:rofl2:

Probably right, but i can't drink alcohol.:shakes head:

Here mass maybe this will help you. As I said people used to always comment on how ti springs felt different/better than steel and often commented as being "plusher". Now that these new alloy springs are out, which is what swift is and I'm sure it's similar to what I'm using on my bike. They have the same advantage in weight as Ti and I would not doubt similar frequency responses either.

WHY TI?

Good info, and also good point about it being plusher oppose to softer. That i believe is the correct term. But this doesn't explain how it changes its specific force output when comparing two similarly rated springs. It only explains for any specific rate, you have less mass and subsequently more available travel. Would this actually make 400ib/in rated spring respond differently? Possibly, but what is being changed here dynamically? Wheel rate? The springs mass is balanced 50/50 between unsprung and sprung mass, so 2-5ibs loss in mass on the unsprung side would make a huge difference on its inertia over bumps. The other caveat is fatigue resistance and resistance to sag. Both of these go back to what i said earlier.

So in actuality the new spring would actually be stiffer, possibly resulting in a smoother more responsive wheel control. This intern is misconceived as "softer", but as you pointed out, it is actually "plusher". :iagree:

Similarly to reducing the mass by adding smaller diameter and lighter wheels and tires, the overall change here is a reduction in weight and inertia.

I don't think there is a difference in force output andI don't believe anyone here is actually thinking that. I believe this whole thing got derailed because of nitpicking terminology. I don't believe anyone is actually claiming swifts are "softer" what they mean is they ride more sensitive and give a perceived "softer" or probably more appropriately named "plusher" ride. This allows a user to jump up one rate without having the added "harshness" when doing so.

As you stated yes they will have less unsprung mass (although I'm not actually sure if that's right, is 50% the spring considered unsprung?) allowing the suspension to react quicker and just like wheels/rotors and everything else which all drastically help suspension.

As for an old vs new spring the spring on my bike was only one season old and had about 1-2 turns of preload (which in less than 1/16 and in on this shock) and unlike a vehicle there is no load on them without a rider (the rider is the main mass) so as for it being fatigued after only one season and being my dedicated dh bike it only sees about 6-8 trips a season so I highly doubt it was fatigued when I changed to the alloy spring.

As stated though it is a very slight difference but I'll bet the weight savings difference for this size size spring isn't as much as a car spring.

The last part is still very debatable. Some companies are claiming that TI alloy springs have a cycling lifetime 50% greater than chrome silicone and vanadium steel. And even 6-8 rides is a long time. Sag can set in within weeks if not days of riding. Not to mention, even brand new cars/bikes already have several thousand oscillations before you even buy it.

Also i'm still not understanding your logic on your preloading methods. But if it works i have no qualms lol :tiphat:

Not sure how it's arguable that the rider is the main mass when the bike weighs 36lbs and sits at zero sag without rider.

Thought you were talking about a motorcycle lol..wooops :icon14:

That makes more sense, i thought you were talking about a motorcycle this whole time lmao.

36LBS with a coil spring? What kind of slacked out gnarliness are you riding?

You asking what bike? It's a 2011 Santa Cruz v10 carbon (before they had the carbon swing arm though so it weighs a little more). A large chunk is the damn dh casing tires and if it weren't for a handful of super rocky trails at northstar I could get away with a mid casing but the last time I tried I ruined the tire and then destroyed the rim. I think it's maybe less than 36 though but can't remember last time I weighed it somewhere just below 36. Other bike is the new Nomad 4 but that's air sprung so no coil spring debate on that one.

Very nice! How are you liking the new nomad? I haven't had a chance to throw a leg over a SC but I hear their quality is top notch. Never tried a coil either for that matter. I'm currently on a transition scout , its really fun for the moderate east coast stuff around me.

Out of curiosity jhill. Do you ride professionally? That seems like a crazy amount of money for entertainment purposes.

Mountain bikes can be $$$$$$. :eek: I got over $3,000 in one. Get into time trials or something like that. The frames alone can be over $7,000. Then add another $4,000 on top of that. :eek: :shakes head:

I know, that's why i was wandering if it was for competition use. Spending that much for entertainment usage seems crazy if you aren't getting paid to do it. 3k is the most i'd spend.

I've got a lot of $$$$$ into my road bike. Carbon fiber is expensive. :icon17:

It's an expensive rabbit hole to go down. Sucks you right in. I have more in my bicycle than I paid for a new yz250f :ugh2:

After getting into mountain bikes, things like $4k volk's don't scare me away anymore. Probably not a good thing :icon17:

I'd agree to that. All rabbit holes are expensive. The question is how worth it is falling into it lol. With cars, motorcycles and houses the gains seem longer lasting in some cases. I just can't wrap my head around spending that much on a bike that requires human power to work lol.

Not professional just my main hobby. Before I left the auto field I could not afford a nice car and to really enjoy the z you have to pay for a track day which adds up real quick. My bike is free to ride anywhere, anytime. So always had a cheap car and expensive bike, plus I had been in the bike industry and kept contacts so I got them for much less $$$.

Also mass think of it like this 8k gets you the f1 of bikes that are no different than what the pros get to enjoy. Now how expensive is an f1 car in comparison?

Not having ridden a transition I can't say how it compares but I'll say the nomad 4 is amazing in every way. Coming off a nomad two this thing climbs better than the nomad two and descends just like my v10. It truly is an amazing bike and if it weren't for my v10 being a 26" which holds next to no value today I could probably sell the v10 and really not miss it at the parks which I could not say about the nomad 2.

Coil vs air depends a lot on the bikes leverage ratio, there really isn't one is better than the other, don't get caught into the coil hype that's going on right now. A coil shock on the right bike is amazing but a coil shock on the wrong bike is equally crap.

A F1 car can go over 200mph and pull 5g's through a corner at over 120mph.

apples and oranges :tup:

And also cost 950 million dollars. There are other cars that cost probably 1/32 the cost that can do over 200mph. Try and find a bike that cost 1/32 the cost of a bike doing the stuff in Red Bull rampage and get back to me.

Not trying to say bikes aren't expensive but you really do get what you pay for. The margins on bikes isn't even close to the margins on your street car (no 350% mark up).

Also keep in mind part of that cost is a lifetime no questions asked warranty for the wheels and a lifetime manufacturer defect warranty for frame with a lifetime "no fault" warranty (wholesale replacement).

So think of it as lifetime defect for the engine due to manufacture defect and wholesale replacement for over rev etc

The lifetime warranty is only valid if you don't fall off the side of a mountain or get hit by on coming traffic lol.

Bikes have zero protection. F1 cars have the absolute highest crash safety standards.

So sure you can replace the bike. But you'd be hard pressed replacing body parts.

This topic has officially gone due east.

.

Reviving this thread, who's actually gotten the Greddy X KW coilovers that can chime in on their experience with them? I am going to sell my Koni Yellows and was looking at the KW V3 but then I saw the Greddy X was designed with KW and held to the same standards. The lower price and the fact that KW designed it to the same standards got my curiosity but I have searched and haven't that anyone has gotten them.