It make any sense to just upgrade rotors?
 

Noob question:
I was looking through some members pictures and I saw minicobra replaced his rotors with StopTek but kept his stock calipers and all. Overall its a pretty cheap mod and I think slotted or drilled rotors look pretty sick, but is there any advantage to just doing the rotors and nothing else?
I dont track the car, but plan on doing the occasional AutoX.

Yes. The stock calipers are nice for street, autoX, and even light track use. Rotors, pads, brake lines, and fluid make for a nice upgrade.

I am getting close to replacing the rotors... will probably go with some slotted 1pcs and upgrade the lines/fluid while I'm at it.

kielbasa, where are those intake pics? :stirthepot:

:iagree: :icon17:;):tup:

I did install the StopTech 1-piece rotors. There isn't much value to doing it aside from looks, they are the same weight as stock and have similar metallurgy. But if you are due to replace rotors anyway then it is a good OEM replacement.

I'm glad to see some people say that slotted/drilled rotors are mostly an appearance upgrade. So many people on other forums claim the slotted or drilled rotors make drastic improvement to your braking capability.

how are the stoptech rotor at dealing with rust? the stock ones get rusty as hell

Caravan, the intake pics are all up in my journal thread: mag black kielbasa it's called.

I also posted one of the pictures in the exterior section: show me what's under your hood thread today.

I'm not sure if I ever repped you for a great transaction experience so here you go!

As for the girl, I've been single for almost a month now, as per my decision. Also, I have more cash for parts hahahaha

Mine stock ones were fine when I took them off, the StopTechs are plated and so hold up fairly well. There was a hint of rust inside the veins but other than that pretty much rust free. If you drive in the winter they will rust regardless thanks to the salt accelerating the oxidation.

Im a noob as well but arent the slotted/drilled rotors for cooling the brakes? it increases the heat release on the brakes.

rotors with slotted/drilled while braking at high speeds imagine this on a regular stock rotor that dose not release heat that equals :owned:
http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-...rotors-500.jpg

Slotted provides no extra cooling, while drilled only provides a little bit of extra cooling. The picture above shows glowing carbon/carbon brakes -- which are totally different to cast iron.

The benefits to cross-drilling and/or slotting are related to initial 'pad bite' at higher speeds. If staying with the OE calipers, the best solution for better bite today is the J-Hook face pattern. These provide the bite of cross-drilling without the concern of premature cracking if used on the track.

http://www.the370z.com/694313-post1.html

The other things to do at the same time are better pads, stainless steel brake lines and fluid.

Chris

also you cant turn a set of slotted/cross drilled rotors if you are doing a basic pad install. or thats what O'Reilleys recently told me.....

How much does it cost to change the pads on the sport version, anyone have an idea? Do the fronts or rears usually wear out faster? About the same?

it takes 15 min to change it. i did 120 autox runs, pads have very little wear

O'Rielly may not be able to turn drilled/slotted rotors (plus it would eat into their sales if they did), but a qualified machinist certainly can. We do it without any issues at all.

Chris

haha i figured that! thx Chris

Unless you are going for looks, it is a waste of money. The OEM are 14" big, that's a big enough heatsink for most uses and moderate track days.

Hey Chris, can your 2-piece rotors be turned on a standard brake lathe? I've don't have any scoring but I've got some heavy vibration as they heat up so I was suspecting either uneven deposits or problem with the mounting hardware. I also toasted a set of DS3000's, started to de-laminate from the backing plate. Brake ducts anyone?

There are a lot of different brake lathes out there, so I'm not sure what you mean by 'standard'. If is is a good, stiff machine with enough swing for the rotor in question (we currently use up to 410mm/16" discs), then it is possible to do the job properly.

If you're cooking DS3000's, cooling should definitely be looked at. Also, consider the Mintex F3R compound, which is a current favorite in NASCAR and a few other series brutal on brakes. It is very linear, with outstanding feedback a quick release. It's good up to 2000°F, so no worries there! These will be in stock at STILLEN tomorrow (FedEx permitting). As always, scuff the rotor surface with a Flex-Hone or Scotch-Brite before bedding in a new compound.

Chris

Just because a rotor's outside diameter measures 14" doesn't mean there is enough heat capacity or the right type of heat dams and internal air flow for very spirited driving. There is a lot more to proper brake systems than a few numbers. And, one-piece rotors have limitations that are overcome with a properly designed 2-piece disc assembly.

The OP stated he is planning on auto-X use. DBA and STILLEN are working on a 2-piece rotor assembly for the Sport/Akebono calipers that will suit his needs -- until he becomes much more sensitive to threshold braking. At that point, only a full upgrade to better calipers will fit the bill. Simply put, the OE calipers do not have the feel or feedback that the AP Racing calipers do. Whether or not that cost is justifiable is up to him and no one else.

Chris

I don't know what kind of driving you are doing, but you are not going to burn up any brakes unless you are doing endurance racing or downhill racing. (make sure you do change pads and fluid).

I can do VIR all day from 131mph to 45mph with no problem 10 minute straight. Even after 10 minutes, I can still go at a relatively quick pace simply by backing off 100 feet early. This is all done with a stock car with just fluids and brake pads change. After 160 track miles (over 3 days), the rotors look brand new and the pads only have about 1/4 wear on it. Heck, I even have a picture of my stock pads after 120 autox runs. It looks brand new before the track day. Corvette with 400+HP runs on rotors that are smaller and calipers that are smaller, yet they can handle the same from 140mph with a simple swap in brake pads. Rotors are just heat sinks, you can easily overcome it by getting pads that can handle the heat.

I understand you are trying to sell a product, but this is unnecessary for a non dedicated track car. It is a waste of money.

Car and Driver tested their Nismo 370z, their max speed was 127mph. I am a non professional driver in a regular 370z. I can hit 131mph in the same spot. I assume I am doing it because I have slightly better street tires and brake pads, I don't have no fancy two piece rotor or 18 extra HP. I did the same thing in a Corvette, makes no difference. Most people in autox go with smaller rotors to save weight, you rarely go over 70 or 80mph in it!

Thanks Chris, I'll research the surrounding shops to see what equipment they have.

The pads seemed to bed correctly, I followed the manufacturers instructions. They were great for 2 sessions, good bite, good release, but after that shudder got progressively worse. The hotter they got the worse the shudder got, seemed like the rotor wasn't expanding evenly on the hat. Definitely need a good cooling solution, I wish Stillen had their kit finished. The home brew method is okay but not ideal.

Only a waste of money if one is OK with backing off early only 10 minutes into a session AND don't notice the difference in brake feel. Configuring proper brake systems is more than just about heat capacity, which in and of itself is significant. Once you have been at the limit with proper brakes, the OE stuff no longer stacks up. In the end, it's the buyers opinion that counts.

In your particular case with the pad wear you have indicated, upgrading the OE brake system further than you already have would make little sense. However, for people looking for faster lap times, brakes are always up for consideration.

In my years working in professional motorsports, nearly all passing was done in the braking zone. A LOT of time is spent on how the car performs under braking to give the driver the maximum confidence to dive underneath the car he is aiming to overtake while remaining (mostly) under control. Once you have driven a system designed with that sort of performance in mind, it is very difficult going back to a budget OE system. When I say budget system, I mean pretty much any car under about $90k on the market today. Even the mighty GT-R gets needs a little help from the aftermarket when piloted by a serious track enthusiast.

Chris

Once you have a handle on rotor temps, pad selection will become a bit easier. It does sound like you might be right on the upper edge of the envelope with the DS3000's (MOT = 1200°F). This is the lowest temp track pad from Ferodo which is suitable for some tracks, but not those with several heavy braking zones and a skilled driver.

Chris

Stillen was out of temp paint so I'm not sure what I was hitting exactly. I do know that the rotors were still at 600°F in the pits after a cool down lap and a long drive through the pits, not sure how quickly they cool down.

I will have the temp paint and some different pads to try for the next event. I'm just hoping that the rotor ring is still serviceable as it doesn't have a ton of heavy track miles on it yet. The brakes always had a rock solid feel even when I was getting front pad fade in the extended sessions. Given that this was open track some drivers with prepped cars were staying out for up to 90 minutes, I never exceed 25-30 at a time. I also boiled over the power steering fluid despite the Stillen PS cooler, but that was my fault for filling to max instead of min.

Your car doesn't stop any quicker by changing just rotors unless your brakes are over its operating temperature. In the case of the Z and most relatively stock vehicle, you won't go over that by changing pads and fluids (not in the short time we can be out anyway). If you are so intend on running the stock pads, you MIGHT be able to get away by using tons of ducts and rotors. The question is, is it worth it?

Most amateur track sessions are less than 20-25 minutes long, you are more likely to hit traffic before you get 20 minutes of uninterrupted driving. I don't know what serious enthusiasts you are talking about, but most NASA TT drivers in the production classes run on relatively stock hardware with the exception of race pads (unless you have a crappy car). Heck, I have won a Redline Time Attack on smaller brakes than what I have in the 370. All you need is one hotlap, not twenty slow ones in most amateur track days. Obviously it isn't my money, but just a thought.

My 370z generated over 1.2G on the stock hardware with just pads. OEM pads with fancy rotors won't do much more than that. Heck even if it does, it wont be for long anyway.

my rotors were 600f after pulling off track, it got up to 1500, but it stabilize around 1300 to 1450

The point being made is consistency and control across ALL temperatures from cold to hot. The best brake systems provide the driver with total confidence under braking when pushing for that extra 50 feet before hitting the binders. You should be able to actually feel what is going on at the tires with your foot. One pro driver I have worked with described it as "making love to the brake pedal." With the car set up to his liking, he could pass any other Indycar driver under braking on road courses. OE systems aren't typically good bed partners for that sort of activity! ;)

Braking distances are limited by available tire traction (provided the front/rear bias is optimized, which is not the case for the OE system) and track conditions. The most effective brake systems will make adjustments to brake bias to get more out of the tires than the OE system is set up to do.

Time Attack is a different animal as only a few laps count -- kind of like qualifying without the fun of a race day! If you were peaking at 1500°F during a T/A, I would guess you were probably starting to crack OE rotors. Cool down laps are extremely important when running those temps on stock equipment.

Chris

I agree with you that race cars are entirely different story, but it is a total overkill for a street car that occasionally go to the track or just autox. Unless the car is heavily modded, the OE system with brake pads and fluids can easily survive a good session from an advanced driver. Obviously the more money you spent, the more miles and pad life you will get out of it. The question is, is it worth it? From a lap time point of view, a rotor will get you virtually zero.

I usually do 6 track events a year, I can tell you I have never cracked a rotor due to heat with the exception of the C6. I had to replace my first set on the 350Z after 2 years of tracking, they were eventually ruined by the HP+ I installed. This was after about 20 track days and 45K street miles. (Heck, I even cracked a brake line before rotors) On the C6, I had small surface cracks near the holes on the crossdrilled rotors. None of them were through the rotors, they were just surface cracks. I took care of the problem by simply getting a new set that have been cryo-treated. It lasted me enough for another 10 track days. My 370 came back home after 2.5 days of tracking, rotor shows no significant wear and no grooves.

Both of our viewpoints are actually pretty compatible. You are speaking from more to one end of the spectrum as far as driver style is concerned, and we deal with drivers from all over the spectrum. The fundamental truth is that brake upgrades are bolted to the car, but are made for the driver. Some find little benefit for the cost, while others claim it was the best upgrade they ever did to their car. So to say "it is a waste of money" could be true in one person's case, but entirely the opposite for many others. YMMV.

Chris

I've done VIR full course with a 350Z and BASE brakes. With Hawk HP+ pads I could get 4-5 laps before getting brake fade. My factory rotors lasted until 80,000 miles or so before I was getting vibration when braking. The last 20,000 miles or so I used HP+ pads for daily driving also, so if I had switched back to a less aggressive pad the rotors may have lasted a bit longer. From my experience, the 370Z with sport brakes should be MORE than track capable with the right pads and fluid and should last 80k-100k miles unless you use aggressive pads and do a lot track days. My fastest lap at VIR was a 2:27 with no mods other than brake pads, fluid, and 275 width tires on all 4 corners. I had puny brakes, the 14" brakes should be amazing.

The last time I checked, Brembo says "not for racing use" on their drilled and slotted rotors. So it seems that not even Brembo wants to advise using them for serious abuse.

Yup, do be careful if you overheat the brakes too much and too hard. I lost a brake line on my 350Z with base brakes after 20 hard track days and 45K miles.

My 370z could pull more Gs under braking than my 350z on the same brake pads (370 has 265 RE11 and 350 has 235 RA1s). I could also get a lot more laps out of the 370 before starting to get a hint of fade. My 370 on RE11 was 1.5 sec faster than my 350 on RA1s at VIR.

If I remember correctly, the RA1's are a far stickier tire than the RE11, so that is quite an improvement on brakes alone. I only had 8 track days and about 800 miles on my old Z. I wish I could have afforded more. Track driving is more addicting than crack I'm pretty sure.

I wouldn't say it is far stickier, but definitely stickier.

370z lap at VIR
YouTube - 0810 VIR 370z hotlap 217.AVI

350z lap at VIR (with traffic or should i say a-hole blocking me)
YouTube - 0907 VIR Nissan 350z blocked by BMW M3

I just pulled the datalog from 2007 with a 350 Enth (stock with XP10 pads) vs 370 sport (stock with XP10 pads)

http://a.imageshack.us/img823/5051/350370vir.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The top chart is the speed at different points at VIR (starting from the VIR sign at the S/F). The middle graph is the delta (difference between the two laps). The last one is the longitudinal G's. As you can see, the 235 RA1s were stickier than my 265/285 RE11 as indicated by the faster cornering speed (blue is 370 and red 350). You can see the 350 can start into the corner faster or at least at the same speed as the 370, of course the difference ends as soon as I hit the gas. As far as braking, you can see I can brake into the corner much later in the 370 than the 350 at the two heavy braking spot despite carrying 3-5 mph extra and having less grip. This translates to a peak of 1.29G in T1 vs 1.09G in T1 on the 350.