Nissan motorsports HR head convertion
 

I was looking at that "Project 370Z" FB campaign Nissan is doing.

Im interested in that HR head conversion they have as option 1.

Anyone know more details about it ? Or even better have done it ?

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...25545675_n.jpg

I guess that's a no.

I get the sense that no one has done that because the VVEL heads on the Z are an efficiency improvement for a daily driven car. That conversion seems to be intended for all-out power.

this could be interesting, I didnt realize that was possible.

I would vote for the N/A option simply because of the current easy availability of HR heads, I'd love to see the potential! I wonder how they would sort out the electronics though with the deletion of the VVEL heads.

:iagree:
That would be a great option to get a good power bump for FI applications. Heck, it may even prove to be worthwild for the NA track junkies as well! Maybe GTM or F.I. can chime in on this!

Look here for all the details ..

NISMO | VQ35DE Engine Parts

The heads were used on the NISMO RS380 Type C - the 350Z JDM race car in Japan.

I'm still trying to get to the bottom of the engine spec used in the PlayStation GT4 370Z's that ran in the Dubai 24-hour recently, but I suspect these engines either have these heads (the Spec 2) or they are fitted with 370Z heads that have been modified to remove the VVEL arrangement.

My guess is the reference at the top of this post is to the NISMO heads which will flow to 440hp (but the standard inlet manifolding only runs to 420hp - to get 440HP you need a modified inlet manifold).

I have a set of 6 x 52mm throttle bodies that we've dummied up to a HR head off a 350Z engine that was detonated a few years ago, and we are playing with airflow (valves sizes, angles etc) to se how much flow we can get (NA-only). The manifold is built up from Ali plate and tube but is internally polished ...

interesting...

Sub'd

Sounds counter productive to me.

Any of you guys looking to toss out your VHR heads, send them my way.

Im one of them that is thinking about the swap .
I have an HR engine waiting to have its head removed !!!
but I do not know what need to be done for the swap , so im waiting for a guy to provide me the info needed !
if sucessful , I probably wont need the vhr head anymore ...

wont be completed in 2012 though...

About time someone take this route.

How?

VVEL is BOSS

:icon17:

How is it productive?

This is the AM Performance 370z Nissan refers to on Facebook. It has the HR heads...

AM Performance 370Z Grand Am Race Car on the Street - YouTube

Well, a car may have done it, but that doesn't mean it's best, especially without knowing any reasons why they chose to. For all I know, the VVEL isn't legal in their race class? Or maybe their engine management system couldn't control it anyway so why have the extra moving parts floating around.

Continuously variable timing and lift on the valves is superior to static valve events or merely cvt. Unless there have been examples of mechanical issues with the VVEL at the engine speeds required to produce 400hp NA, then it would require some test data/explanation to come to the conclusion that removing the VVEL has any benefit. I see no reason to just assume that simply because one car has done it, without some sort of case study.

What ever happened to the thread he had going on that Nismo Racecar? Seems by facebook and here AM performance fell off?

"Because racecar"

interesting.... sub'd

I wish we had more info on that AM performance car.

I kind of take it as a bad sign that we don't have additional information. They filmed a few youtube videos last year and sounded as if they were ready to go mainstream, that was last year and we haven't heard a peep. I guess the heads conversion didn't out as good as they hoped.

Sounds like a lot of work for marginally better flow...

tuning the VVEL -- even with a new cam grind -- would probably work out better and be easier to do.

whos to say that the VVEL even needs any tuning for NA applications? If my assumptions are correct, its probably already on a closed loop feedback system for peek volumetric efficiency for the given RPM and load. If thats the case, I dont think there is much room to gain anything from it for NA other than perhaps a more aggressive exhaust cam. Unforunately we do not have a lot of solid information into its calibration or decision making process... however it sure as hell seems downright effective if you compare power and performance to DE's and HR's. Also consider this... bolt on mod combos are making 30-40 HP over stock on the dyno. That means the engine is up to 370+ HP with bolt-ons. That is acheiving 100hp per liter or more, at only 7500 RPM redline, with outstanding powerband and driveability... while being able to achieve ULEV status. Thats is a greatly efficient engine and at decently low RPM to be able to make such HP/displacement.

This is why it is rather unclear to me why people are so excited to either ditch VVEL or attempt to take control over it... it really appears to be doing quite well, and I would need to see some real proven data on where it is falling short before I would even think of screwing with it.

:iagree:

I wonder why Nissan even had the HR head conversion as a option in "Project 370" if it is such an unproven mod ?

It remains unknown... as you noted we don't have enough hard data on its range of operation -- BUT, we do know that the max lift within the programming appears to be well below what the valves are physically capable of achieving. Whether or not that will make more power is an empirical, and largely unexplored, question.

When you don't know the degree to which it can adapt, you can't know whether or not it's optimized for best power on all set-ups.

Even if it "learns", if it works similar to fuel trims, we all know that no ECU can "self-tune" as well as a human who can test variations on the factory tune on a dyno.

In the end, it presumably has some fixed targets, and operates in a closed loop around them by creating transient modifiers (i.e., "trims").

Is it optimized for best power? Who knows? It remains a black box for the most part.

I understand all of the back and forth on "is it worth it or not" but at the same time I think I am a little confused on what Nissan is saying.

If Nissan themselves is stating that you can swap the heads for cams to get a more aggressive setup, wouldnt that statement in itself tell you that Nissan knows there are limitations with the VVEL?

I mean just doing a little bit of reading between the lines, it seems as if they know there is a limitation and that swapping the heads to allow for cams is the fix to that. I dont understand why Nissan would tell Nissan Factory Supported race teams that it would be beneficial to swap the heads out if it wasnt...

I think youre actually reading too deep into some marketing project.

As for the Nissan Motorsports HR Head conversion... is that even an actual viable product that you can puchase from "nissan motorsports"? If so, anyone have a link to where "nissan motorsports" mentions this "product"?

For some folks, TT is not an option as FI renders the vehicle ineligible for competition.

For me, CAMS Group 2B has lots of freedoms, BUT it does not permit FI where no FI option existed from the OEM.

Therefore, my options are limited to VQ block and heads. The challenge is to come up with an engine spec that generates max power conistent with the constraints in the regulations, and with reasonable engine life (say 30 hours between rebuilds).

I have been researchning this for at least 12 months on the basis that my DD will go on a huge diet and get a serious dose of steriods and a full CrMo cage when it comes off lease in a bit over 12 months. My current race car is no longer competetive in its class since it is based on a 1970-donor vehicle and apart from going down the 997 or 998 GT3/RSR or maybe Corvette route, a home-grown special is one of the few alternatives for Production Sports Cars in this country.

The basic parameters are ready-to-race without driver weight as close to 1100kg as I can, and around 380-400 ft/lbs of torque between 5000-7500rpm and fully adjustable suspension will just about cut it - we are allowed a total of 44" of wheel width and I know I can fit 10.5 and 11.5 (or 11" if square) wheels under the front and rear wheel arches without major body modifications (a bit of guard rolling will get the job done). We are allowed to move suspension pivot points radially not more than 50mm from the OEM pickup points, and I have already done to SusProg design for suspension and steering angles. Aero is a problem I have not yet solved either, but RMIT in my home town has soem really bright people who work with Formula SAE so thats a solveable problem ....

However, no-one has the spec's on a NA VQ head/cam/piston/rod/crank that will deliver the torque and engine life I'm looking for - and I have done enough with the old Buick 215 cu V8 in the past 30 years to understand how expensive getting to 400 ft/lbs of torque can be.

RJN in the UK have lots of VQ experience - but they are in Europe and I'm in the Antipodes ... so I continue my research and weigh up the pro's and con's of a roll-your-own solution here, or spend mega-Euro's and buy-in an engine.

I like the idea of a roll-your own solution, BUT I'm painfully aware of the cost of research - having suffered the odd catastrophic engine failure in the past when we did not quite get it right.

Bottom line is that this thread is not productive if you can use the FI route .... there is a VQ35 in a 300ZX that runs Super Lap in Sydney (the Unique AutoSports car) which has to make 800 hp given the single lap laptimes it pulls out - but that option is not availale to me for my category ... which is the only thing that makes it productive.

The VVEL heads produce too much heat for long races and I'm not sure how well they keep up past 8k rpm.

A.M. Performance is sitting out this season to move shop up to Washington state. They're not dead yet!

damn stupid fan boys that chose the Greddy TT for the project. Would really have liked to seen the NA option picked. At least we would get more info that way.

There's a guy building a 3.7HR...

Would have been nice to see what Nissan would have done NA

link? please :tiphat:

Awesome... Thanks for that.

3.7L HR Grand AM Engine
 

the reasoning behind swapping HR heads in place of VHR heads came down to the fact that noone knows how to properly control the VVEL to do what was required from the power angle.

HR heads bolt right on, no voodoo required.

look closely at the pic on page 2 and you see Veronica. 4 cam phase control, and this engine made right at 400WHP in it's final configuration.

if you guys are really interested in the dirty details, PM me.

as far as finding this engine in a catalog or being able to order from Nissan... Grand AM rules state that any part used on a car must be available to anyone else on the grid or the public. this is to theoretically prevent cheating by using one off or exotic parts. noone wants to invest the kind of time required in development of parts and then have to share them with the world, so this is a simple way of trying to control costs. that being said, this does not mean that you can call nissan and simply order the parts.

-n-