Help! Cams, heads, boost and a million questions in my head
 

So I got a killer deal on a set of heads on Facebook. This was not planned. The guy had this on a built motor running a lot of boost.

They came with custom ground tomei cams Installed. Specs are 280° duration and 11.5 lift, and it comes with upgraded valve springs ( Super Tech Dual valve springs). Cams and valve springs are installed, I just need to swap the heads.

I have the RJM billet gears ready to install
I have an ATI damper ready to install
I have Z1 headers ready to install
I have a ported upper, lower, and ported throttle bodies Installed
I'm also running Z1 intakes and dual 2.5 CBE. (Switching from AAM to F.I.)

I'm certain I'm going to max the injectors and pump. So yeah... i will need larger ones. Turbos are at least a year away, so what can I run that will support E85, and headroom for boost in the future without getting too large? I plan on staying in the 600 range when I do boost.

What can the stock rotating assembly handle safely with the heads, billet oil pump gears, and and ATI damper Installed? The seller told me the heads can handle 9k+rpm. Now I don't feel comfy spinning VVEL that high lol, what are your thoughts?

Do you think the Z1 intakes will become a restriction point? They're 2.5". I can do those super sized filters, but the piping stays the same.

Would it be wise to upgrade the head studs while they're off?

This will most likely be the last of the NA mods I'll be adding. I haven't returned the car with the ported parts and she was making 327/270 STD. I'll most likely have to do this in stages due to costs. Add the headers, retune, then do the rest later...

I know I kinda just threw this out there, I'm hoping you guys out there with more experience than myself can chime in. I'm not expecting otherworldly gains, but it would be fun to finally see some more results for our NA brethren.

If I was doing this, I'd upgrade the head studs while it's apart. $ wise, it makes good sense. All the V8's I've done either went with studs or at the very least, upgraded the bolts.

I would think the Z1 intakes would be fine, I don't recall seeing anyone here running larger intake piping, but TBH, I've not looked real close.

When you say 'what can the stock rotating assembly handle', do you mean RPM or HP? If you are planning on running the motor around 7-8k all the time, then you need to make sure everything is balanced, otherwise, motor go boom.... :p
HP wise, IIRC the stock internals can handle up to 600 hp, give or take. Again, if you are planning to run 600+ hp, it's worth the peace of mind to do the lower end work at the same time. :twocents:




The other option is to pick up another engine, build the whole thing for the HP/torque range you are planning to run and use the new heads on that one. That way, you can do it in stages, then swap it in with TT's attached. Just another thought.



Either way, GL. I'm interested to see how it all comes together. :tup:

It was more a question of how much rpm which you answered :) I know they're internally balanced from the factory, but idk to what degree. It's not planned for a track only car, so it won't be living life above 8k rpm daily, just an occasional romp and track day.

Keep in mind that higher rev's are far more stressful on the motor than boost is. When you go TT your tuner will likely back your rev limit off compared to what you are able to do NA - and you can easily hit 600 whp on boost without revving very high...

With that in mind and costs being a factor - installing a bunch of rev-related upgrades may not provide the bang-for-your-buck when you add boost... Just a thought, as I would still rather you do it all so I can see the results =)

To answer your fueling question - a return setup with an Aeromotive 340 and 1000cc injectors should get you to 600whp on E85... I am sure some of the E85 guys on here can chime in and confirm or correct. You could also consult phunk he will know 100%.

The oem crank can handle 9k. I would contact onpoint dyno. Sasha was using a 370z oem crank when revving to to 9k. Head studs like it was stated above. You might want to look into bryant racing billet cranks to higher revs, yes it will cost some change, but you're already dumping retards amounts of money into the car, and you're already talking about boosting it down the road.

If I'm gonna be looking at cranks, I'd be looking at a displacement increase too lol, and that would be bad arse

Just noticed you are in Tampa....

When you hit the low point in this build ("This was a stupid idea and I wish I just bought a Prius. I hate cars".... as is customary with any build worth a damn ;) ) and you need someone to stop by and get all excited about the upgrades hit me up.. I'd love to come check it out!

I'd offer to help.... but I'm lazy. =) :ughdance:

LOL, I come home late next month :) I'll look you up. This is Z #2, I know about pain and headaches. My last car was a wonderful nightmare

Agreed on the Aero 340 (e85 ready out of the box) 1000cc injectors and return. Hit up Charles (CJM) and he'll take care of you, both in terms of product and professional advice. Great guy to deal with.

If you're doing all that it is probably worthwhile to just go with his hat. In which case a Walbro 485 will future-proof you even more. It's only like $20 more, but it is big so don't plan on using it without the CJ hat unless you want to carve your OEM basket assembly like a thanksgiving turkey.

The new ID1050 are e85 compatible as well.

Inline filter and possibly regular would be necessary at that point.

I skipped the hat and stuck with Aero 340 but I'm shooting for 500whp not 600. In the middle of my tune right now so will have a better idea of my duty cycles in the coming week or so once the weathers martens up.

You're probably going to be running 2.75" piping with the turbo setup so 70mm throttle bodies would match up perfectly. I've considered going to a 3" charge pipe and 75mm TBs but going to play that by ear for now.

Are those headers long tube, or you need a down pipe with them as well? What's your current exhaust setup.

A lot of the K plus guys aren't running larger displacements, or rather they were and went back down to 3.7 (or 3.8 respectively for GTRs). The reasoning for this however I don't recall offhand.

I have Z1 headers and F.I. RTP otw. Exhaust is F.I. with 12" resonators, CF cans and those purty prismatic tips.

I'll definitely talk to Charles about fueling, he's outstanding, I'm just guesstimating the splash damage if you will.

I was only looking at a displacement bump from an NA standpoint, not boost, but yeah, it is fairly unnecessary with turbos.

I appreciate the helpful tips from everyone.

Displacement bump will cause more heat. I don't know how much of that will effect since you dont have a long commute to work. You could bump the compression up, that would help since you have head work and a larger cam.

Ive built several N/A V8 engines that produce over 1000 hp.

If all your goodies noted were my stuff, i would install the heads and cams as is, with ARP studs. I would consider Cometic head gaskets too if they are an option. I would try to determine if piston to valve clearance is a concern while Im at it.

Install your headers, intake and stuff, and then go right to the dyno with the fuel you intend to run.

I would then tune the fuel system - pumps and injectors to support what the engines needs to make good power. A couple of easy dyno pulls will tell you if your current fuel system will support.

Just because the valvetrain will go 9,900 RPM doesnt mean the motor will make power up there. So, I tune my engines to produce the highest flattest torque curve possible. Based on that curve, I then decide what RPM range I will operate the engine at. Tires, gears etc are then based on that.

Torque moves the mass of your vehicle, HP is just a numerical result.

If you dont dyno tune it, then there is just alot of guessing to do, and usually time and money wasted.

We will have the highest horsepower NA Z's with vvel heads in fl within the next year! Firehawk

I would sure like to know more about the work done on the heads. Porting? Valve sizes? flow numbers? Who did the work..etc.

Im a NA guy myself, so very Im very interested in this thread!

There may be some good power to be had - in just the head work.

I would like to know as well. Wonder what kind of power he will put down with built heads and oem bottom end. My guess should put him around 360-380. If he puts that down, i should easily hit 400 with my NA build. Finger crossed for Firehawk

From what I understand, just valve springs and cams. Unless I was made of money, it would be difficult for me to take it all apart, port it, and put it all back together.

I most likely won't bump displacement considering the fact it's getting boosted down the road.

I understand what you're saying in terms of spinning the engine. My goal isn't to just spin it to the moon arbitrarily. I don't remember the formula, but you can determine your torque multiplication factor from one gear to the next to see at what rpm it's best to shift.

I'm certain that whatever rpm that is will be higher than before. Martin is a great tuner in my back yard, so he will most likely be handling the tuning aspect. I just dont like running in blind and run around ignorant during the process :)

Headers and retune are next as I plan how best to take the follow on steps. All the intake, exhaust, ported manifolds and TB's are already installed, just need retuned after Elmo and I get them on.

I think when I was digging around at one time to see flow numbers of the head they were somewhere in the mid 300cfm range which is pretty dang impressive, which is probably why you don't see anyone doing port and polish jobs on these heads. Sorta like the Honda heads that are really hard to get gains and usually when you get in cfm you lose velocity and that sucks.

I would not recommend the Aeromotive 340. I had fuel cuts running this pump and resolved the issue with the Walbro 450 pump. Also running 1000cc injectors (630-650whp).

Alright, I know I'm missing something; things I still need to buy, minus small things...

Arp L19 head studs
New head gaskets (OEM?)
Call Phunk for fueling (E85 compatible rated at 600-700whp [future F.I. req])
Spend $$$ for install (I can hear my wallet crying)

... it just hit me, but I'm most likely going to need a new flywheel unless I want to see it self destruct. Might as well do the clutch at that point.

I didn't plan on tinkering with the bottom end unless absolutely necessary... Just concerned about the main bearings. It's a street car, so it's life will mostly be spent in traffic with some spirited driving. She will see the occasional drag strip and track day.

I have everything else covered.
ATI damper, oil pump gears, Z1 headers, ported TB's and manifolds, normal bolt ons, tuning...

The perfectionist in me wants to port the heads, but my wallet tells me it's foolish, considering they're all put together and won't be worth much more than a few hp lol. And that leads to a slippery slope of financial pain. Because then I'm going to want the EPS TB's, port them, upgrade the intakes to 2.75"-3", and more dumb, expensive stuff that's just a tiny bit better than what I have.

I'll update my journal when I get back stateside next month and have actual pictures to post.

I've enjoyed reading and re-reading your build thread on your amazing twin SC Z #1. If you don't mind me asking, what made it a nightmare, and what considerations made you decide to go TT? Thanks!

There always seemed to be a reason why the car was down on power, not by a little bit, but by 150+hp down. First it was the pulleys, then it was the bypass valves, then the stock tensioner pulleys went out. The AC compressor started acting up. I had gotten most of it fixed, but then when I got a decent asking price, I decided to go for it and learn from that. Money was tight and it allowed me to reduce the running costs until times were better.

Turbos on this platform have gotten to a point where it's mature and a reliable way to make power. To do the same with a supercharged kit, it's unknown territory at over 580whp. The Z doesn't need 500lbft of torque and centrifugal superchargers did great at keeping torque from reaching stupid levels. I would seriously consider supercharging again if it could take this car to turbo hp levels (600-650whp). Idk, honestly, it might be the better way to go. I'll cross that bridge when I get there lol.

Thats actually what i have...the bryant racing stroker kit. Im so excited about seeing what kind of numbers this thing makes. I saw brians post on Facebook. You got a hell of a deal. I wish to god he would have decided to part out a couple months ago it could have saved me a crap ton of money. Good luck with your build man im excited for you