assuming you'll need it, because you probably won't.

Also, if you add it in, now you have another system that can fail and will need monitoring...

I suspect that the limiting factor on this motor will be how much power the motor can make before busting a ringland just from cyllinder pressure, and W/M won't prevent breaking from overpower.

(3) W/M kits are nice if you have cramped space and no intercooler -- a bit overkill if you do have one. I ran one for some time on my old car (before I had an intercooler), and I did pick up some power, but this is because the ECU was definitely pulling timing. But... I probably shouldn't have pushed it so far, because eventually I broke a piston and had to do a rebuild :icon14:

Live and learn.

I say, get the turbo on there, tune it, and then decide. If this is your DD, you may not want to push it to the ragged edge anyway, which is the other nice thing about W/M -- if you do push it close to the limit, it acts as a good failsafe for a sketchy tune (unless of course a water jet clogs or you run out of mixture...)

If you want to read more about W/M, check out this link -- cool stuff, with a long and interesting history waterinjection.info - Powered by vBulletin

Anyway, it might be less of a hassle to develop a "track tune" using, say, 100 AKI octane fuel and a "street tune" that is a little more forgiving for 91 or 93. Fewer surprises that way.

I can't say for 100% certainty without you being on a dyno, but my guess is -- none. You probably won't see any appreciable loss in whp until you creep up to 230 - 240.

Also, there's no reason to assume the engine is pulling timing unless you see it on a datalog. It probably doesn't do that until oil temps approach 280, which can get a bit risky at full tilt for sustained periods of time.

Thanks for the help

Will do!

So it would not be worth it to buy a kit??

I don't know either? It is really hot here in Ok & TX and in three weeks I will going back to the track. I will see how the car handles the heat. If my 1/3 mix race fuel/ 91 doesn't cut it, i will probably consider this. Plus race fuel is really expensive. Long term could be much cheaper.

For what you'll spend on the kit and methanol to mix wit hdistilled water, if it's just for track days, I'd say just fill up with 100 octane on those days.

Guys, go back and re-read my last post on W/M and also click on the link I posted -- there's a lot to learn if you want to experiemnt with it. You can't just slap it on and call it a day.

Will do, thanks

There's no replacement for octane! :D

Just run a slightly richer tune and higher octane fuel, and you will be just as well off as a with a complicated W/M system.

Chris, We will have to do some data logging at the track. It will be interesting now that the car will be supercharged and it fricken hot out

We've already addressed oil temps, now we need to work on the cooling system!

:iagree:

Yes, they are correct. Water/Meth injection really should be reserved for race applications. it is not easy to tune with this sytem and if you go to use for cooling effect only you will find youself down on power. Not worth the money.'

You already have the the oil cooler so you should be good to go. If your at the track dump ice in your inter cooler between sessions. Otherwise on the street it will opeate well with reasonable temps.

car is pretty much a track and it will eventually be a complete car, gutted and caged. Plan to boost hard so just exploring ideas I have seen to help with engine heat

Dial everything else in first. Honestly, if everything is tuned to the limit, there may be no more power to be made.

Before I had an intercooler on my supercharged 2ZZ, I picked up 15 whp with W/M direct port injection -- but I was overdriving the blower and had no IC, so I desperately needed some cooling at that point! Moroever, the ECU was pulling some timing. The W/M fixed all of that.

I had a nice coolingmist progressive controller with a W/M injector ported into each intake runner -- worked great!

However, after I had an A2W IC installed, the W/M made absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in power. We experimented for an hour with the tune on the dyno, and it just diidn't matter -- timing was optimal, and adding timing yielded no extra torque. I would have uninstalled it and sold it off a that point, but it was too much of a PITA, so I left it on as a safety measure as it wasn't hurting anything :rolleyes:

If you were non-intercooled, I'd be more of an advocate for it. If you are intercooled, you probably won't need it.

In fact, I'd say the time and money would be better spent upgrading your IC components -- is it A2A or A2W (I recommend the latter, although the former can work well too)? If A2W, you could upgrade the pump or add another heat exchanger to further cool things down -- or as one person noted, you can get a larger reservior and pack it with ice for track days!

Also, what kind of track are we talking about? Road course, drag strip, autocross???

Does Oklahoma have access to 93 octane? What oil cooler are you using?

Since Chris is going to be doing the tuning for you, you might consider having two maps, one on pump gas for the street, and one a bit more aggressive but with 100 octane for the track...You could take advantage of the UPrev multiple map features and just change out the map when you're at the track. This is something that we've talked about but for various reasons we aren't able to offer the CARB legal, warrantied kit as an adjustable kit.

Nope, we have the same craptastic 91 that you guys do. We had 93 up until around 2006 though.

We do have a few stations that carry E85 though :)

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

You guys have an A2W kit, right? How efficient is the current set-up? What are post charge temps looking like?

The OP should definitely have an air-temp guage installed, ideally pre and post charge, but even just post would be incredibly informative.

Not worth it on a Z with FI unless you intend to use high boost , lots of timing, which generally the 'average' end user here will not do.
Having said that I would go with an aquamist kit if buying one.

I have asked it before but still have not seen on this forum, does anyone have any EGT data from a boosted Z?

Personally like my sig, E85 would be a better option then a meth kit for thoose wanting big boost and aggressive timing, but both have there limiting factors and pros/cons.

I hate 91 octane with a passion! It's amazing how crappy it really is.

Question for those people in Florida and other parts of the country that get 93...What is the cost of the 93 octane in your areas?

Does anyone know why CA is limited to 91?

We have found that the air to water intercooler is EXTREMELY efficient. As you can imagine dyno pulls put a lot of heat into the system and one of the quickest and simplest examples of an efficient intercooler is how long it takes for the car to cool back down after a hard pull. For example, we have been doing a lot of supercharger installs and custom tuning with the new Camaro's. Those cars are TERRIBLE on heat soak. We will do a pull, then have time to actually get out of the car, walk to the computer, get back in the car, keep on waiting...It's insane before the temperature actually comes back down. With our 370Z and G37 we can do pull after pull after pull with very little down time between runs.

Also, during our development we did insert temperature probes post blower and post intercooler (in some of the prototype/testing photos you will see the yellow wires.) We saw decreases in temperature of well over 100 degrees and at idle the IAT's were within a couple degrees of ambient if I remember correctly.

If stillen still plans to offer pulley options for more power. I know myself and will eventually get that larger horse power pulley. With all that added heat, the oklahoma heat, black car, hot tarmack. I am sure I will need to upgrade the raidator/A2W intercooler to make the heat is being handled. I plan to add a vented hood help with air flow through the engine bay. I am just trying to get a feel since I have seen it and they said they like and it works great. my car mostly drives on the track. It is not a DD and will never be one. I appreciate all your guys input and opinions on this topic. thanks

Bear with me because this is going to sound like a big sales pitch and I apologize in advance for that, however, I hope that by the time I'm done you will see exactly what I'm saying and recognize that this is only intended to offer information and be helpful instead of just sell our wares.

1) Additional cooling: As everyone knows additional cooling is going to be extremely important on these cars and we have a few ideas on how to solve this.

STILLEN Front fascia- As it has already been mentioned the STILLEN front fascia increases the front grill opening substantially and also offers additional openings for accessory coolers such as oil coolers. On our car, we're running the STILLEN race cooler and the STILLEN street cooler! I have flogged the crap out of that car and it is very hard to overheat the engine oil with this setup! Basically, we retain the standard mounting location of the race cooler and the secondary oil cooler mounts on the drivers side vent opening. You will want to cut holes in your fender liners to allow the heat to escape after going through the cooler but that is very easy to do. On the driver's side vent opening we plan on fabricating a secondary heat exchanger as well. So the coolant for the intercooler will travel through the main heat exchanger mounted out front, then through the secondary cooler mounted in the fascia opening, then back up to the manifold. Again, you will need/want to cut some holes in the fenders to allow the hot air to vent out but that's really simple.

2) Secondary cooling solutions: When I get a chance (it will take awhile) I am hoping to develop a system that will cool the coolant down without any input from the driver. It should be pretty simple and if done correctly will work very well. My only concern is that it might not be cheap. My estimated price is around a grand but I'm not 100% sure about that yet...Could be more, could be less...Won't know until it's completed.

We definitely plan on offering upgrades for the supercharger system. Some will be minor and some will be major but we do plan on continuing to push the capabilities of this system!

Great info and thanks. Chris and I will keep an eye for it and we have some plans to counter the heat that I know I will be generating. My car only has one position WOT so heat is a major concern for me. Interested in all these cooling feature and I am considering the fasia.

^ Cool.

I am interested in that extra cooler for the IC core too. Thinking about fans for both the IC and the oil cooler as well as the O2 Sprayer.

Can you give us a little more info about your second point?

:iagree:

Do you guys have logs of that -- it would be good to see exactly what charge temps were before and after the IC, especially after sucessive dyno pulls. Not disputing that the cooler is working, just wondering whether there's room for improvement with another heat exchanger. People who will be doing hotlaps might want that as an option...

I would have been surprised if IAT's were much above ambient... It's not boosting at idle, and the water is still pulling heat out of the system... was this finding unexpected? :confused:

Also, how many gpm does your water pump flow?

Last question: Any chance you guys will be developing a roots blower kit like you did for the 350? :excited:

Yeah, you could always add some puller fans too. Not a bad idea if you plan on tracking it.

We have 91 exclusively in Utah because of our elevation. Being 4500+ ft up, we can get away with it since all engines up here have greater detonation resistance with the lower air density.

For California, I think it has something to do with a combination of the oil companies and CARB regulations. Apparently it's pretty difficult to make a 93 octane gasoline that meets all of your emissions requirements (including oxygenation). Only one company - Unocal - had a process to produce a 92 octane fuel for California's most recent requirements. Unocal is apparently defunct now, so nobody is licensing that process any more. Cost is the major factor, however. The price of 93 would be just that much more on top of your already outrageous gas prices.

This is just paraphrased on what I knew before and what I just read... could just be conjecture on somebody's behalf, but it sounds logical. :tup: