Wheel and brake pedal shake
 

I've been searching the forum for days looking for any leads on this issue.

I picked up a 2010 Sport with Akebonos up a month or so back. It shakes really bad when I brake above 40 mph. Ok, no big deal I'll do the brakes and rotors.

So I replaced the front rotors with the slotted drilled rotors from Z1 here:
https://www.z1motorsports.com/z1-pro...no-p-4517.html

And I also did the pads all the way around with stoptech pads also from Z1. I flushed the brake fluid and replaced with DOT3 as specified by Nissan.

It was all good! For about a week and a half. Then the shake back back slowly. About a week into it starting to shake it's about as bad as it was the day I brought it home. Now I find out Z1 does not warranty the damn rotors. :confused:

I also just replaced the tires with michelin pilot super sport. It's still shaking bad.

I just ordered a rebuild kit from Z1 and I'm going to try to rebuild the calipers and turn the rotors. I really really didn't want to turn my rotors but apparently I have to as Z1 has NO WARRANTY. I'm probably not going to be buying anything from them again.

Anyways, I'm just curious if anyone has had this issue and what else I should check.

Edit: I should add I did immediately take the car out and bed in the brakes after installing them. Did 6 pulls up to 60 and down to 10 mph. I tried bedding them in again after the shake started coming back and had no luck getting it to go away.

I just DD the car about 20 miles a day to work and back. No track time.

We just had it on a lift at the tire shop and the wheels spin freely so I don't think it's a stuck piston.

What pads? If they were these:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...FdgKgQodcecAOg

then they are known to leave deposits on rotors. Bed them again and see if it changes the shaking. The shaking may not be gone, but if it changes the shaking, then it's deposits being left on the rotors. I'm not sure how the venting/slotting on the rotor changes this behavior. My *guess* is that since these pads leave deposits when they are run too cold, and the vented/slotted rotor runs cooler than a solid rotor, then it's putting you in the "too cold" temp range more often, so you're more likely to leave deposits on your rotors.

These pads get great reviews, but you need to be pushing them pretty hard for a street car in order for them to not leave deposits on your rotors.

Did you have to make any sudden emergency braking maneuvers during that week and a half? Do you ride the brakes a lot? Did you bed the pads properly? New rotors needing to be turned in just a week and a half sounds like bad bedding or extremely poor braking habits. Not that you seem oblivious enough to do either of those but just some thoughts to consider.

Pad deposits increase with heat, which is why you have to brake hard to bed the brakes - the heat is what causes that initial layer of pad material to be deposited on the rotor. So your comments that deposits are occurring because the rotors are "too cold" makes no sense :icon14:

The common misnomer of "warped rotors" typically happens when you heat up the brakes (like in an emergency braking situation or 'riding' the brakes) and then come to a complete stop with the pads sitting in one place on the rotors. The hot pad material continues to transfer to the rotor in that one spot, creating a high point on the rotor surface which is the reason for shuddering or shaking during braking.

I believe those are the same, I got them here:
https://www.z1motorsports.com/brakes...ds-p-5934.html

I wasn't aware they were known to leave deposits. Thanks! Does 60 to 10 mph a few times sound like enough to bed them in?

As per RadioFlyer (love that nick) and JARblue, it's probably deposits on the rotors. It's possible that the problem is a worn part (bearing, bushing, rod end) but these will usually cause vibration at other times and are more often felt in the steering wheel.

Re-assess your braking techniques. Plenty of info/tips on this site and others. If the site's search doesn't work well for you, try any of the big web search engines and add "site:the370z.com" to your search string.

AFAIK no manufacturers (even Nissan) warrant rotors. They are a consumable and are subject to misuse and abuse.

Also, I don't believe that you can 'turn' slotted rotors.

I agree with what the others have said....this sounds like pad deposit build-up. Another driving technique to consider is to keep your foot off the brake after you have come to a complete stop. This will reduce the heat soak and deposit build-up, especially after hard driving.

I not going to get into this because everyone here will have their opinion, but if you Google Baer brakes and go to there tech section and read thru there rotor seasoning and brake bedding you'll have a better understanding of the procedure.
Personally after replacing pads and rotors on the Z recently I drove the car for week normally to season the rotors and burn out all the crap before I bedded in. I have had no issues.

Yeah, I definitely never stay on the brake. I did this in my 350z (enthusiast so regular brakes) and the calipers/rotors lasted past 100k miles.

I don't think it's tie rod ends or bushings, as the brakes were nice and smooth after first installing the new rotors and bedding them.

I'm not in the market for brakes just yet but just read through that section.... some great, detailed info right there :tiphat:

Is there any advantage to babying things for a while or is it one of those just-how-I've-always-done-it things? I've always bedded immediately after a pad/rotor change. But that's just how I've always done it. ;)

For safety's sake....you should bed. This process is what mates the surface of the pad to the surface of the rotor. Until everything is fully seated and surfaces match, you will not have full braking ability. Plus it cleans old deposits off your rotors for the new pads.

I'd guess he's going by the recommendations in the Baer Brakes Tech section... read through it, it does a good job (IMO) of explaining the importance of each step...

Those directions seem to be aimed at high-performance components (and a specific type). But I could be wrong. It still seems to me that for OEM-grade and not so hi-po components, immediate break-in is the way to go. BuckeyeZ agrees but I still have an open mind about it.

Good point and I think you might be right. Although it also might not be the worst thing following that advice... Informative none-the-less.


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I agree with all the comments here that it is likely due to deposits on the rotors. Try re-bedding. For street pads that aren't known to leave deposits, consider one of these options:

- Carbotech 1521
- Ferodo DS2500
- Project Mu

I also recommend staying away from drilled rotors, since they are prone to cracking. Blanks will be most affordable, and you can easily turn them if necessary.

So basically you guys are saying I didn't successfully bed in my brakes by doing 6 60 to 10 pulls??

Not exactly. Deposits are, by far, the most common reason for your symptoms but you may be dealing with something else.

Bed as per manufacturer's recommendations (and season, too, if called for). For "normal" brakes/rotors, 2-4 runs is all it usually takes.

I just took it out and did 5 more after a set of three easier light stops to warm everything up. It's still just as bad, tons of judder.

I decided to put it up on jack stands and see if both wheels move freely. The passenger side front is nice and smooth when I spin it by hand. The driver side when pushed the same way stops within a quarter turn after I let go. Definately seems to stop too quickly to me, when compared to the passenger side.

Also I forgot about this part. I can hear a grumble noise coming from the front when driving at highway speeds and only when turning slightly right. When left I don't get the noise. May be related.

When bedding I did feel like it was going to the right slightly, but that could just be my perspective being on the driver side. The wheel didn't seem to pull and stayed straight.

I don't know what a wheel bearing going bad sounds like. In all my years I've never managed to destroy one.

I think you can stop worrying about deposits on the rotors.

Sounds like it might be a wheel bearing. Pretty easy to check. Google is your friend.

A buddy of mine says the rotor may be out of square or the faces are not parallel. Ie, you got a bad one from the manufacturer.

Yeah, could be. Good thing I got them from Z1 and they offer zero freaking warranty.

I'm gonna put the dial indicator on the rotor and then the wheel bearing this weekend. At this point it's the only way to tell.

Worst comes to worst I'll turn the old rotors and give them a try.

FWIW, you should baby it for a week or so whenever you change pad compounds (e.g. ceramic to metallic) because you want to get rid of the old pad material layer before bedding in the new pads. You don't want two layers of different materials on the rotor, which is what bedding different compound pads immediately will do.

Of course, as already pointed out, this isn't necessary for most street pads, which should be bed immediately :driving:

OP, if the dial indicator says the rotor is out, call up Z1 and explain that it appears as though you got bad rotor. Also ask them what the starting width is and check it against yours so you can demonstrate very little wear along with the mileage on them. Explain that you weren't able to bed properly due to the defect. They are very big in this community and if its a manufacturer defect, they should take care of you.

Just a thought but I have seen rotors warp a week or two after replacement when the wheel lug nuts were not torqued to spec, or torqued in the incorrect sequence or brought to full torque in one pass rather than in stages. Impact guns are notorious for warping new rotors.

6-60 to 10 stops. It took much more heat for my XP8's to bed in. I really had to get after them and get them hot. The first time I jumped on my brakes the car went left and right like crazy. It took a couple of time of that for that process to be completed. Then the casual drive around for 15-20min to cool them off. Did you torque your lug nuts down to the proper setting? I have always used 85ft/lb's on Nissans.

Yep always use my old click type snap on torque wrench.

Ok, dug into it last night.

On the driver side I checked the runout and found .020 on the rotor! Ouch! I removed the caliper and rotor, cleaned the hub with a scotch bright pad until it shined. Checked the wheel bearing as per the Timkin recommended process and found little to no play whatsoever. Turning by hand it is smooth and does not make any concerning noise.

I reinstalled the rotor, checked again. Got twenty thou again. I added marks at the highest and lowest points on the lateral runout. Removed the rotor and turned it on the hub by 90 degrees or as close to that as the lugs would allow. I checked again and still got 20 and the marks on the rotor still lined up so this tells me without a doubt the rotor is bad and the hub is fine.

Now I also moved the dial indicator to the other side of the rotor and checked it. I get the same amount of deflection on the inside of the rotor, also in the same direction. This tells me that the rotor is not straight, it is 'warped' as it it is not bulging. If the issue was pad deposits I would see a bulge, not a warp. Right?

I haven't tried the passenger side but it seems to be spinning freely so I'm focusing on the driver side right now. The driver side when free spun with the wheel on it seems to drag on the pad and slow down quite quickly.

I hear you, and generally I agree, but when you consider that if you bed in brakes incorrectly, you get deposits. So daily driving the pads on the street in an operating temp colder than they are designed for (even if the box says it's fine), would start to heat the pads, but not go through the whole "bedding" procedure, so it would leave deposits. Basically, the consensus on these pads are that as a daily driven pad, they start to heat up and act like they are bedding in again, but then since you're daily driving them, you are coming to a full stop, sitting at a light or whatever, and then cruising for a couple blocks, and then stopping again, and then shutting the car off. Without going through the whole heating/cooling cycle, you're just improperly bedding them. Which leaves deposits. I think it's a problem with the pads because there are plenty of other street/autox pads that don't do this.

Regardless, if you've tried numerous times to bed them, and the shake hasn't changed, then yes, it might be a manufacturing defect on the rotor. The odd thing is that you mentioned in your original post that when you first put on the rotors/pads that they didn't shake. That the shaking started after a week or so. If it was a manufacturing defect, you would have noticed the shaking right away. I've always bedded my pads by doing 10 stops in rapid succession from 60-5mph (not coming to a complete stop), and then immediately cruising on the freeway for 20 mins to fully cool them. If it still shakes after the cooling time, do it again. If the shaking still hasn't changed, then I guess it could be the rotor- but I've personally never seen an actual warped rotor, just ones with a lot of deposits. But if that's the case, do all of your same measurements, but get it on video and send it to Z1 as proof of a defect.

Another thing you could try would be to swap your pads from your left caliper to your right caliper, re-bed them and see if anything changes. Good luck!

Ok well I rebuilt my driver side front akebono caliper and it seems to have fixed it!

Went out and did another bed in and the rotor is nice and dark now where last time it wasn't. I ordered up a wheel bearing to drop in and see if that fixes the weird noise when turning on the freeway. It seems to have a little more runout on the hub face than I like anyways.

Another update. I replaced the driver side wheel bearing and the rotor now has 0 run-out. Also the roaring noise when I veer to the right on the freeway is gone.

Thanks everyone for all the input!

Nice work on tracking down and fixing the issue.

:iagree:

And thanks for following up :tup: :tiphat:

Make sure that the wheel lug nuts are torqued with a torque wrench in stages up to full torque and that they are tightened in the proper sequench. Changed many rotors that warped due to improper wheel nut tightening procedures.

Awesome, glad you got it sorted!

So the bearing was the culprit. Having similar issue, any braking from 40mph and on up causes shaking in the steering wheel, only on the drivers side. Best way I can describe it is, it feels as if the break pad is skipping, if that makes any sense. I was thinking wheel balancing, rotors or worse case scenario suspension components. There are no other symptoms though for me to think its a suspension issue. Now this has me thinking a wheel bearing. Ill have to get it looked at soon and do the spin test as you did.

When you say rebuilt the caliper, do you mean you got a reseal kit? Or you actually replaced parts of the caliper?

I have a 2010 Nismo and I have steering wheel and seat vibration at certain speeds, and under braking. The car pulls right as well. Here is what I have don't to try and fix the problem:

New tires
Road force balance
New rotors and pads
New brake fluid & several bleeds

To answer any obvious pieces of advice:

I've ensured tire pressure is always the correct pressure
I've had several alignments and tire balances.
The old rotors/pads had this problem and now have been replaced.
Rotors/pads were imbedded properly.
Pads have even wear as far as I can tell.

What is next in figuring out how to fix the steering wheel/seat vibration under braking and not braking? As well as the pulling right under braking.

I replaced the seals with a caliper rebuild kit. That said, given the stuff you've already done, you should check your wheel hubs, especially on an older car.