Carbotech Brake Pads Installed, WOW and ICE MODE???
 

In preparation for track day season, I replaced the stock sport pads with some Carbotech pads (XP10 front, XP8 rear). Following the DIY made the process very easy (with thanks to those who helped me realize the stock squealer bracket is not needed on the Carbotechs!). One thing that has bothered me about the Z is that mine always required a very firm pedal press to actually brake hard and get the antilock to kick in. Well, that's no longer the case!

The Carbotech pads bite like nothing I've ever experience before (first track pad experience, but wow). Where I would have to really exert myself to stop with the stock pads, the Carbotechs only require about 1/10th the pedal effort before they want to throw you through the windshield. The difference is night and day. I'll see how the fade factor improves next week.

One very interesting and potentially concerning finding occurred with a very fast, hard pedal stomp. The brakes bite ferociously, the antilock system engages, and then it felt like I entered the dreaded 'icing mode'. Knowing I couldn't burnish the pads on the street, I made a feeble effort going around the block a number of times. Hard panic stops always started with an abrupt, violent deceleration but then the antilock would come on and the braking force almost stopped. It truly felt like I was on ice and I actually rolled through one intersection. The sensation is exactly like having your antilocks come on while you're on a patch of ice, and you just stop very very slowly.

The pads aren't burnished yet, but the amazing initial bite makes me think this 'sliding' sensation is the damn icing mode we've been talking about in another thread. Have you guys with track pads noticed this phenomenon with a massive pedal stomp? The alternative is that the pads are losing grip without them being appropriately burnished yet, but I just don't feel like that's the issue.

Thoughts?

the dreaded ice mode..

there are a few threads about it already with a lot of info man.

And yes, the carbotechs are unbelievable, told ya ;)

You sure did :) Absolutely amazing pads. I don't want to take them off now.

As for ice mode...I read through those other threads a few days back which is why I'm curious if what I experienced is 'it'. The strange thing is that I could reproduce this every single time I hammered the brake pedal (other said it happened very sporadically). It would stop like a beast if I stayed out of ABS, but a few seconds of ABS turned into that glazed sliding feeling with no stopping. If this is really the ice mode, then the Z just doesn't tolerate prolonged, heavy ABS activation. I suppose one can threshold brake, treating ABS activation like wheel lockup in a non-ABS car. Scary schiesse though...I better not have that happen on the track!

Are you DDing this brake pad setup? If so, how's that going?

I don't think you will experience it on the track. The pads are overwhelming your street tires, and you are going much slower when burnishing them then you will be going on the track, and I think they will work out just fine. I believe the ice mode is something people see more in autocross.

Then again, I have brembos up front and was running ferodo pads. I use XP12/XP10 now, but didn't get any hot laps in with them before the oil cooler failed.

Re: "icing mode"...you broke those pads in before using them on the track, ya?

Not sure if this is at me, but if it is....no, haven't tracked yet. I plan to break the pads in on the highway to the track in the wee hours of the morning :excited:

I'm hoping the 'iced' sensation is just due to the need for burnishing. Looking at the rotors after my local spin, it appears the track pads just removed the stock pad material from my rotors rather than transferred any new material to them. I think I just resurfaced my rotors!

I'll report back on how the pads are going after next weekend. So far, they have me amazed with the difference in feel.

Carbotech claims they are rotor friendly and have non-corrosive dust making them usable as DD pads. The feel alone has me tempted to keep them on for a while beyond next week. The squeakiness doesn't bug me too much yet. Dust is...ummmm...substantial.

Does this mean I have to tell my wife that I need some Hoosiers?

Haha, yup. Tell her its not safe without race tires.

although, I'm really liking the Goodrich R1's. 90% of hoosier performance for 75% of the cost, and they are lasting pretty long too. I think I have about 9-10 track days on them and they still look and grip really good.

Oh yeah? Good to know Mike, thanks for the info.

I'm a big fan of the 888's.

I haven't tried them new. I would buy qualifying takeoffs used for my corvette, but they never really lasted more than a weekend. I know Sharif runs them too.

I run them daily on my old 350z, C6 and RX-8. They stop great, but they are so noisy that you probably won't be able to stand them for too long. They also dust a lot. if you care about wheel, I don't recommend it

The squeaking is minimal for me thus far. They are very dusty but Carbotech says the dust will not harm the wheel finish. It just looks like crap.

Yup, their pad material is not as abrasive as some others like the Cobalt's (which are also pretty good) so it won't destroy your wheel..I wouldn't let it cake over though so wash them often.

r888 are garbage in my opinion. i had it on a rx8 and c6. my 350 with ra1 shows higher cornering speed than the other two cars on r8888

R888 may not be the grippiest thing in the world, but they certainly last longer than most racing tires. Also...I don't know that having slightly lower corner speeds means they are garbage... they just have slightly lower corner speeds because they are meant to last longer.

i had used 3 sets of those tires on two different cars. i honestly dont feel them lasting longer or provide more grip than even my shaved ra1s. i absolutely cant stand those tires, and i am not the only one as the ra1 s are coming back. i have some datalogs and results that can backup my claim too. on a 3.5 miles course, my half worn r888 was only one sec faster than my d1 star spec, its sad. go with the r1s

Hmm yeah, but I have other folks who swear by the R888s who I know track their cars a lot too. Its all good, and I will take your opinion into account.

I'm really glad to read this, spearfish. I'm going to put my pads on today after I borrow a torque wrench from my brother in law. I was a little worried about cold performance despite what I had been reading... so a direct review like this is pretty awesome. :)

Glad to hear that the Carbotech love is spreading :) They know how to make a great pad for sure. I did not see what type of street tires you were using from your original post, but I can confirm that you very likely have too much pad for the street on the tires you are using. My experience has shown that XP8's work best with true street tires (like the RE11 or Dunlop Star Specs) and the compound should be increased as the tire grip is increasing as well. Especially once on track, you will find that your XP10's up front will work very well with R888's or NT01's. Even with street tires though, a car like the 370Z could still use the XP10's for the front on track.

I think what is happening is that the ABS is having a hard time modulating the brakes because the pads are so aggressive. Everytime the ABS pulses the wheel is locking which causes the ABS to release the pressure until it confirms the wheel is rolling again, so then it sends another pulse but it quickly re-locks. Unfortunately I don't think there is much you can do about this, the ABS system is simply calibrated for a much less aggressive pad. I had similar issues when I tried to use an aggressive pad on an auto-x course, didn't work out well at all. Stickier tires will certainly help, as the wheel will be less likely to lock. The problem also shows up any time there is a low traction situation such as sand, marbles (the rubber kind), bump etc. The ABS system simply doesn't allow enough lock up and IMO is dangerous. The Carbotech's will get better as the temperatures come up, but I think your going to have to reprogram your foot.

Agree with all of the above.

I'm still running my Potenzas which have been nice tires but can't handle the Carbotechs. Controlled pressure on the brakes yields nice stopping performance but the tires lock up with any energetic brake pedal pressure. Then the ABS kicks on, the car can't figure out what's happening, and the ABS system just $hits the bed and 'ices'.

Hey, spearfish, where did you get the brake grease? Or did you apply any?

Autozone has the Permatex high temp packets. They're about $2 each and the purple color is the high-temp grease. It was recommended by the Carbotech guys. I used about 1 1/3 packets to cover all four pads.

now if we can get them to sell the pads a little bit cheaper :)

I was really surprised by how quiet they are after we got 'em on. They do stop hard.

My front left wheel got a nice spray of air oil from the impact wrench and it looks like the gunmetal gray wheels. :P

If you go to their website - they recommend not running r-comps ... if your tires are too grippy and so are your brakes - then your tire will probably shred off the center of the rim...

Never used sub 100 treadwear tires with the XP10, but they never killed any Toyo RA1/R888 or street tires

where do you get that from? Carbotech recommended my xp12/10 combo. There is no such thing as too much grip or too much brakes

I ran my XP10/XP8 combo on the stock Bridgestone Potenzas today at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, MI. Let me just say this...incredible pads. Along with the fluid change to Motul RBF600, it was like a different car all together. The brakes performed flawlessly the entire day. Experiences like that makes one realize why non-horsepower upgrades are so invaluable. Going fast on this track was about three things: driver skill, tires, and brakes. I must say that's it's nice knowing that I can stop no matter what. No icing either today.

Pics and vids to follow in the Track forum later this week.

Where's the best place to get the Carbotech pads from? how much is the XP10/XP8 combo?

Try Injected Performance. They'll take care of you.

don't forget Forged Performance either.

I'm in love with these pads. Two track days so far and still going strong.

Awesome review! I just ordered XP10's all around with Motul RBF600 fluid amd I'm running RE-11's 285/255 tires for my upcoming Pocono track day. Do you think this setup will do well?

yea

:tup: